J
jimmy
Guest
The Catholic church does not support the speaking in tongues the same way the pentecostals do. We do not find it to be as important as they do.
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G
gnome
Guest
hello Mijoy2,
here’s a very informed answer from a Brother at saint-mike.org:
The point of the teaching here is that the exercise of gifts without love is pointless. To emphasize this in a literary hyperbole St. Paul says that even if one spoke in the highest language of the angels it would STILL be a clanging cymbal unless it is spoken with love. While St. Paul may be referring to the tongues of angels as the highest degree of the gift of tongues, it refers to the GIFT OF TONGUES as in one of the charism gifts that he just spoke about in Chapter 12 and not some other tongues that are private.
Even if a private prayer language exists, it is NOT one of the charism gifts. It does not qualify precisely because it is private. St. Paul make it clear that the charism gifts are of a public nature given to individuals for the building of the Church. In 1 Cor 12:7 he tells us that the manifestation of these charism gifts are for “the common good”. If that is not enough St. Paul makes the point for clearly in 1 Cor 14:7: “He who speaks in tongues edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the Church.” Tongues is not to be practiced UNLESS one can interpret and tongues interpreted rises to the level of prophecy 1 Cor 14:5: “…He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, UNLESS some one interprets, so that the Church may be edified.”
St.Paul goes on with this theme in verses 6-12 about how tongues without interpretation is useless. Then in verse 13 he again appeals for the need to interpret.
In verse 20 St. Paul, probably weary over these petty disputes over the charism gifts, tells the Corinthians (and us), “Brethren, do not be children in your thinking…”. Then beginning in verse 26 St. Paul gives the regulations for the administration of tongues that two or three should speak in tongues and then ONLY if there is someone to interpret.
An interesting note: the childishness of the Corinthian Church about charism gifts and other matters caught the attention of Pope Clement I. The Pope issued a warning to the Corinthian Church to get their act together upon pain of sin. This is interesting because this papal letter in or around AD 67 PROVES that the first century Christians understood the Pope to be the universal pastor and the Prime Minister of the Church with authority over the whole Church. If this were not so, then the Pope as Bishop of Rome could not have issued the letter he wrote to Corinth sine Corinth was in a different diocese.
Anyway, in none of all this discourse is there any mention of a private prayer language. The reference to an angelic language was mentioned by St. Paul to make a point, and besides the passage does not imply that an angelic language would be a private prayer language…
here’s a very informed answer from a Brother at saint-mike.org:
- Both Pentecostal and Catholic Charismatics speak of a “private prayer language”. The usual passage of Scripture they use to suppose the existence of this “private tongue” is 1 Corinthians 13:1 – “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”
The point of the teaching here is that the exercise of gifts without love is pointless. To emphasize this in a literary hyperbole St. Paul says that even if one spoke in the highest language of the angels it would STILL be a clanging cymbal unless it is spoken with love. While St. Paul may be referring to the tongues of angels as the highest degree of the gift of tongues, it refers to the GIFT OF TONGUES as in one of the charism gifts that he just spoke about in Chapter 12 and not some other tongues that are private.
Even if a private prayer language exists, it is NOT one of the charism gifts. It does not qualify precisely because it is private. St. Paul make it clear that the charism gifts are of a public nature given to individuals for the building of the Church. In 1 Cor 12:7 he tells us that the manifestation of these charism gifts are for “the common good”. If that is not enough St. Paul makes the point for clearly in 1 Cor 14:7: “He who speaks in tongues edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the Church.” Tongues is not to be practiced UNLESS one can interpret and tongues interpreted rises to the level of prophecy 1 Cor 14:5: “…He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, UNLESS some one interprets, so that the Church may be edified.”
St.Paul goes on with this theme in verses 6-12 about how tongues without interpretation is useless. Then in verse 13 he again appeals for the need to interpret.
In verse 20 St. Paul, probably weary over these petty disputes over the charism gifts, tells the Corinthians (and us), “Brethren, do not be children in your thinking…”. Then beginning in verse 26 St. Paul gives the regulations for the administration of tongues that two or three should speak in tongues and then ONLY if there is someone to interpret.
