To spank or not to spank, that is the question

[Ham1]

Cat:

I’ve seen his name recommended on other threads in this Catholic Answers Forum, so I feel comfortable recommending him.

Read Dare To Discipline, by Dr. James Dobson. (The psychologist who founded Focus on the Family.)

There is an old version (published sometime in the 70s) and an updated version (published in the late 90s). Get the updated version, but it says the same thing as the old version. It just refers to different presidents!

We raised our two daughters by Dobson, and the results are good.

Dobson has a completely distorted view of the human person. He views the body as evil and the will of the child as something evil that must be overcome. He sees no problem with masturbation and advocates contraception as a good thing.

Now it seems to me that anyone who can hold those positions has NO CLUE as to the truth of the human person. Why on earth would anyone take advice on discipline from a man who has an utterly perverted view of what a child is?

 

[space_ghost]

i am one of 8 children… mother spanked… all 8 of us are NOT in jail… all work, have families and are thankful mother spanked…

most of us do not spank, and those that don’t have spoiled rotten brats and we are too cowardly to do anything about it…

i say quit talking them to death and spank… i know you know the difference in spank and beat… there are times i lean toward beating…

good luck…

 

[retina_md]

jamieshub:

Thank you all for your great responses to my question. I have one follow up that relates to the last post, though.

How does one “discipline” or explain the why of something to a strong willed 16 month old boy. It seems to me that his lack of understanding gets in the way of this. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. I welcome your personal experiences.

While reading the book “Parenting with Grace” by Gregory Popcak he really drives home the difference between discipline and punishment and I agreed with all of it, but I have trouble understanding how to discipline my son short of a quick swat (which doesn’t always work). Any thoughts?

Thanks again and God bless!

Jamieshub

I’ve got five sons. Each has received occasional spankings from me (never my wife.) I try to restrict the spankings to those occasions when they are directly disobedient or they do some thing dangerous (running into the street, etc.) Never too hard and never with rage. Another less physical practice I have developed is a gentle (or not so) pinch of the ear. No twisting or distortion, just a squeeze. In fact when the kids need some reinforcement, a gesture tword the ear (without even touching) brings the offending action to a quick conclusion in most circumstances. Done in the right spirit, the boys are not resentful and generally within a few minutes of spanking or “the ear thing” they have put it aside.

Love your kids enough to disipline them when needed.

Blessings
REW

 

[alaskaaggies]

I haven’t read all the previous posts in their entirety, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned; but as far as great ideas for disipline and the like, we have really enjoyed Dr. Ray Guarendi’s books. He takes a very loving, common sense approach to parenting. Not to mention that he has a great sinse of humor! I’m pretty sure all his stuff is available through the Catholic Answers web site as well.

Pax,
Amy (Momma to 5 blessings)

 

[Tom_of_Assisi]

To spank!!

Spanking is very effective if you :

1)do it rarely and only for big transgressions (don’t sweat the small stuff)

1. don’t do it when you’re angry
2. make sure the child (or your wife–whatever the case may be) clearly understands why they are being spanked :tsktsk:

Good luck and God bless.

p.s. (just kidding about the wife thing…hee hee)

 

[SHEMP]

Tom of Assisi:

p.s. (just kidding about the wife thing…hee hee)

I’ve noticed a lot of kidding when the pro-spanking (I wanted to be PC so I didn’t say Pro-hitting) crowd write about corporal punishment.

I think that is one of the big problems with corporal punishment. It is very easy to let your guard down. Most anyone who has children has had feelings of violence come into their heads when their children were difficult. It is a feeling that I am ashamed of but I know that I am not alone. If corporal punishment is part of your routine you need to guard against crossing the line. I just choose to set the line much higher. I choose to not use violence to discipline.

My wife and I have seen abused children. My wife is a pediatrician. She has cared for kids with multiple bone fractures, brain injury, and even death. These kids often come from “good” Christian homes.

If you use corporal punishment be very careful. Because if I ever catch you physically abusing your child, I will do everything to take those children away from you!!

 

[SteveG]

alaskaaggies:

I haven’t read all the previous posts in their entirety, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned; but as far as great ideas for disipline and the like, we have really enjoyed Dr. Ray Guarendi’s books. He takes a very loving, common sense approach to parenting. Not to mention that he has a great sinse of humor! I’m pretty sure all his stuff is available through the Catholic Answers web site as well.

