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Black_Jaque
Guest
It’s kind of difficult to remove the “parent” from parenting. Unfortunately all the parenting experts seem to have succeeded in doing so.
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Meggie
Guest
I got spanked as a kid (errmm…well ages 3-5
) and I turned out fine. Its about feeling bad for wrongs. As small child can identfy only bad and good. but if there is no consequences then there is no reason to do things that mommy or daddy don’t like.
using a hand should be the limit, tho, a spoon grows into bigger things
) and I turned out fine. Its about feeling bad for wrongs. As small child can identfy only bad and good. but if there is no consequences then there is no reason to do things that mommy or daddy don’t like.using a hand should be the limit, tho, a spoon grows into bigger things
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The_Rigbys
Guest
As Catholics, I think we agree that “modelling God’s love” means modelling both His mercy and His justice. The question is: How best to do this? Personally, I believe there’s a lot of leeway in this area. On the topic at hand, I don’t think the Church teaches – even “unofficially” – that spanking is a) required, or b) wrong.
SteveG:
As Avery Cardinal Dulles says,
“The early Christian community …] approve of the divine punishment meted out to Ananias and Sapphira when they are rebuked by Peter for their fraudulent action (Acts 5:1-11).”
pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/reader/17.php3
I’m not saying that errant children should be struck dead (or eaten by a lion, a la Hilaire Belloc
). I’m just saying that God does use his “divine justice” to punish sinners in the NT. This would seem to undermine the claim made above.
I still think this statement is off-base, though. In context (“PWG”, pp. 355-6):
"4. Spanking flies in the face of good science.
The Church respects good science because it simply describes the natural order created by God. …]
This validity of science extends fully to the study of human psychology. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines it as “the science of mind and behavior … concerned with the investigation of behavior and [human] experience by means of controlled observation, experimentation and measurement.” The role of Catholic psychologists is to practice their profession to the highest scientific standards and interpret their findings in a way consistent with the principles of their faith. God’s supernatural and natural truths cannot conflict. It is predictable, then, that modern psychology and the tenets of the Catholic Faith are utterly harmonious on the subject of discipline."
I simply don’t believe his claim that “modern psychology” is a totally reliable guide to God’s natural truths. Maybe this would be true in some ideal world, where there was no such thing as faulty research, selection bias, etc. As it stands, though, modern psychologists – Catholic or otherwise – often can’t even agree with each other.
For instance, Judith Rich Harris’s meta-analysis of studies suggests that the effects of spanking depends on the culture. For American children of white European ancestry, spanking is linked to anti-social behavior (ASB). But for American children of Black and Asian ancestry, spanking is linked to less ASB.
How can this be? Well, Ms. Harris claims that spanking is considered more acceptable in the Black and Asian communities. Therefore, Black and Asian parents who spank are more likely to be conformist, and less likely to display anti-social behavior themselves. A genetic tendency for “going with the flow” might be passed along to their children.
Spanking is just one example of how Catholic parents – in good faith, and with careful attention to the evidence – can come to very different conclusions about what’s best for their family. Same goes for other issues, such as home birth, home schooling, co-sleeping, and vegetarianism. It’s fine to promote our family’s choices in these areas…as long as we present them as our personal view, and not the authoritative teaching of the Church.
Vive la difference.
God bless,
Mrs. R.
I agree that it’s less evident in the NT, but I don’t think it’s gone altogether. For instance, in Acts 5, Ananias and Sapphira are struck dead by God.
As Avery Cardinal Dulles says,
“The early Christian community …] approve of the divine punishment meted out to Ananias and Sapphira when they are rebuked by Peter for their fraudulent action (Acts 5:1-11).”
pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/reader/17.php3
I’m not saying that errant children should be struck dead (or eaten by a lion, a la Hilaire Belloc
). I’m just saying that God does use his “divine justice” to punish sinners in the NT. This would seem to undermine the claim made above.I’m sorry if my style was too sarcastic.
I still think this statement is off-base, though. In context (“PWG”, pp. 355-6):"4. Spanking flies in the face of good science.
The Church respects good science because it simply describes the natural order created by God. …]
This validity of science extends fully to the study of human psychology. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines it as “the science of mind and behavior … concerned with the investigation of behavior and [human] experience by means of controlled observation, experimentation and measurement.” The role of Catholic psychologists is to practice their profession to the highest scientific standards and interpret their findings in a way consistent with the principles of their faith. God’s supernatural and natural truths cannot conflict. It is predictable, then, that modern psychology and the tenets of the Catholic Faith are utterly harmonious on the subject of discipline."
I simply don’t believe his claim that “modern psychology” is a totally reliable guide to God’s natural truths. Maybe this would be true in some ideal world, where there was no such thing as faulty research, selection bias, etc. As it stands, though, modern psychologists – Catholic or otherwise – often can’t even agree with each other.