An interesting note: the childishness of the Corinthian Church about charism gifts and other matters caught the attention of Pope Clement I. The Pope issued a warning to the Corinthian Church to get their act together upon pain of sin. This is interesting because this papal letter in or around AD 67 PROVES that the first century Christians understood the Pope to be the universal pastor and the Prime Minister of the Church with authority over the whole Church. If this were not so, then the Pope as Bishop of Rome could not have issued the letter he wrote to Corinth sine Corinth was in a different diocese.
Anyway, in none of all this discourse is there any mention of a private prayer language. The reference to an angelic language was mentioned by St. Paul to make a point, and besides the passage does not imply that an angelic language would be a private prayer language…
G
gnome
Guest
…(cont. from previous post):
The Pentecostal experience on the Day of Pentecost certainly had nothing to do with a private prayer language. It was the Apostles preaching and the people hearing that preaching in their own various languages. It was a public manifestation for a public building of the Church. There is no Biblical support for a private prayer language that I can find.
Do to all these misconceptions and misinterpretations that all stem from a Pentecostal understanding of the “baptism of the Spirit”, any group, Protestant or Catholic, that adopts these problematic notions needs to be considered cautiously no matter how good and faithful a person they are to the Faith and the Church. These misinterpretations compounded by the predominance of subjective and emotive thinking is a recipe for problems, sometimes serious problems.
The Pentecostal experience on the Day of Pentecost certainly had nothing to do with a private prayer language. It was the Apostles preaching and the people hearing that preaching in their own various languages. It was a public manifestation for a public building of the Church. There is no Biblical support for a private prayer language that I can find.
Do to all these misconceptions and misinterpretations that all stem from a Pentecostal understanding of the “baptism of the Spirit”, any group, Protestant or Catholic, that adopts these problematic notions needs to be considered cautiously no matter how good and faithful a person they are to the Faith and the Church. These misinterpretations compounded by the predominance of subjective and emotive thinking is a recipe for problems, sometimes serious problems.
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
Have you good people ever considered where the rest of the regulars? Why do they not come out in support of your various lay movements? I myself am getting tired of the topic and I will soon join the rest of those who ignore these posts. As much as you think you got the answers, you are truly a minority and you will remain a minority until one day all this nonsense will finally be put to an end. 
God bless you all.
God bless you all.
O
otm
Guest
It would appear that you are speaking of the Charismatic Renewal as not following the Church. If so, you are flying in the face of many humble and obedient priests, religious, and lay Catholics.
We have a consevative Pope, if you wich to use labels.
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
You are correct. But is he listened to?
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NightRider
Guest
This is a rather interesting and curious thread! I’m not sure what to make of it at all!! 
R
RBushlow
Guest
No, you cannot. Charismatic Catholics are imbued with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the gift of tongs. We follow the strictures of 1 Cor 14, however. This is one of the ways to discern true Holy Spirit gifts, if they take the admonitions contained in Holy Scripture seriously.
Yours in Christ.
M
Mysty101
Guest
JP II is very supportive of the Charismatic movement.
SuZ
M
Mysty101
Guest
Tru calls it babling, but scripture speaks of “groans that words cannot express”.
What will you believe?
SuZ
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
“groans that words cannot express” Mysty, GROANS! Not language, not phrases, and not syllables. GROANS! Groans is no language!!!Furthermore as you quoted correctly: words cannot express it, because they are inexpressible. Simply, no words exist to express it! 
M
Mijoy2
Guest
I greatly appreciate the feedback to my question from those of both sides of the topic.
Those who come down on both sides (praying in tongues being a gift from the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues being otherwise) all seem (regardless of thier respective viewpoint) to be people of great Faith.
Here, I suppose, I need to confess something. To be honest with you all, and be honest with myself, I probably lack the degree of Faith you all posses. I seem to be in a perpetual search for the tiniest granual of supernatural proof that trancends pure Faith. I can’t seem to reach the treasured level you all seem to be at. So I search. I grasp at everything that exposes a possiblity of evidence beyond pure belief.
Examples of this would include:
Apparitions of the Blessed Mother.
Biblical Prophesies (both Messianic and otherwise)
Miracles of healing
Speaking in tongues.
More.
With each of these issues I find that if I put as much time and effort into my work as I do exploring these controversal “miracles” I’d be top in my field. Although, truth be told, each time I seem to go down a deadend path. Let’s take each of these one at a time.
