tongues

  • Thread starter Thread starter edwinG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
tru_dvotion:
… and you are?
Click to expand...
asking for validation.

Something about your posts just doesn’t set right with me, and you are too evasive.
I would rather not respond to your advice
Click to expand...
I don’t recall giving you any advice, but what about my questions about your negative experiences?

*This was a Catholic LISS? With authentic leadership connected to a Parish or other Catholic organization?
SuZ
 
Tru_dvotion, You are arguing with your mind and drawing conclusions that are your own interpretation of scripture. I can read the same scriptures and draw a completely different meaning from them. I think you have a preconceived prejudice against this working of the Holy Spirit. I do agree with you that there is sometimes too much emphasis on the gift of tongues and abuses regarding it’s use, but I caution you to not try to interpret a narrow definition of how the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest this charism. I believe that Paul was teaching about how the gift should be used in the Church proper. In other words, he is laying down ground rules for the sake of order during the Mass, or whatever the early Church service consisted of. He is also stressing the importance of real conversion. Don’t spend inordinate amounts of time engrossed in praying in tongues. The purpose of living in the Church community is to help each other grow in maturity and wisdom. Nowhere does Paul say that we shouldn’t pray in tongues at all. Nor does he say that tongues are strictly for an introduction to an important word of knowledge or prophecy. Finally I have to say that you should set the Holy Father right because he does NOT agree with your narrow interpretation. Nor does Cardinal Arinze:

Catholic charismatics encouraged by Pontiff

Rimini, Apr. 30 (CWNews.com) - In a message to members of the Catholic charismatic renewal, Pope John Paul II (bio - news) has called for “that interior conversion without which man can find it difficult to resist the illusions of the flesh and the concupiscence of the world.”

The Pope’s message was addressed to representatives of about 1,800 different charismatic groups, representing a total of about 150,000 people, who are meeting this weekend in Rimini, Italy. The meeting will hear from a number of important Church leaders, including Cardinal Salvatore de Georgi of Palermo; Cardinal Ennio Antonelli of Florence; Cardinal Giovannit Battista Re, the prefect of the Congregation for Bishops; and Cardinal Francis Arinze (bio - news), the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship.

In his written message to the group, the Holy Father encouraged charismatic Catholics to pursue their path of spiritual renewal and evangelization. He said that “our time has a great need of men and woman who know how to communicate the beauty of the Gospel and the beauty of new life in the Spirit.”
 
Dear friends

Gosh!!! This thread has sure got personal, let’s not do that friends, we may differ in opinion, but it is never wise to sound personal. I think that the Holy Spirit is capable of doing anything, He is God!! As such yes there are people wandering about out there who do say they have some gift and clearly do not, mumble some stuff and say it is tongues, this on the other hand does not mean there are people with the gift of tongues out there and the gift of interpretation, so let’s be reasonable about this, it is possible it does happen and people are genuine, despite those out there that are spiritually proud and claim they have this gift when they do not, shame on them for causing this sort of uproar, if everyone was genuine, there would not be such doubt over it.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear SuZ,

Validation? Evasiveness? Who are you to ask for my references? I will pray for my dear. You may not agree with my interpretation, but I cannot fathom why you feel the need for a personal attack? You have called me sedevacantist in a previous thread, I wonder what other label you may come up for me now? If you cannot debate theology, please do not resort to personal attacks or to uncharitable behavior. If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen dear. God bless you and may you have a peaceful night.
 
Binary Paul:
…
In his written message to the group, the Holy Father encouraged charismatic Catholics to pursue their path of spiritual renewal and evangelization. He said that “our time has a great need of men and woman who know how to communicate the beauty of the Gospel and the beauty of new life in the Spirit.”
Click to expand...
Now doesn’t that speak volumes! Thank you for the whole of the post too, Paul…this above part of it really spoke to me… Annunciata:)
 
40.png
tru_dvotion:
Dear SuZ,

Validation? Evasiveness? Who are you to ask for my references? I will pray for my dear. You may not agree with my interpretation, but I cannot fathom why you feel the need for a personal attack? You have called me sedevacantist in a previous thread, I wonder what other label you may come up for me now? If you cannot debate theology, please do not resort to personal attacks or to uncharitable behavior. If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen dear. God bless you and may you have a peaceful night.
Click to expand...
It is you who will not answer direct questions, nor give any validation for your interpretations. Why would I take your word on anything, if I have no idea of your qualifications?
 