For instance, Judith Rich Harris’s meta-analysis of studies suggests that the effects of spanking depends on the culture. For American children of white European ancestry, spanking is linked to anti-social behavior (ASB). But for American children of Black and Asian ancestry, spanking is linked to less ASB.
How can this be? Well, Ms. Harris claims that spanking is considered more acceptable in the Black and Asian communities. Therefore, Black and Asian parents who spank are more likely to be conformist, and less likely to display anti-social behavior themselves. A genetic tendency for “going with the flow” might be passed along to their children.
Spanking is just one example of how Catholic parents – in good faith, and with careful attention to the evidence – can come to very different conclusions about what’s best for their family. Same goes for other issues, such as home birth, home schooling, co-sleeping, and vegetarianism. It’s fine to promote our family’s choices in these areas…as long as we present them as our personal view, and not the authoritative teaching of the Church.
Vive la difference.
God bless,
Mrs. R.
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Airkill1985
Guest
Spanking is a good thing. I am nineteen and because my parents believed in spanking I turned out to be very strong in my Catholic beliefs and a very well behaved and hard working young man. I’m not saying that a spanking should be used in all instances I’m just saying that it has a necessary place in bringing up a child. One thing though one whack is often sufficient and never more then three.
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Sonya
Guest
I had a hard time spanking my child. I spanked her a little before she turned 2. I am getting one of Popcaks books to see alternatives to spanking, because I really don’t like spanking her. This is also because she hits back sometimes and I end up having to spank her again. I must be doing it wrong. I have a hard time spanking to the point where she feels it and sometimes I don’t save it as a last resort. I want to learn another way.
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daniellet
Guest
Hi,
I love the Popcak books. I have a link for you too. I have never actually read or seen these materials, but Girls and Boys Town doesn’t promote spanking (and they have a great reputation). I would bet you’d find very practical info here:
girlsandboystown.org/store/products.asp?dept=8&title=Parenting
Danielle
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Sonya
Guest
Thank you for that information. I will look into that link for more books. God bless you.
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mom2boyz
Guest
I am a huge Dr. Ray Guarendi fan. The man has 10 adopted children. You don’t just get adopted children by going to the store or through a night of passion. It is hard work to be throughly examined through the process called a homestudy. I know because I have been through that process. Dr. Ray leaves whether to spank up to the parents. He does use it, but he also advocates other forms of discipline. I’m currently using sentence writing with my son. It is great for him. He writes about what he did wrong. It helps him with his penmanship and time management. Parenting is hard work. Support and gentle guidance from others is alway appreciated. As for spanking I’ve know those who do and those who don’t. Both have great kids, but then they have parents who are very invested in raising Christ-centered children.
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cove
Guest
A childhood friend of mine was always swatted with a wooden spoon. If you knew him you would know why
. One day is mother went looking for the spoon but could not find it. Come to find out my friend had broken it in half and hidden it. If I remember it right, I believe that was the worst spanking he ever got. OOO boy was his mom mad
.
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cove
Guest
I like this idea.
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Maresiedotes
Guest
My children are grown now, thank God!!!
But I can look back on moments when I truly didn’t know what to do. The one thing that I knew then and realize even more so now, is that Christ was there, giving me the grace to be a good Catholic mother.
Prayer is sooooo important for all of you who are still in the thick of things. It helps to remember that Jesus is there with you…picture him standing next to you as you are trying to teach your children. Ask Him for the wisdom and the strength to do what is right. Ask Him for His heart as you go through your busy days.
It’s HARD to be a good parent, and sometimes it’s easier not to do anything at all, but that’s not what He wants of us. Place your children in His hands, and let Him help you get the parenting done
according to His will.
God bless you ALL, spankers and non-spankers alike. God loves you for caring so much about your little ones!!!
Mary
But I can look back on moments when I truly didn’t know what to do. The one thing that I knew then and realize even more so now, is that Christ was there, giving me the grace to be a good Catholic mother.
Prayer is sooooo important for all of you who are still in the thick of things. It helps to remember that Jesus is there with you…picture him standing next to you as you are trying to teach your children. Ask Him for the wisdom and the strength to do what is right. Ask Him for His heart as you go through your busy days.
It’s HARD to be a good parent, and sometimes it’s easier not to do anything at all, but that’s not what He wants of us. Place your children in His hands, and let Him help you get the parenting done
according to His will.
God bless you ALL, spankers and non-spankers alike. God loves you for caring so much about your little ones!!!
Mary
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
Oh, boy, oh, boy. This is a tough one. First off, if you don’t have to, then don’t. If spanking is not a last resort, it becomes an atmosphere, not a discipline tool. Besides, the truth is, some kids don’t need it.