Apparitions of the Blessed Mother:
We can’t even agree on whether the Miracle of the Sun really happened. The claim is 70,000 people witnessed it. Protestants will say itdid not happen. If it did it was the work of the Devil not our Blessed Mother. However we claim that one of the “proofs” of the resurrection is the fact that 500 people all saw Jesus at the same time following his crucifiction. We are called to believe 500 but we doubt 70,000 (protestants esspecially. they claim we should believe i the resurrection because 500 witnessed it, but the 70,000 where just nutso)? Where is the integrity there? And didn’t hundreds of people follow and believe Jim Jones at the peoples temple in Jonestown, even to thier demise? Numbers, seems to be not a trustworthy evidence to truth.
Other questions emerge: Why only Catholics? Why is it secretive? What would our Blessed Mother have to gain byu creating these controversies? Seems we’d all be better off with out the apparitions then the debate over thier authenticities. Why not more often? Why not more corresponding miracles/ What about Medjugorje? Does this discredit Fatima and Lourdes?
Biblical Prophesies:
They are written in very symbolic language of which many interpretations can be had (and many do). With a book of 1200 pages of small print, in symbolic language we could make a case that giraffes can fly if we spent enough time. Remeber how in the 60’s someone found enough proof in Beatle records and album covers to “prove” Paul McCarney was dead? Does this discredit Isaiah 53?
Miracles of Healing:
Why are limbs never restored? Why bother healing if it is only temporary anyway? Why not other miracles such as a dog turning into a cat? Or a midget becoming 6’2"? Is it because these are more verifiable then cancer suddenly disappearing?
Speaking in tongues:
What is the point? What good comes of it? Why the dispute?
Continued:
Those who come down on both sides (praying in tongues being a gift from the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues being otherwise) all seem (regardless of thier respective viewpoint) to be people of great Faith.
Here, I suppose, I need to confess something. To be honest with you all, and be honest with myself, I probably lack the degree of Faith you all posses. I seem to be in a perpetual search for the tiniest granual of supernatural proof that trancends pure Faith. I can’t seem to reach the treasured level you all seem to be at. So I search. I grasp at everything that exposes a possiblity of evidence beyond pure belief.
Examples of this would include:
Apparitions of the Blessed Mother.
Biblical Prophesies (both Messianic and otherwise)
Miracles of healing
Speaking in tongues.
More.
With each of these issues I find that if I put as much time and effort into my work as I do exploring these controversal “miracles” I’d be top in my field. Although, truth be told, each time I seem to go down a deadend path. Let’s take each of these one at a time.
Apparitions of the Blessed Mother:
We can’t even agree on whether the Miracle of the Sun really happened. The claim is 70,000 people witnessed it. Protestants will say itdid not happen. If it did it was the work of the Devil not our Blessed Mother. However we claim that one of the “proofs” of the resurrection is the fact that 500 people all saw Jesus at the same time following his crucifiction. We are called to believe 500 but we doubt 70,000 (protestants esspecially. they claim we should believe i the resurrection because 500 witnessed it, but the 70,000 where just nutso)? Where is the integrity there? And didn’t hundreds of people follow and believe Jim Jones at the peoples temple in Jonestown, even to thier demise? Numbers, seems to be not a trustworthy evidence to truth.
Other questions emerge: Why only Catholics? Why is it secretive? What would our Blessed Mother have to gain byu creating these controversies? Seems we’d all be better off with out the apparitions then the debate over thier authenticities. Why not more often? Why not more corresponding miracles/ What about Medjugorje? Does this discredit Fatima and Lourdes?
Biblical Prophesies:
They are written in very symbolic language of which many interpretations can be had (and many do). With a book of 1200 pages of small print, in symbolic language we could make a case that giraffes can fly if we spent enough time. Remeber how in the 60’s someone found enough proof in Beatle records and album covers to “prove” Paul McCarney was dead? Does this discredit Isaiah 53?
Miracles of Healing:
Why are limbs never restored? Why bother healing if it is only temporary anyway? Why not other miracles such as a dog turning into a cat? Or a midget becoming 6’2"? Is it because these are more verifiable then cancer suddenly disappearing?
Speaking in tongues:
What is the point? What good comes of it? Why the dispute?
Continued:
M
Mijoy2
Guest
Please, I don’t desire to come across as being a person of no faith. I pray for help with these issues. I go to confession regularily, sometimes weekly and confess the problem I have with my Faith. I often say the Rosary. I am not writing this post to advocate nonbelief. I struggle and am in a constant search. However I’d be lying of i stated that these so called miracles being so controversal, so disputable, so unprovable and so seeming pointless didn’t trouble me. I know I should believe purely on Faith. But I can’t seem to stop myself from reachig for these evidences, these proofs.