Pax,
Amy (Momma to 5 blessings)

I truly despise Dr. Guarendi’s philosophy on parenting. While he does say a few common sense things in his books, overall the approach he takes on parenting is tyrranical.

Sorry to be so strong here, but having done attachment parenting (ala Dr. Popcak…‘Parenting With Grace’) from the beginning, at one point I got Dr. Guarendi’s book (as a gift for contributing to Catholic Answers no less). I read it and it seemed reasonable. Since we were in a particularly challenging phase with our oldest (he was around 2&1/2), and being relatively open minded in the sense that we don’t think we know it all, my wife and I tried using some of the advice he gave.

Almost over night, my oldest child went from an overall peaceful, attached, affectionate, well behaved boy (not perfect mind you), to a nervous wreck who began detaching from us and whose behavior went down the tubes. We stuck with things for a several weeks and things got worse and worse.

He/We were never more miserable, more detached, more distrusting than that period. We then hit the reset button and went back to the loving discipline approach Dr. Popcak espouses. Within weeks, behavior, attitude, peace, and well being were restored for all. I still regret that I ever listen to Dr. Guarendi’s advice for even a second.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Attachment Parenting IS true Catholic parenting.

 

[PKK]

I have raised 4 children (or am still in the process, my youngest is 15). I have heard and seen many different opinions, and here is mine. I have seen parents that spank their children and parents who don’t. Both with postitive results in having good outstanding children. I have also see the opposite in both the spank and don’t spank. I believe that what you do has a lot to do with your (as said before) consistency, although I have and belive that most slip on this from time to time. However, there is again the need for discernment. If you have one or two children (with no strong willed child), and have the time to devote to consistent consequences, without spankings then great. However, if you have more than 2 or 3 children, then sometimes you don’t have the time to devote to that, and it is not your main course of action (which I think for most of us it isn’t) then done for the right purposes it is okay. The biggest thing I hear on this thread, on the decisions to spank or not to spank, have more to do with how we view either our upbringing our what we see in others. We go from the extremes. We have all seen the very unruly kid, who’s parent’s never spanked (but then they really didn’t believe in any form of control) to those who believed in spanking to the extreme of abuse (I happen to come the abuse end) which is also more an abuse issue than discipline. My form of disciple (I didn’t know a good form of discipline either and came across Dr. Dobson’s “Dare to Disciple”, which I am not sure of his views as stated above, but they were very instumental in helping me to disciple my children in a more appropriate way). Two of my children didn’t need me to lay a finger on them, and one needed it more than the others. However, I do agree with what someone said above, and it worked very good for me. Let me start with stating that as adults how often do we just jump the minute we are told to do something, or do we tell our kids to give us a minute? Kids don’t always respond that way, it is more of just ignoring. I like the counting to 3 (which I have rarely ever reached 3 after the first couple of times either, usually only had to say 1). That generally gets their attention that I mean business, and if they don’t choose to bring themselves under control, or do what is told then the consequences would follow. I believe that most of us try other methods first. What I am gathering from above and is true for me is the 1 good swat method is usually used in circumstances that time doesn’t allow for a more timely method. Like the person above whose child wandered to close to the street. As much as we try there will come a time your child will do something unexpected, and maybe dangerous (if your child doesn’t then count yourself fortunate), and we pray that it doesn’t end in a devasting way. I have come to near misses myself, and not because I wasn’t watching my children like a hawk, but one of them at the time needed my attention, and the other got away. As for the orginal post, learn all you can, and then trust in your judgement, and God to do what is right. As long as things are done in love, and are not abusive, kids have a funny way of surving their parenting, and still come out loving their parents, and loving their creator.

 

[jc413]

SteveG:

I truly despise Dr. Guarendi’s philosophy on parenting. While he does say a few common sense things in his books, overall the approach he takes on parenting is tyrranical.

Steve, I haven’t read Dr. Guarendi’s book and I am totally unfamiliar with anything he advocates. Can you please give me a little more information on what you oppose that he advocates? I’m curious, since I was just about to get some of his material. Thanks in advance. Please feel free to PM me if you’d prefer (which might be a better idea, seeing as this is getting pretty heated, but it’s up to you.)

 

[SteveG]

PKK:

I have seen parents that spank their children and parents who don’t. Both with postitive results in having good outstanding children. I have also see the opposite in both the spank and don’t spank …

The bottom line here is that you admit, and we all know that you CAN get good results without spanking. Soooo…if you can achieve good results without, why would you use it? And the number of kids really is irrelavent. I know families with 6, 8, even 10 kids who have never spanked and their children turn out wonderfully

 

[PKK]

Soooo…if you can achieve good results without, why would you use it? And the number of kids really is irrelavent. I know families with 6, 8, even 10 kids who have never spanked and their children turn out wonderfully

And I have known families, with 2 children who spanked, who had wonderful kids. The issue is more of what form of discipline works for you personally.

