To spank or not to spank, that is the question

[BruceH]

What does God say about spanking?

Prov. 22: 6 "Train a boy in the way he should go. Even when he is old, he will not swerve from it.

Prov 23: 13-14 Withhold not chastisement from a boy. iIf you beat him with a rod , he will not die. Beat him with the rod and you will save him from the nether world.

Ps 23: Thy rod and staff they comfort me.

Prov. 29: 15 The rod of correction gives wisdom. But a boy left to his whims disgraces his mother.

Eph 6: 4 Correct your son and he will bring you comfort and delight to your soul.

Eph 5: Fathers, do not anger your children. Bring them up with the training and instruction befitting the Lord.

So, it seems to me that training and instruction are required but occasionly you must spank to get their attention. “Apply the board of education to the seat of learning” Dr. Vernon McGee

 

[SHEMP]

Maddalena:

lol My parents spanked me and my brother when we were little. Because of it, my parents were always getting compliments on how well-behaved we were. You just have to teach them at a young that if they do something wrong, they’ll get spanked (A TIME OUT DOES NOT WORK). If I was doing something wrong, and my parents said, “If you don’t stop, you’ll get a spanking.” so I stopped. lol Spanking may seem harsh but if you baby your kids and let them do whatever they want, they’ll walk all over you and won’t grow up to be good adults, or good Catholics, for that matter. That’s my opinion, anyway.

We never got spanked and we didn’t get time outs. I know I have a long way to go to be a “good Catholic” but I am in good company. Spanking may not be wrong but it is so unnecessary.

 

[Maddalena]

I’m not so sure it’s unnecessary. I’ve seen tons of kids at Mass that weren’t taught to behave, and they disrupt Mass. The parents that spank their kids at our church have the best behaved kids.

 

[SteveG]

jamieshub:

How does one “discipline” or explain the why of something to a strong willed 16 month old boy. It seems to me that his lack of understanding gets in the way of this. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. I welcome your personal experiences.

While reading the book “Parenting with Grace” by Gregory Popcak he really drives home the difference between discipline and punishment and I agreed with all of it, but I have trouble understanding how to discipline my son short of a quick swat (which doesn’t always work). Any thoughts?
Jamieshub

I love and highly recommend everything in the Parenting with Grace book. Stick with the concepts and you will NOT be disappointed. The answer at that age is that you have to constantly make judgements about what you feel he is capable of. Sometimes (most times at this age), you simply can’t explain to him in a way he can understand. In these cases, you simply remove him from the situation or remove the situation (object) from him. I have two very strong willed boys as well. Often times, simply removing them from an escalating situation and distracting them to something else (i.e. high-tailing it to another room, and making the activities just outside the window sound like a fourth of July fireworks display) is all that’s need.

It is not a failure with a 16 month old if you don’t ‘Get your point across’. Neither is it a battle of wills. Children have limited emotional control and resources. It’s your job to help figure out when those resources are being overwhelmed by the situation and circumstances. You can’t always get this right, but you’ll be surprised how often you do.

 

[SteveG]

BryanW:

Your statement implies that you think that physical punishment is more harsh. On the contrary mental and spiritual punishment can be much more so.

Physical punishment is sometimes needed because Humans are composites of the Spiritual and the Physical.

Really my boys are over a spanking in minutes while other types of punishments can leave them sulking or feeling bad about themselves all day.

Of course I am not out to spiritually or emotionally scar my kids. I try not to look to much even at punishing them (though I do). I am trying to discipline them. Trying to teach them the consequences of their actions. Make the consequences (punishments) have a logical link to the action. I.e. if my kid leaves his bike in the driveway and I tell him several times to put it away, I could spank him for disobedience if he doesn’t comply. Or, I could revoke use of the bike for a period. The lesson? You don’t take care of your bike, you can’t use it? I think this kind of discipline is neither harsh, nor cruel and makes more sense than spanking.