It’s distressing and troubling. Either the people in these forums are of much greater Faith then I, or they are more reluctant to express thier doubts when they have them. I am not sure which. I can only keep hoping for more Faith. But I think I am going to die searching.
Okay, I’ve said enough. I hope I didn’t offend.
It’s distressing and troubling. Either the people in these forums are of much greater Faith then I, or they are more reluctant to express thier doubts when they have them. I am not sure which. I can only keep hoping for more Faith. But I think I am going to die searching.
Okay, I’ve said enough. I hope I didn’t offend.
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
Mijoy, I do not know what to tell you other than to offer yourself to God. You already desire him. All it takes is a daily offering of self. It can be as simple as God I offer you myself may your will be done for me. He will most certainly not spurn you my friend. Faith and love are gifts, these are not something we can bring about; all we can do is make ourselves open to receive them. It is not an abstract idea loving God above all else. Nothing compares to the sweetness of his presence. Who could satisfy the human heart better than its own maker?
T
Theodora
Guest
Yes the Pope speaks 8 of them.
M
Mysty101
Guest
God bless you with His peace.
Please just lay all these painfull thoughts at the Foot of the Cross
and if you can’t do that BEG Jesus to take them from you. He will.
Jesus never promised us a Rose garden, but He did promise to help us through all life’s difficulties.
We have no way of knowing why God chooses to intervene where He does. I don’t think He would change a dog into a cat, since there doesn’t seem to be any reason for that, but yes we all ask why He iintervenes in some physical illnesses and not others.
But we KNOW He will give everyone peace if they will only accept it.
And remember He gives peace not as the world gives (peace around us) He gives us the inner peace which laste forever.
Love & Prayers,
SuZ
We can try to help you with your questions later
M
Mysty101
Guest
Now that really added to the thread.Yes the Pope speaks 8 of them.
SuZ
M
Mijoy2
Guest
I appreciate this. I feel I have Faith and often find myself caught up in the Mystery and awe of God. The beauty of my surroundings, the love I have for the ocean, the way it has become evident to me that love begets love and that showing and exhibiting love seems to be the key to peace and happiness. All of these things lay evidence to a creator; to the Truth of the words of Jesus while on earth.
Having said this though I am constantly haunted by a little intellectual devil on my shoulder who is always whispering in my ear the ‘foolishness’ of this belief. He constantly disputes with an intellectual counter to all the evidence of which we call “the Holy Spirit working within us”.
Every ‘point’ (if you will) of faith that we have has a valid intellectual argument diameterically opposing it. For example how do we know that this indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not simply a naturalistic phenomenon, a self brainwashing that is inherent in our evolved state that better enables us to survive? We are the only species that has the intellectual capacity to understand that we will die. To balance this reality, we, humans, have masterminded without even realizing it, this entire plan of what we call salvation to help us handle the fact that death is unaviodable. Someone began a wonderful little story and it evolved over time.
This is an example of what this little devil is constantly whispering in my ear.
I’m a recent revert. I saw my life going to hell. Coming back to faith (to whatever degree this faith may be) has bettered my life 10 fold. This is apparent to me. Learning to recognize pride in myself and learning that my life’s choices was dictated by this pride has helped not only me but my family. It truly seems the giving of love begets love.
Maybe I simply need more time, maybe this experience is a growing one. I read the words of the majority in these forums and thier faith seems unwithered. Prior to coming back to faith I used to think only people of low intelligence believed in a God. I’ve certainly learned differently since coming back and being exposed to some of the greatest minds ever to walk on two legs. St Thomas, Augustine many many others. Current great theological minds such as Scott Hahn, many many others. I’ve truly been humbled.
All I need now is to learn to shoo that annoying little guy on my shoulder.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
Thank you. This was warm, genuine and appreciated.
P
pnewton
Guest
I have never spoken in tongues, yet I understand prayer when words do not suffice. Sometimes in prayer, groans and tears are our only way to express ourself. Just as in times of extreme pain we find it difficult to communicate with our friends and family, so communication with God must rely on His ability to know our heart.
The charism of tongues was originally intended as a means of spreading the gospel and this aspect is still active today. I think too often this most important gift is overshadowed by the prayer language refered to as tongues.
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