Suz, I agree with your comment concerning exorcism. At the time I was unaware of church teaching and had no intention of disobedience. Things like this happen sometimes. It is not necessary to hide the issue, hence my admonition to use proper channels. The Holy Spirit does work as it chooses. My current task is to work to bring the renewal into the center of the church community. If the renewal were obediently serving the parish family, then these problems would usually be handled properly. I do understand the church’s concerns and respect the authority of my Bishop.
 
Your posts are wonderful.

My concern is that readers respect you, and might not understand that we are never, never to attempt to deal with even the suspicion of an evil presence.

SuZ
 
Again Tru, you can’t evaluate what you haven’t seen. I have said over and over again, that it depends on where you are and who you are, to which way you move in the charismatic renewal: towards yourself, and the gifts, or to the sacrifice, and to the building up of the church. A whopping approximate 100 million Catholics are involved in the charismatic renewal. No, DUH! Some screwy things are going to happen. There are about 1 billion Catholics in the world. Screwy things are going to happen all over with the liturgy, in spirituality, in morals, in faith, in everything on the map! You can’t just pin point just a section of the charismatic renewal, something you’re not exactly a fan of, and then start attacking it. It’s not happening all over the place, and not everything you bring up is true everywhere and with everybody. Popes have spoken on this and have approved it. They’ve actually said to the church that we need to return to our charismatic roots, not to mean that everyone should do this. This isn’t for everyone, but for those who are fine with this, it’s okay. You don’t have to like it, but when you go against what popes have said, then you’re going a little too far to enforce your view on something. Our Holy Father is very wise, I don’t think you would be putting your own wisdom above his and that of others before him.
 
Also remember that the Holy Spirit is our Mother Mary’s spouse. Ask her for clarification on how to respond and properly respect Him.
 
I feel a bit responsible. It appears from looking back through this thread that it was my post that began the debate. The people in this thread (as I believe I expressed earlier) appear to be of devout faith, of which I admire.

But what appears to have gotten lost since I interrupted, was any answers or responses (with few exceptions) to the questions and concerns I posted. What appears to have happened is the pride of the respondants has taken over the issue, each side proving thier respective position. I am sorry I interviened.
 
40.png
robertaf:
Hi
May I invite you to find my post in a thread called Eucharistic Miracles. I don’t remember which group it is in and I am at work so cannot search right now.
God allowed me to experience a miracle that was seen by many people, including our Priest and Deacon. It was, like all miracles I think, to increase our faith and in doing it, helped to increase my faith that Miracles do happen, even today.
I hope you read this and it helps you a little bit.
In the meantime, you are in my prayers.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much. I’d like to somehow pursue this further. But regardless, your post made my day.
 
40.png
Mijoy2:
I feel a bit responsible. It appears from looking back through this thread that it was my post that began the debate. The people in this thread (as I believe I expressed earlier) appear to be of devout faith, of which I admire.

But what appears to have gotten lost since I interrupted, was any answers or responses (with few exceptions) to the questions and concerns I posted. What appears to have happened is the pride of the respondants has taken over the issue, each side proving thier respective position. I am sorry I interviened.
Click to expand...
Hi Mijoy,
I haven’t got a clue as to why this subject gets so wacked out whenever it comes up! I don’t think that you disrupted anything.
God Bless, Annunciata:)
 
40.png
Annunciata:
Hi Mijoy,
I haven’t got a clue as to why this subject gets so wacked out whenever it comes up! I don’t think that you disrupted anything.
God Bless, Annunciata:)
Click to expand...
Thanks.

I am trying to learn to get to where you and others are at in your Faith. So I sometimes intercept threads and try to get to the bottom of issues. I’m learning to keep my mouth shut and spend more time talking to the Holy Spirit and requesting His help. Seems Love and Faith is something that should come without controversy. The fact that Christians are in dispute over matters goes a long way in inhibiting my Faith (speaking mostly of Protestant vs. Catholic here). Wouldn’t we think that an almighty God would somehow intervene and put and end to it all? If all Christians were on the same page, it would go a LONG way in strengthening our Faith and Alleviating
doubt.
 
Mijoy2, Don’t be dismayed, controversy does sometimes bear good fruit.