 

[SteveG]

Maddalena:

Spanking may seem harsh but if you baby your kids and let them do whatever they want, they’ll walk all over you and won’t grow up to be good adults, or good Catholics, for that matter. That’s my opinion, anyway.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting you let your kids walk all over you or do whatever they want. But why does stopping their behavior have to be via physical force. I have always been able to achieve the same effect via other means. By the way, I think timeouts are nonsense too. They seem like the least effective discipline tool available

 

[ralphinal]

BryanW:

Not true. Statistics say that those in prison didn’t have parents enough that cared. Not whether or not they spanked. Those Parents may have beaten but there is a difference.

BTW I’m a Prison Guard.

That is the point I was trying ot make. If you remove the care from punishment, it is useless. Imagine this: a child gets a spanking for eating a cookie before dinner wihout permission. The same child gets a spanking for knocking his brother upside the head. Now, the cookie may not have been worth it, but his brother was! Next time, the child may not get the cookie, but he still might hit his brother. Proper discipline requires love. Simple spanking will not work. Teach the child. As a father of a three year old, I know that he understands a lot more than you would think. He knew what “no” meant way before he could talk. He has been spanked by his mother, though I have never had to. If he is bad, after the first warning, I ask him what does it mean if daddy says no. He looks at me, says no is no, and goes back to being good. DO not ask me why, but he has never pushed the issue.

 

[SteveG]

Let’s take a closer look at these…

BruceH:

What does God say about spanking?
Prov. 22: 6 "Train a boy in the way he should go. Even when he is old, he will not swerve from it.

Nothing about spanking here. Discipline yes. We all agree discipline is necessary, we are talking about how to achieve it.

BruceH:

Prov 23: 13-14 Withhold not chastisement from a boy. iIf you beat him with a rod , he will not die. Beat him with the rod and you will save him from the nether world.

OK, that one is pretty unequivocal

BruceH:

Ps 23: Thy rod and staff they comfort me.

The rod/staff in OT times can also be seen to represent the rod/staff of the shepard. Such a rod isn’t used to beat the sheep, but rather to gently nudge and guide them in the right direction. Anywy, it doesn’t say, strike with the rod and staff.

BruceH:

Prov. 29: 15 The rod of correction gives wisdom. But a boy left to his whims disgraces his mother.

Ditto.

BruceH:

Eph 6: 4 Correct your son and he will bring you comfort and delight to your soul.

nothing about spanking. Of course children must be disciplined and corrected. But how?

BruceH:

Eph 5: Fathers, do not anger your children. Bring them up with the training and instruction befitting the Lord.

Nothing about spanking

With the exception of one of the above, the case is far from closed that the bible indicates one should spank.

 

[JohnDeP]

A 16 month old can understand more than he can speak, so go ahead and explain simply what you are trying to teach him. I am a father of four (boy: 10, girl: 10, girl: 7, boy: 3).

The most important thing about any discipline is: consistency! If I say something and it’s not getting done, I count out loud 1-2-3! If I get to three, the son or daughter knows that a spanking is coming, that there is no appeal, and I will chase them around the house and down the street if I have to. Needless to say, I don’t make it to “3” much!

I disagree with the “don’t spank in anger” theory; nothing would ever get done. Anger is neutral and is God-given; it helps get you over your sentimentality so that you can do what is right. Obviously, that theory was designed to prevent abuse, and it’s right in that respect - you should know ahead of time what limits there are to ANY discipline (I can’t think of anything that merits more than one spank anyway).

Don’t forget that the opposite of discipline is at least as important (if not more so). I’m not talking about “do this many chores and get this reward”. I’m talking about random, though consistent, reinforcements to good behaviour; such as: “I noticed you all helped Mommy set the table tonight; we’ll go out for ice cream after dinner.” and other such things.

-JohnDeP.

 

[jc413]

Hi there, this is Jamie (wife to Jamieshub) here! I just wanted to thank all of you who have responded. Really, this helps more than you know! I have been reading a lot of Christian , not Catholic material(there is so much more on parenting out there in the Protestant world!) and I have not necessarily felt right about much of what I have been reading, and my husband hasn’t either. We are still leaning towards spanking when my son is defiant or disobedient (okay, at this age, we are not “spanking” per se, but giving him a swat if he disobeys). But I have been implementing many of Popcak’s other techniques with great results as well.