I personally think that both sides are judgemental (again we are talking of the extremes), and it doesn’t need to be. “You need to spank because if you don’t you will have a brat, or if you spank you are abusing your child, and ruining their selfesteem.” The biggest thing to keep in mind that not everything works for everybody, and no 2 children or families are a like. The biggest issue is getting your child(ren) to adulthood with good ethics and selfesteem. I also believe that no matter how you discipline, as long as it is in love (not counting abuse) you will make mistakes, but hopefully your possitives will be much greater. There (as far as I have seen) are no perfect parents, we all make mistakes, it is our human nature. We can not judge how a family diciplines their child as good or bad (except in abuse) on how we raise our children. Our children are different our families are different. We could make that judgement if all children and families were identical.

 

[Shiann]

SteveG:

The bottom line here is that you admit, and we all know that you CAN get good results without spanking. Soooo…if you can achieve good results without, why would you use it?

Because, as all of the pro spanking people here have stated, it is a matter of parental personality and the child’s personality. If all other punishment is uneffective (please note again, that spanking as discussed in this thread is method of LAST resort) then spanking (not hitting, not abusing, et. al.) can be seen as proper and appropriate.

If you have children and know of children who do not ever require punishment to reach this far, this is awesome! This is how we all parent! The very last thing I want to do is spank my child. But it is a part of my took kit for parenting- along with hugs, and kisses, and grounding, and creative punishments.

I heard one time that mother elephants touch their children at least once every 5 minutes. I really thought this was amazing, and I strive to match this. So in my case, my unruly child often responded well to a basic ‘sit down for 5 minutes and cuddle’. This was always my first response to crabby and unrully children.

But when my daughter made choices to flatly disobey (lie, decieve, disrespect etc.) in other words break one or more of God’s TEN Commandments, I chose to place a heavy punishment on those- just as Jesus does for us! Her choices to not honor mother and father, or to lie has led to a spanking on the bottom.

So, say my 4 year old chose to lie to me about something- once we have determined the lie, and the reason for the lie, she gets one spanking. Then we talk about ways that she could have handled the situation (all discussion geared toward her 4 year old mind of course). Then once she has completed a full apology, we talk about how much I love her and how much Jesus loves her, and hopes she won’t do it again- and how she can use the guidence and gentle nudging of the Holy Spirit to turn away from those grave sins.

We also discuss how just as her choice to disobey Jesus and her parents causes us to be gravely sad for her, I am also going to give her a spanking for it if I catch her at it again.

How can I offer my 4 year old the idea of Grave punishment from God if I am not willing to deliver a Grave punishment on earth? How can she grow to realize the punishment for her sins have spiritual and physical consequences- if I don’t teach her that early on?

Spanking isn’t a tool that I use to kill her spirit in order to make her obey my whims. It is a tool I use to introduce her to the precious reality of our faith.

 

[gomer_tree]

Spank.

But that’s just me.

 

[Pray4Life]

Well, as the mother of a very, ummmm, *spirited * two year old, I have to say I have learned that consistency is probably the most important aspect of discipline, whatever you choose to do. Make up your mind, and do it. As far as spanking specifically, well, I am a firm believer of the “all children are different” camp, but that said, I think spanking should not be the automatic answer to every infraction and take the place of making sure your children understand the difference between right and wrong.

A 16 month old is a little young to be really heaping on the discipline, but you know how much your child can reasonably understand. Just don’t set the bar too high just yet. The best discipline for a baby (and 16 months is still a baby, IMO) is distraction/diversion. A 16 month old does not have the impulse control necessary to not touch the nifty looking (lamp, knickknack, whatever) even if he can understand the command “don’t touch.” Basically you’d have to be reciting the Don’t Touch Put That Down Leave That Alone litany all day long, or else disciplining all day long. Around 18 months, things seem to start steadily improving on that point- they quickly learn they can’t Touch That and begin to remember 10 minutes later that they Still Can’t Touch That, though they will still need reminders from time to time. So you see the cartoon thought bubble pop up over your child’s head that has a big picture of the Lamp (or whatever) in it and you divert with an acceptable toy/activity. This can quickly drive you off your nut, so you learn to truly toddler-proof your home and gradually reintroduce “forbidden” objects as your child matures and becomes capable of not only understanding but IMPLEMENTING that understanding. If that makes any sense.