However, it is more profitable to talk less and pray more.🙂

Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to you. Pray this with a spirit of submission. God is always faithful!!!
 
Dear Paul,

You made three points. The first one is regarding tongues. Yes you are reading it differently. You read what you have learned in charismatic circles. Most of it is nothing more than the twisting of language. If one hears it often enough, one actually starts to believe it. But my friend, words do not lie, all you need to do is to take out a dictionary and check out some of those definitions. I have done that. Have you? Now I am not speaking about parables or about symbolic language used in the Old Testament. I am strictly speaking about Paul’s letters, because after all, the charismatic movement has based its teaching on Paul’s letters. But Paul’s teachings are quite clear. I do not have the preoccupation with tongues, no, that is the charismatic approach, not mine. In a different thread I analyzed the slaying in the spirit phenomena as well. There are other abuses of course, but why spend the time and energy listing all of them? These two are plenty and have resulted in too much debate already.

Your second point is regarding the moving of the Holy Spirit and the charism he grants to the faithful. The Holy Spirit DOES grant charism; these have been evident for two thousand years, long before the Pentecostal movement was even heard of. To suggest it otherwise, we would negate close to two thousand years of true grace in the Church. Where was the Holy Spirit until the sixties? Right here, in the Church, thank you very much. It is not I who put the charisms of the Holy Spirit in a narrow box, no, charismatics do that, when they claim, there is no Holy Spirit operating outside the charismatic movement! What a lie! What blatant disregard of the Holy Spirit! Who spoke through the prophets? Who has led the Church? Who produced our rich assortment of Saints?

Your third point is the Holy Father endorsing it: “our time has a great need of men and woman who know how to communicate the beauty of the Gospel and the beauty of new life in the Spirit.” I see no endorsement in these words of the Holy Father for what goes on in prayer groups, charismatic conferences, life teen, and several of the other lay initiated movements that are fed by the renewal. That is all the renewal is; a lay initiated movement. Yes I have seen the papal addresses, I am also aware that the Holy Father’s own household has individuals belonging to the renewal, I am also aware there are bishops and clergy who are pushing for it. But I am also aware, there are priest and bishops who barely tolerate it in their churches, and personally would have NOTHING to do with it. And why should they? Why should any Catholic be expected to follow a movement or any movement? You people make it sound like it is our duty to belong to it, and we are heretics if we do not. What arrogance! Out of 1 billion Catholics there are 100 thousand who belong to the renewal? It has been around for little over thirty years and now we all have to subscribe to it? Get a grip! In my own parish, we have about 4000 souls. There are about thirty people who go across town to one of the other parishes for their weekly prayer meeting. It really is not such a big deal if you ask me.
 
The trumph card of many Charismatics is, “Holy Father endorses it”. Recall that Holy father also approve of SSPX. Also recall that Pope Zosimus endorse Pelagius and Celestius, etc. And the endorsement of the Holy Father is not really specific and broad in nature.

Plus, I have seen or heard ANYONE who claim to be able to interpret tongue.

Tongue are mostly fake. It needs to go away. Charismatics also need to go away. It’s very much a group with the spirit of “Protestant wannabes”
 
It is certainly true: The gift of speaking tongues should not be used in the context of public worship unless there is an interpretation. However, those who rightly point this out ought not to continue on and condemn speaking in tongues when there is no interpretation. The very fact that Paul instructs the Corinthians to not get up and speak in tongues to all assembled unless there is an interpretation demonstrates that it is possible to have a legitimate occurence of this gift without an interpretation. Paul also indicates that there is a benefit to speaking in tongues, even when there is no interpretation. Perhaps one could argue that tongues with an interpretation is better, but that doesn’t prove at all that tongues without an interpretation is bad.

For an illustration of how the gift of tongues may be used in the life of a Christian:

A friend of mine told me that at one point he was praying with two other people. They weren’t a particularly “charismatic” group of people, but one of them began speaking tongues while they were praying. The second one interpreted it, and, unbeknownst to him, had a direct application to a situation in the third persons life. Why would this happen? Why wouldn’t God just give the third person a message directly, or in plain English?

I think it’s because God has so ordered the Church so that the hand cannot say to the foot, “I don’t need you.” This experience not only gave the third person something they needed, it was done in such a way that it required the cooperation of two others, who cooperated in such a way that they had little choice but to give glory to God for his greatness.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top