Up until this point everything we have read is purely theoretical, but now that we are in the thick of things we are really seeking some good solid advice we can immediately put into practice! So thank you again for all your replies.

 

[Dadof9]

In what I have learned in raising our 8 children, and you learn forever I have found, is if spanking is done with love not because you want to vent your frustrations, then it is a good thing. I haven’t taken the time to read all the posts, so if I repeat something someone has said, forgive me. Our culture is a funny thing, abortion is legal (the ultimate child abuse) but if you are caught spanking your child for good reason, people have a cow! Someone mentioned that they get compliments on how well behaved their children are and they don’t spank at all. Well, it might work if you only have 1 or 2 kids, but we have a slew. You don’t have time to sit and hold their hands and explain everything out. They just need to know they need to obey. Little ones don’t care about what you want anyway, if it hurts their fannies, they will listen up. Do we take the time to explain everything out, sure we do, at family meetings. They all better be listening well. Now our older ones, who can reason, yes they don’t get the spankings that our 2 year old receives. BUT, If they are disrespectful ever and I mean ever to my wife(their mother, the one who carried them for 10 months really, but who is counting) they will get a sock in the mouth( and I don’t mean a white one you wear) That might shock some of you young parents out there, but hey it is up to me to make respectful young men out of my boys. When they get out in the world, it has it’s own lessons to teach and the world doesn’t love them like I do. I do make sure we talk. I think that is important the older they get. Back to spanking. I think the more children you have, especially close together, it is impossible to baby each child. They have to learn sometime that the world doesn’t revolve around them. I believe that is why it is good to have large families, it keeps the parents from ruining their kids. If getting pregnant is more difficult for some of you and your kids are spaced far apart, prey God teach you how to act like you have 10 kids and discipline accordingly. The Bible is very clear on this topic as well. Hope this helped.

 

[Dadof9]

In what I have learned in raising our 8 children, and you learn forever I have found, is if spanking is done with love not because you want to vent your frustrations, then it is a good thing. I haven’t taken the time to read all the posts, so if I repeat something someone has said, forgive me. Our culture is a funny thing, abortion is legal (the ultimate child abuse) but if you are caught spanking your child for good reason, people have a cow! Someone mentioned that they get compliments on how well behaved their children are and they don’t spank at all. Well, it might work if you only have 1 or 2 kids, but we have a slew. You don’t have time to sit and hold their hands and explain everything out. They just need to know they need to obey. Little ones don’t care about what you want anyway, if it hurts their fannies, they will listen up. Do we take the time to explain everything out, sure we do, at family meetings. They all better be listening well. Now our older ones, who can reason, yes they don’t get the spankings that our 2 year old receives. BUT, If they are disrespectful ever and I mean ever to my wife(their mother, the one who carried them for 10 months really, but who is counting) they will get a sock in the mouth( and I don’t mean a white one you wear) That might shock some of you young parents out there, but hey it is up to me to make respectful young men out of my boys. When they get out in the world, it has it’s own lessons to teach and the world doesn’t love them like I do. I do make sure we talk. I think that is important the older they get. Back to spanking. I think the more children you have, especially close together, it is impossible to baby each child. They have to learn sometime that the world doesn’t revolve around them. I believe that is why it is good to have large families, it keeps the parents from ruining their kids. If getting pregnant is more difficult for some of you and your kids are spaced far apart, prey God teach you how to act like you have 10 kids and discipline accordingly. The Bible is very clear on this topic as well. Hope this helped.

 

[SHEMP]

There are some scary comments in this thread. I’m glad I had my parents of eight children. They must have been extraordinary parents to raise all of us without corporal punishment. I never wanted to let my parents down because I so easily saw their unconditional love for us. They were strict. We knew what was expected of us. We learned that violence had no place. There were no bars of soap, there were no socks in the mouth, there were no bruised fannies. Occasionally my dad threatened to get the strap (in a weaker moment). He never did. It scared the hell out of us when he said this since it was not the norm. We never swore in front of our parents. I was not afraid of their violence. I was afraid of not living up to their high standard.

