To spank or not to spank, that is the question

[SteveG]

kamz:

Read Dr.Dobson’s Dare to discipline this is a timeless classic and has been updated, Dr.Dobson not only writes a book on discipline he tells exactly how he and his wife used discipline with their children. He is a great guy

Dr. Dobson most definetety does NOT bring anything resembling a Catholic understanding of the human person to his parenting advice. He is of the protestant mindset that children are evil and in need to basically be broken. Please, if you want to parent in a Catholic way, stay FAR away from his books.

 

[SteveG]

Black Jaque:

Consider this:

Parents have been using spanking as a discipline tool for generations. Now suddenly it’s gonna screw up your kids? Hogwash!

And the wonderful state of the world is evidence of just how well these methods have worked.:banghead:

How about instead we try modeling our parenting on the Catholic understanding of the human person. How about we try to model our parenting on that which the gentle, all-loving, all-patient, all-merciful Father does for us?

 

[SteveG]

BruceH:

But spanking is an option and very effective for very young childen.It should only be used for the first few years until the child reaches understanding.

I will reiterate. There are many who don’t use spanking, yet discipline their children, and have wonderfully behave kids. Families I know with 6 and 8 kids, which are a mix of easy going and strong willed, have never spanked their kids and have the same results. I ask again, If you can achieve the same result without physical punishment, why would you use it?

It need NOT be an option unless you put it in your ‘arsenal’

 

[kamz]

I did not know that Dr.Dobson was ok with birth control and masturbation and am very upset to find that out, so I will no longer be using any of his books and thank you all for bring this to my attention.

We have used spanking at times with our children but find that time outs work well also and with older kids taking away a specail toy or other favorite thing for a day, couple days, week, whatever need be depending upon what they have done, that works well also, of course, you take away the favorite thing and they go crazy with crying etc. and tell me they will never do it again but that is when I take that time to explain why the behavior is not ok and why this will be followed through with and then you must follow through even though sometimes you want to give in and give it back, if you say no this or that for 3 days you must follow through or your kids will know you don’t and will use that.
For my older kids spanking just doesn’t really work, for our youngest who is almost 15 months, I will say no very clearly and if that doesn’t work will remove him from the situation that is dangerous such as hot stove etc. and if he still goes then clearly say no, spank his hand lightly and take him out of the situation, this has worked well for our three older ones.
Iguana27, my almost 15 mo. old son also throws fits during diaper changes, he pushes my hands away, says no, crys, fights, I try to distract him, hand him toys, whatever and he screams harder, throws them back at me and trys to get away and yes, during those tantrums I give him a very light tap on his thigh and clearly say no and he chills out right away and lays still while I change him and then comes to hug me after so you are not alone on that one

 

[goingthere]

Our experience has been that of some previous posts. They are all unique and require different ways of discipline. Have you all witnessed parents trying to reason with their three year old? What a hoot. It seems to me that the youngster in that position has a twinkle in his eye as he calls their bluff? If the youngster will not stay away from the stove maybe a swat and a little less screaming will do the trick. The important thing is love. I can not say that enough. If you spank, know that it is only because of the hurt that you want to protect them from. I have four kids two in college and I think I could count on one hand how many times I spanked any of them. What a blessing kids are. Just love them.

 

[goingthere]

Whoa just read an attack against Dr. Dobson.? He may be Protestant, but in my opinion he is a Godly man and a wealth of information on raising healthy families.

 

[iguana27]

goingthere:

Whoa just read an attack against Dr. Dobson.? He may be Protestant, but in my opinion he is a Godly man and a wealth of information on raising healthy families.

I agree with you. It is not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There are many non-Catholics out there with good ideas. There are also some Catholics who have bad ideas.

If something that Dr Dobson says disagrees with church teaching, then disregard it. It would be a shame to miss out on his wisdom because he does not have the same religious views.

 

[SteveG]

iguana27:

If something that Dr Dobson says disagrees with church teaching, then disregard it. It would be a shame to miss out on his wisdom because he does not have the same religious views.

But this is not ‘something’ he disagrees with the church on. In this case it is the fundamental view of the person and the will. Dobson is in the camp of viewing people as ‘Totally Depraved’ (as Luther put it ‘piles of dung’). This is simply incompatible with the Catholic view of the person and the will. If his fundamentals are totally wrong, it makes the rest suspect.

 

[mvinca]

BruceH:

Prov 23: 13-14 Withhold not chastisement from a boy. iIf you beat him with a rod , he will not die. Beat him with the rod and you will save him from the nether world.

So, someone wrote a book, but I don’t know who or what since I heard it third person from my pastor. If anyone knows, feel free to post an addition.