My disclaimer: I am not a child development expert or whatever, this is just my opinion as the mom of a young toddler and a former day care worker. I only have anecdotal evidence, in other words, no scientific studies and pediatric manuals. Ultimately you know your child best, this is just one more thing to consider.

And as far as the subject line, my vote is for “it depends,” but with the aforementioned caveats.

 

[asor]

I’m a consistent person, especially when it comes to disciplining. I’ve learned from experience that even a 1-year-old can learn to ‘not touch’. My older daughter, at 12 months back then, learned to leave my things in their place. My spouse, of course, told me I should raise things so the baby wouldn’t touch them. This is when I took on the challenge of teaching her to respect things. It only took one incident (although 3 attempts) when she finally caught on.

Recently I also taught a 1-year-old to leave things in their place. It took 2 incidents with him but he caught on as well. Believe me, babies know when enough is enough and what you’ll tolerate.
If a baby crawls and can touch and grab, then he/she knows better. It’s up to the parent to teach them.

I agree that there’s a limit, but spanking does have its place in the upbringing of any child. Some need more than others. Some may not need any at all. If the parent is consistent, and I do mean at least 99.9% consistent, then you’ll know if spanking will work for you. Some parents believe they’re consistent but they’re not. One has to look at oneself and evaluate ones consistency in our expectations and demands of our child(ren).

 

[jess7396]

OP (Jaime) I am sorry I did not mean to offend when I said “please do not hit your baby”. I was not trying to be dramatic, or offensive. If I were being unrealistic I would called your child an infant (which she is not), but IMO 16 months is a baby still, also I didn’t say you beat her, and I did not picture you with a wooden spoon at all, I picture a rare “swat” on a diapered bottom, but that still fit’s my definition of “hit” not “beat”. But, IMO spanking is a more acceptable word for “hitting on the bottom”.

I really did not mean to offend, and truly was just asking you to re-think it, since starting this thread seems to show that you are questioning the idea.

I simply say, there are other way, that are not only (IMO) more gentle, but also- having worked with young children for some time now, and having my own, more effective in “disciplining” (teaching).

God Bless- we are all “works in progress” on this whole parenting thing, just trying to raise children who will serve the Lord!

 

[jc413]

Patty, thanks for your reply. Sorry, I guess I have heard so many people say horrible things about spanking (when what they are discussing is abuse, not spanking) that I felt the need to clarify what we were really discussing.

You’re right, we really were questioning whether spanking our son was the right thing to do. We are now somewhere right in the middle! We are not convinced that an occasional spanking in a loving, Catholic home is detrimental towards a child, but we do not think it should be the first and primary means of discipline. Thanks to everyone who gave us such great responses! We are implementing some of Popcak’s methods (though not all), and are really pleased with the results. As many have said, we are confident that the most important aspect of parenting is loving discipline.

Thanks again!

 

[Jennifer]

I believe that spanking, on the bottom only, with pants on, and using only a hand is totally appropriate! Children can get the point with a quick swat on the bottom. I am totally against bare-bottom spanking and spanking with items like belts or wooden spoons.

My biggest problem is my lack of patience and yelling. My husband says I yell too much. When is yelling too much?!? I’d rather yell at them then spank them.

 

[UxoretMater]

rfk:

BTW, I really enjoyed Deacon Dr. Bob McDonald’s tape, How to Raise Great Children, available for free from the Mary Foundation, at www.catholicity.com

Thank you, Bob, for that great resource. I have listened to Deacon McDonald on a tape from the Gift Foundation – do they still have a website? I couldn’t find it…

I also agree that warnings are given too often. My sister brought her son in for a hearing test because he wasn’t coming when she called, and didn’t follow directions. He told the doctor, “I hear her the first time, but I don’t come until the fourth or fifth.”

 

[Maddalena]

Jennifer:

I believe that spanking, on the bottom only, with pants on, and using only a hand is totally appropriate! Children can get the point with a quick swat on the bottom. I am totally against bare-bottom spanking and spanking with items like belts or wooden spoons.

Spanked with wooden spoons??? I haven’t heard of that before. o.o;; I’ve heard of being spanked with a belt (which I am completely against) but never spanked with a wooden spoon. o_o I agree with you, though, in the spanking with the pants on.