Now I am trying to be that role model to my kids. Hopefully I can find that courageous prudence that my parents showed me and my siblings.

 

[Dadof9]

Ouch! Shemp don’t be so critical. We are all doing what we feel is best for our kids. I apologize if it sounds like we beat our kids constantly, quite the contrary, but they understand quite clearly where the line is. If you remember I said it was important to always talk to your older kids. My boys, as so did I, have a healthy fear of their Dad. I am glad you hold your parents with such high regard and that they were able to effectively raise 8 children without raising a hand to discipline. Our children are 11 down to 1, pretty close together, our big tool is consistency(someone mentioned this earlier) When you are consistent, you don’t have to spank as much. When I talk about spanking, I am talking in regards to around 5 years old on down. We have spanked older than that, but very rarely. We start discipling around 10mos. I know that sounds young, but it works. Just some good taps on the diaper for a tantrum(this usually occurs around bedtime). If you hold out, the first time lasts around 10-15 minutes and your done. The next night, alls it usually takes is a firm SHHH! When we had only one child some friends of ours who had grown children taught us this. At first we were shocked, but sometimes you need to look at the fruit on the tree and go on faith and prayer. I might mention their children are great outgoing, fun kids/adults. I am not saying I have all the answers, far from it. I learn something new everyday. I will say this though, we do get compliments all the time on how our young children sit through a 1 hour Latin Mass so well and we can actually go to the store with all 8 and get the shopping done without it being a horrible experience. All of that said, I can’t emphasize enough to love on your kids. Our kids know that we love them more than anything in the world. We tell them and show them. We think it is important to show affection. When our little ones get spanked, they are encouraged to come back and tell us they are sorry and give us a hug. So again I apologize if I sounded like some brute. I am really a great guy. I can assure you, you would like me.

 

[kellie]

I have a 6 year old son.

He and I have a fantastic relationship.

We know each other so well.

I slapped his hand a lot when he was crawling.

Just a light tap, but enough for him to know that whatever he was doing was wrong.

Now I speak very sternly to him if he has done something wrong.

I pull him over to one side, and tell him what he has done is wrong, to please not do it again, and I love him.

Only a handful of times he has been cheeky back to me and I have said “OK I will have to slap your legs.”

He has said “No mummy I wont do it again”

But I have made him turn around and I have spanked him.

He cried, so I held him close, told him I loved him, but he knows now what the punishment is if he disobeys me.

I dont think spanking all the time is right.
Lets face it, why would you want to hit your kids all the time.
Hugs are much better.

Love Kellie

 

[Viki59]

jc413:

We are still leaning towards spanking when my son is defiant or disobedient (okay, at this age, we are not “spanking” per se, but giving him a swat if he disobeys). /QUOTE]

I find that spanking tends to snowball – in some children it may provoke defiance, and then you have to use it more. . . However, either spanking or not spanking will probably work as long as the child knows that his parents love him enough to take time and energy to discipline him and pay attention to what he does. It’s kids who are ignored or treated inconsistently who misbehave.
I agree with Raphaela – my kids are adopted and my son witnessed too much violence before two. We couldn’t spank him. Yet my oldest bio children were spanked occasionally and are great people.

 

[KCT]

As soon as I saw the title of the thread, I knew it would be an interesting one. People on both sides of the issue can be very passionate about their opinions.

Frankly, I don’t think the answer is black and white. Kids -even siblings- can be so different. What works with one may not work with another. Temperaments are an important part of parenting as well.

Read up on both sides, and form some opinions, but never say never! —KCT

 

[Cat]

I’ve seen his name recommended on other threads in this Catholic Answers Forum, so I feel comfortable recommending him.

Read Dare To Discipline, by Dr. James Dobson. (The psychologist who founded Focus on the Family.)

There is an old version (published sometime in the 70s) and an updated version (published in the late 90s). Get the updated version, but it says the same thing as the old version. It just refers to different presidents!