It is very hard to be consistent with spanking, to not let it be about how angry you are (which varies by the day and is out of the child’s control), how tired you are, and so on. I have also observed with my children that there is more child-on-child violence after spankings. It just makes hitting an option as far as how one deals with frustration at an errant person.
Having said that, our boys know that at some point, with fair warning, it is possible to exhaust all discipline options so that that one is a possibility. That is the one at which the white flag goes up. These days, the prospect is enough to make the white flag go up. Still, I don’t think I can claim to not spank because I only need to use the threat. No threat works if you’re not willing to do it.
Having said THAT… that will not last forever. There gets to be an age at which a child is too old to spank. What then? Discipline is about making disciples, which implies adherence to rules in respect to a relationship. If you can’t spank while maintaining that disciple relationship, spanking is not for you. Also, spanking is embarrassing. If at all possible, do it only in private.
If you are going to avoid spanking, though, you are going to need some non-violent discipline that is really unpleasant–and this is CHILD SPECIFIC. You have to take note of what consequences your child dislikes. You will undoubtedly need someplace (usually their bedroom) to send them that is a cultural wasteland, and you must also willing to suspend priveleges and stick to it, even when it is also a punishment upon yourself. (Like getting somewhere late because you had to take the time to follow through on consequences.)
One final note: if you do not impose disciplinary measures until you get angry or until you start shouting, your kids will not listen until you start shouting or showing other signs of anger. Let them know what the consequences of bad behavior are, then impose the consequences matter-of-factly. It is not realistic to expect you will never have to repeat yourself, but avoid giving numerous chances to comply. You will have a quieter household and children you can discipline in front of any soul in the world.
It is very hard to be consistent with spanking, to not let it be about how angry you are (which varies by the day and is out of the child’s control), how tired you are, and so on. I have also observed with my children that there is more child-on-child violence after spankings. It just makes hitting an option as far as how one deals with frustration at an errant person.
Having said that, our boys know that at some point, with fair warning, it is possible to exhaust all discipline options so that that one is a possibility. That is the one at which the white flag goes up. These days, the prospect is enough to make the white flag go up. Still, I don’t think I can claim to not spank because I only need to use the threat. No threat works if you’re not willing to do it.
Having said THAT… that will not last forever. There gets to be an age at which a child is too old to spank. What then? Discipline is about making disciples, which implies adherence to rules in respect to a relationship. If you can’t spank while maintaining that disciple relationship, spanking is not for you. Also, spanking is embarrassing. If at all possible, do it only in private.
If you are going to avoid spanking, though, you are going to need some non-violent discipline that is really unpleasant–and this is CHILD SPECIFIC. You have to take note of what consequences your child dislikes. You will undoubtedly need someplace (usually their bedroom) to send them that is a cultural wasteland, and you must also willing to suspend priveleges and stick to it, even when it is also a punishment upon yourself. (Like getting somewhere late because you had to take the time to follow through on consequences.)
One final note: if you do not impose disciplinary measures until you get angry or until you start shouting, your kids will not listen until you start shouting or showing other signs of anger. Let them know what the consequences of bad behavior are, then impose the consequences matter-of-factly. It is not realistic to expect you will never have to repeat yourself, but avoid giving numerous chances to comply. You will have a quieter household and children you can discipline in front of any soul in the world.
M
MariaG
Guest
We have 3 children 14, 11 and 2. Although you probably got enough advice, I will agree with some of the other people who already posted.
It depends on the child. I tend to use spanking for safety issues. You must get there attention NOW. You can work later about not doing whatever it was that was not safe, but you MUST prevent it from happening again. Things I consider safety issues? Running away from me in store and hiding, running across the street, getting out of their carseat while the car is moving. All these things can be reinforced in other non physical ways, but you I feel I must give them something to think about while we work on those other things in the weeks to come. I do not think it should be the last thing you do, I think its value is its shock impact, an attention getter. I also think there are much better things you can do to get the attention of older children. I consider spanking to be a tool of the (again depending on the child) 2 - 7 age range. Once they get older the discipline in my house centers around gameboys, tv, and early bedtimes.
God Bless
It depends on the child. I tend to use spanking for safety issues. You must get there attention NOW. You can work later about not doing whatever it was that was not safe, but you MUST prevent it from happening again. Things I consider safety issues? Running away from me in store and hiding, running across the street, getting out of their carseat while the car is moving. All these things can be reinforced in other non physical ways, but you I feel I must give them something to think about while we work on those other things in the weeks to come. I do not think it should be the last thing you do, I think its value is its shock impact, an attention getter. I also think there are much better things you can do to get the attention of older children. I consider spanking to be a tool of the (again depending on the child) 2 - 7 age range. Once they get older the discipline in my house centers around gameboys, tv, and early bedtimes.