Anyway, in this book, the author took the quote literally (among other biblical verses) and actually specified the diameter of the rod with which to strike your child. The rod was a small wooden smooth stick.

The advantages were this:

1. 
   *]With a hand, you can hurt your child. With the specified dimensions of the stick, the stick will break before you can phyiscally do any harm to your child.
   *]The stick becomes the spanking stick, and probably only needs to get used once. All other times you only need to reach for it. Its purpose is known. This saves your hand for only loving touches. The purpose of your hand is no longer confused.
   
   This only applies until the age of reason. At that time, mental punishments are more effective. (A child before the age of reason is argued to not be able to fully comprehend the mental punishments) Eg. Grounding.

 

[kamz]

Iguana,
I still like Dr.Dobson but he is not Catholic, I thought that his views were similar with mine as a Catholic parent but Ham1 did point out that Dr.Dobson is for birth control and masturbation and I looked online at some sites and sure enough Dr.Dobson is ok with birth control which that did not surprise me as he is a protestant but saying that we should not make a big deal if we suspect our children or teen maybe masturbating, wow, I did not know he was not against that one and that bothers me a great deal. He has some good points but that is one point that I find very disturbing. But that doesn’t mean he is wrong in his approach to spanking, I’ve always felt he hit that right on but I felt that way about spanking before I ever read his books, except I don’t use a switch ever and I of course never spank if I feel angry or out of control. Your right that some of Dr.Dobsons points are very good but some are not also, I wish he would take a different stance on those issues, I will pray for him as thats all I can do.

 

[goingthere]

I find it somewhat comical that Dr. Dobson would be getting a bad review in these forums. He, I would think, would be among friends. Can you all name one person in the American media that has spoken up for the family? For me before there even was a Catholic radio in my area; it was Dr. Dobson and Focus on The Family. From him you would here all that we hold true about what is good about the family and not to give up and that God is loving and merciful. Man was he a breath of fresh air. One time I remember listening on the radio when he was telling a story about talking to his son after he, Dr. Dobson had had a heart attack. He emphasized that the most important thing for him was for his son to be there (Heaven). As a parent what is more important or a greater responsibility than teaching what is the most important of all and that is be there!

 

[SteveG]

goingthere:

I find it somewhat comical that Dr. Dobson would be getting a bad review in these forums. He, I would think, would be among friends. Can you all name one person in the American media that has spoken up for the family? For me before there even was a Catholic radio in my area; it was Dr. Dobson and Focus on The Family.

I think this is true and we should laud him for all the work he does in this area. I don’t think those of us criticizing him are knocking those good things he’s done. And were he agrees with us on moral issues and the family, I say hooray! Yet, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand regarding parenting. Just because he deserves cuodos in the area of supporting the institution of the family (and without question he most certainly does), that does not shield him from criticism in the other.

If there is an Atheist who is pro-life, we say hooray and celebrate the good we have in common. Yet we can fairly criticize their take on spirituality, and say the foundation of how they approach THAT sphere of life is off. For my part, this is how I see Dobson. He has indeed fought for and supported the family, and I love him for that. AND his approach to parenting is based on a faulty understanding of the person (due to his being protestant), and I absolutely disagree with him in that area.

Does that seem so unreasonable?

 

[kamz]

SteveG,
Great post, you took the words right out of my mouth, thank you.

 

[iguana27]

Ham1:

Dr. Dobson’s entire view of the human person is utterly flawed…he does not view the human person as beautiful creation of God but as a corrupt fallen creature.

The CCC has something to say about man’s fallen nature.

This is from Chapter 1, Paragraph 7, entitled, The Fall.

415 “Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him” (GS 13 § 1).

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

The Catholic Church, and certainly our own experience shows us that we are inclined to sin. Certainly this view is not diametrically opposed to Dobson’s.
Our children are NOT little angels who do no wrong. They are not even inclined to make good choices. They are inclined to sin and it is our obligation as parents to discipline them to make choices that are pleasing to God.

While baptism wipes away the punishment due to this sin, it does not repair the damaged nature of our souls.

Again, the CCC

[1263](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1263.htm’) By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. [1264](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1264.htm’) Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68

As for the part removed in the ellipses above . [Dobson] believes in treating children with no dignity

• I disagree. I think that if you read his works you will see that is not true!

 

[jc413]

My goodness, I haven’t been here in a few days and I see this discussion has been revived.