We raised our two daughters by Dobson, and the results are good.

 

[jess7396]

I believe parents can raise wonderful children wether they spank or not, which is a big reason of why I don’t/won’t spank . I CAN say “never” as surely as I can say I will never have an abortion, I will never have an affair, etc. If it is simply not in your value system to hit your child- you won’t do it. (not saying all those things are equal, just that they are all outside my value system)

I was (in my earlier life) a teacher, I was able to keep track of 25+ children without hitting them. My students (even the tough ones) were well behaved as are my children. If you think teachers, babysitters, etc. should be able to “discipline” your child w/o hitting, then- you know you CAN do it too. (I realize some people think teachers should hit)

Yes, I only have 3 children, but- I know parents of as many as 8 children who have raised wonderful families w/o hitting. The aforementioned Dr. Sears is a good example.

Discipline (teach) your child/children, absolutely, but to think that hitting HAS to be a part of it seems quite silly to me. I would never argue that people who spank can’t raise good children b/c I know they can, it would be nice if the other side could see that parents who choose not to spank can also raise good children.

As for the OP, 16 months? Please re-think hitting your baby . Even my brother (no kids but very pro-spanking) was appalled at seeing a family member hit (spank) their 18 month old. Esp. at this VERY young age- there are so many more kind/gentle ways to interact with your child. IMO, a 16 month old should be re-directed repeatedly, and other gentle methods outlined well by “Parenting With Grace”.

Parenting is not always easy, but IMO it is worth the time to be a kind, gentle, consistent parent. Can you picture Jesus or the Blessed Virgin hitting your child? (that’s what I tell myself when trying to decide what to do with my kids/students- I know it’s more a protestant saying, but- WWJD?)

FTR- I am a brand new poster who has been lurking for a bit, and I think all the parents here are great, even if I disagree on this issue

Patty

 

[jc413]

jess7396:

As for the OP, 16 months? Please re-think hitting your baby . Even my brother (no kids but very pro-spanking) was appalled at seeing a family member hit (spank) their 18 month old. Esp. at this VERY young age- there are so many more kind/gentle ways to interact with your child.

Patty, your terminology shows how strongly you feel about spanking. I would never ever “hit” a “baby.” But I will spank a toddler. You are right, this is a very young age. But if my son is old enough to understand “please hand mama the dustpan” (without any gestures) or “please put your sippy cup on the table, not the floor” then he is old enough to understand, “Do not touch.”

Popcak makes an excellent point that you should not “tempt” your children to disobey, by putting things out they can reach, etc. But I am not perfect, and there are times when my son is out of arm’s reach and he needs to know that my “no means no.”

I’m sorry if you are saddened by the thought of our spanking our 16 month old son.The problem with these internet forums is that you DON’T know who we are and thus form opinions based on what is written. Believe me, we are not hauling out the wooden spoon on our small child. But I am not convinced that a swat on a well-diapered bottom when my son disobeys is injuring him in the least, especially when he is off and running and cheerful (and obedient) the very next second. It merely gets his attention, and reinforces that I mean business.

I am in the middle of Popcak’s book, and I am still learning here. This is why my husband brought up the topic in the first place. Although I believe there are many, many valuable tools in that book, I simply don’t agree with everything that is said, but I have heard from too many Protestants and want to know how orthodox Catholics parent as well. Popcak asserts that the method he advocates, the “gentle method,” is the Catholic way to parent. We wanted to know how others felt on this topic.

Also, please note that there is a grave difference between “hitting” and “spanking.” Hitting is a vague term that covers everything from men beating their wives to parents beating their children. I have heard people erroneously refer to instances of real abuse as “spanking” when it is really “hitting.” A father who uses a belt on his son is NOT “spanking” him. He is hitting him. A boyfriend who slaps his girlfriend is “hitting” her. A mom swatting a well-diapered bottom is “spanking.”

Again, I’m sorry if you were saddened by our posts. We are merely trying to prayerfully discern what the best approach is, and we do not in the least consider ourselves experts on this matter!