God Bless
B
BLB_Oregon
Guest
Black Jaque:
The analogy between war and spanking may be a good one. Let it be as rare as possible, let it be just, let it be done in a way that makes a truce possible in the end, but realize that sometimes it may have to happen… that to fear it may in fact breed tyrants.
Anybody who’s been in a sandbox will tell you that kids do not have to be taught violence, that’s for sure.
The analogy between war and spanking may be a good one. Let it be as rare as possible, let it be just, let it be done in a way that makes a truce possible in the end, but realize that sometimes it may have to happen… that to fear it may in fact breed tyrants.
J
jess7396
Guest
BLB_Oregon
Thank you for a very even handed, logical, thoughtful post on this issue. Although spanking is not an option we are willing to use, I think your post made perfect sense .
Thank you for a very even handed, logical, thoughtful post on this issue. Although spanking is not an option we are willing to use, I think your post made perfect sense
.
R
robertaf
Guest
Greetings Church
I am a mom of two grown sons and a grandmother of 4.
I don’t think discipline, whether its spanking or other forms is a bit hard.
I do not believe in asking more than once (if I am within hearing range) and I know you must be consistant.
I made sure my kids and my grandchildren know the ground rules. For example, I take all 4 to the market with me. They know they have to follow the rules. Stay right beside my basket, no running around the store, don’t beg for anything and do not grab things off the shelf. Very easy rules to follow. Sometimes they get a reward if they obey but not always. They are always good. No Problems.
I spanked. It suited both my two sons and myself.
Now, I was an abused kid, big time. I know the difference between a spanking and abuse. I do NOT abuse nor have I ever.
We reached a time when permissiveness was the popular thing, thanks to Dr Spock. Social groups and the courts over reacted and abused their own authority reacting to what they interpreted as abuse. Children have been “kidnapped” from their parents with no evidence but only a suspiction of abuse usually because an anonomous person has called in. Oh yes, I worked directly for Investigators for the District Attorney. This has and does happen.
It will until parents start taking their rights back.
We do have to protect children in harms way but we need to use good sense in doing it.
The end result of all of this is that children, teachers and other school authority is afraid to discipline at all.
We all see the results of that.
I am a mom of two grown sons and a grandmother of 4.
I don’t think discipline, whether its spanking or other forms is a bit hard.
I do not believe in asking more than once (if I am within hearing range) and I know you must be consistant.
I made sure my kids and my grandchildren know the ground rules. For example, I take all 4 to the market with me. They know they have to follow the rules. Stay right beside my basket, no running around the store, don’t beg for anything and do not grab things off the shelf. Very easy rules to follow. Sometimes they get a reward if they obey but not always. They are always good. No Problems.
I spanked. It suited both my two sons and myself.
Now, I was an abused kid, big time. I know the difference between a spanking and abuse. I do NOT abuse nor have I ever.
We reached a time when permissiveness was the popular thing, thanks to Dr Spock. Social groups and the courts over reacted and abused their own authority reacting to what they interpreted as abuse. Children have been “kidnapped” from their parents with no evidence but only a suspiction of abuse usually because an anonomous person has called in. Oh yes, I worked directly for Investigators for the District Attorney. This has and does happen.
It will until parents start taking their rights back.
We do have to protect children in harms way but we need to use good sense in doing it.
The end result of all of this is that children, teachers and other school authority is afraid to discipline at all.
We all see the results of that.
M
Matthewsmumau
Guest
I never, ever smack, spank, hit or whatever you like to call it, our son. I do not believe in physical punishment in any form. I think it is demeaning and degrading for the child. When my little fella was approx. 18 months old i gave him a very light tap on his fingers and for the next week he ran around the house smacking himself, needless to say i have never laid a finger on him again. I could not imagine the hurt on his little face if he thought i was to put him over my knee and smack him. How can i hurt the thing in this world i love the most? I cant. I find taking his favourite toy (ps2) off him more effective and he is not left with a sore **** for goodness knows how long. He knows when his toys are taken off him he has done wrong. Some people may think im weak but im not i just love my child and dont ever want to hurt him. My hubby is worse his idea of discipline is having only 2 pieces of chocolate instead of 4 lol. God Bless. Sue.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
At 16 months, re-direction is a better course. Stated rules are necessary, but explanations are pretty much useless.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
Well, thanks. I’m more in the non-spanking camp than not, but there have been times when the level of conflict was such that a spanking was almost a relief to everyone involved. But it is like war. There may be unavoidable ones, but never good ones… and boy, is using that option a great temptation when one has a standing army at one’s disposal.BLB_Oregon
Thank you for a very even handed, logical, thoughtful post on this issue. Although spanking is not an option we are willing to use, I think your post made perfect sense
M
misericordie
Guest
I don’t want to sound like a left-wing nut, because I am VERY far from left wing. BUT, if I am correct, NOW spanking, etc, is against the law(??considered assault??).
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