Funny, I agree with both arguments regarding Dobson. I definitely think his Protestant beliefs affect his child-rearing methods. I don’t agree with some of what he says. But as far as my husband and I are concerned, we wouldn’t necessarily say he is disqualified from doling out parenting advice. I’m not the only one who thinks so. I heard an episode of “Catholic Answers” when Dobson was a guest, sharing his newest book “Bringing up Boys.” It was an excellent show! Dobson truly is a Godly man. Also, I was just reading Kimberly Hahn’s “Life-giving Love” this weekend, and in a paragraph on discipline, she had a foot-note. Out of curiosity, I looked it up, and wouldn’t you know, she had the contact information for “Focus on the Family.” (Dobson’s apostolate). So let’s not be too quick to condemn Dobson.

Also, my husband and I have listened to Steve Wood’s tapes. Personally, I don’t like some of his methods. That’s just me. But he is certainly a staunch Catholic (he is a convert) and certainly pro-spanking. So IMO, there are clearly different schools of thoughts regarding child-rearing, but we don’t necessarily have to boil it down to Catholic=non-spanking and Protestant=spanking.

 

[jc413]

kirabira:

…is it possible that your house needs more child proofing or there are other ways to address what is going on? …I think its essential to exaime the motives of the child to even begin to consider whether they are doing something ‘wrong’…

Yes, it is certainly possible that our house needs more child-proofing, so we have been instituting more of Popcak’s methods and distracting, child-proofing more, etc. Going to the car is a good example – instead of spanking for running towards the street, I am much more apt to hold my son’s hand and not tempt him to disobey. He is young, he is curious. I understand that. Sometimes if I ask him to give me something he is holding, he says no and runs away. I know some people who would tell me to spank him for that. But we both know this is a game, so I usually put my hand on my son’s shoulder and say seriously, “no, I don’t want to play that game. Please give mama x, y, or z.” Then he does!!

That said, there still are occasions that I think warrant a swat. I don’t expect him to remember what he can and cannot touch. But I do expect some basic behavior I know he is capable of. For example, my son tried to kick at my belly when he was getting a diaper change he was not happy with, and I’m 8 months pregnant! I tried to distract, move to the side, but he was angry. So I did give him a swat and told him, “No, you will hurt mama and the baby. Don’t kick.” And that was that.

 

[Black_Jaque]

And the wonderful state of the world is evidence of just how well these methods have worked.:banghead:

Actually, things have gotten pretty bad since parents have been terrified out of spanking their kids. You’re right.

The fact is, proper spanking does no harm. So why deny parents another tool in their tool box?

It’s true it’s possible to discipline without spanking. But it’s also possible to build a house without nails. So what? If you got the tool, use it.

I suspect this no-spanking idea has arisen out of someone’s dream of eliminating all war. A logic that goes like this “If we teach our children that all violence is bad, then when they take positions of national leadership, war would be unthinkable.”

Wow, what a novel solution! And it’s so simple too. We don’t even need God to solve the worlds problems - we just need to think happy thoughts and the world will be better.

 

[Ham1]

Actually, it comes from the idea that, as Catholics, we are called to develop virtues in our children. Cultivation of virtue is not done by causing pain in a child. It is done by teaching them that there is right and wrong and that they are called to do the right thing. It also calls parents to be vigilant, involved, and understanding of the uniqueness of each child’s personality and inherent goodness.

St. John Bosco used no-spanking with outstanding results. This is not some new touchy-feely style of parenting. It is a form of parenting grown out of Catholic tradition and not the puritanical protestant tradition of this country.

 

[Black_Jaque]

It (cultivation of virtue) is done by teaching them that there is right and wrong and that they are called to do the right thing

Right, and spanking teaches them that there are consequences to vice. Firmly opposing evil is a virtue.

Cultivation of virtue is not done by causing pain in a child.

What’s wrong with pain? Pain in and of itself is not evil. I wonder what you think the Catholic Church has to say about fasting. I get the impression that would be a bad thing too.

 

[Ham1]

Black Jaque:

Right, and spanking teaches them that there are consequences to vice. Firmly opposing evil is a virtue.

What’s wrong with pain? Pain in and of itself is not evil. I wonder what you think the Catholic Church has to say about fasting. I get the impression that would be a bad thing too.

Spanking teaches that there are artificial consequences to actions. Expecially with small children, their brains can have adifficult time creating a real connection between the two. If a child is told not to go outside and he goes outside anyway. You can spank him. That teaches him that if he disobeys you, he gets spanked which causes pain. He then avoids disobeying you in order to avoid pain. He does not seek to obey you because it is the right thing to do. He avoids disobedience. The point is that it creates an artificial consequence in order to achieve the desired result.

I think fasting is great…when it is self-mortification. Not when it is inflicted upon another.