tongues

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Please realize that although Praying in Tongues is sometimes also called Speaking in Tongues, it is a totally different aspect of the gift of tongues. I often pray in tongues in praise and for healing, but I have never spoken in tongues in the teaching manner.

This is from the Archdiocese of Melbourne CCR site
  • The Gift of Praying in Tongues: This is a way of praying without words — a form of contemplative prayer that is very useful in personal prayer and in prayer ministry. It enables the person praying to focus on God without worrying about finding the right words.
SuZ
 
Miljoy,
I am sorry for contributing to the mess regarding Tongues, but I am a daily Communicant, and connected with a Catholic prayer group, under the guidance of our Pastor, who does attend regularly–also connected with a Catholic Conference under the Archdiocese. I cannot let these personal opinions slam the wonderful Charismatic movement.

I visited the Holyland in 1999, One of the highlights of the trip was standing in the Cenacle (upper room) praying with all the groups of Pilgrims from many different countries, hearing the Tongues rise up in one voice of praise. It was truly the “Language of Angels”

True, it is not for everyone, and some people have had bad experiences, but from what was reported, this was not an authentic Catholic group, even if they professed to be. Uncontrolable tongues coming up spontaneously at inappropriate times is something which must be addressed. This is not a prayer or praise tongue.

I am not saying there are no authentic non-Catholic groups, but I am very Catholic, and just as I would not attend a non Catholic Mass, I would not attend a non-Catholic prayer group. I have no objection to an ecumenical service, as long as there is some Catholic leadership present to advise me if there may be something against Catholic teaching in a talk, which I may not pick up.

That being said I will try to address some of your questions
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Mijoy2:
Seems we’d all be better off with out the apparitions then the debate over thier authenticities. Why not more often? Why not more corresponding miracles/ What about Medjugorje? Does this discredit Fatima and Lourdes?
The Catholic Church is very cautious in approving apparitions. I believe they will not approve until the apparitions and messages cease, to be certain that nothing in error will come from the alleged apparition. Again, this is not for everyone, and you are not obligated to believe even approved apparitions. If it bothers you—try to put it out of your mind. It is not something for you to distress over, since it is not a required belief. Non-belief in an apparition is definitely not an indication of weak Faith. I am sort of undecided about apparitions, especially non-approved. I have never been to an apparition site, but I have heard that once you go—you believe.

Perhaps you may want to post some of your other questions separately in different threads to get out of this negative thread?

Love & Prayers,

SuZ
 
Here’s another good explanation of a prayer tongue

I think this is from the Johannesburg CCR site (they have a very extensive site)
A FORM OF PRAYER

Tongue-speaking can also be a prayer: “A man who speaks in a tongue is talking not to men but to God. No one understands him because he utters mysteries in the Spirit” (1 Cor. 14:2). “Talking to God” defines prayer pretty accurately. Notice that in this case the language does not appear to be an intelligible one.

St Paul tells us some of the characteristics of this type of prayer. Even though the one praying does not understand the words he utters (1 Cor 14:2, 13), nevertheless this activity does him good (1 Cor. 14:4). It is a kind of prayer that leaves the intellect in neutral, so to speak (1 Cor 14:14), allowing scope for the deeper levels of the human spirit to express praise to God and yearning for His presence.

Since it is true prayer that strengthens the individual, Paul is thankful that he speaks in tongues, and he wants everyone to have the gift (1 Cor. 14:5, 18, 39). He carefully warns, however, that if confers no badge of privilege. It has value only in relation to love, without which the tongues of men and angels are mere clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13:1).

SuZ
 
It is certainly true: The gift of speaking tongues should not be used in the context of public worship unless there is an interpretation. However, those who rightly point this out ought not to continue on and condemn speaking in tongues when there is no interpretation.
Dear Prometheum,

Are you suggesting to against Paul’s instructions? Are we above it today? Please explain! Well it would seem that we are, but not in the way you would like it. The tongues of Pentecost are done for now. DONE! They are over! We do not need it much in this day and age. If we should ever need it, it is certainly in God’s power to gift it again when a circumstance would require it.
The very fact that Paul instructs the Corinthians to not get up and speak in tongues to all assembled unless there is an interpretation demonstrates that it is possible to have a legitimate occurence of this gift without an interpretation.
All it shows to me, they were into the gift a little too much and were abusing it. Why would you want to emulate that?
For an illustration of how the gift of tongues may be used in the life of a Christian:

A friend of mine told me that at one point he was praying with two other people. They weren’t a particularly “charismatic” group of people, but one of them began speaking tongues while they were praying. The second one interpreted it, and, unbeknownst to him, had a direct application to a situation in the third persons life. Why would this happen? Why wouldn’t God just give the third person a message directly, or in plain English?
Maybe for the same reason people are duped by psychics?
I think it’s because God has so ordered the Church so that the hand cannot say to the foot, “I don’t need you.” This experience not only gave the third person something they needed, it was done in such a way that it required the cooperation of two others, who cooperated in such a way that they had little choice but to give glory to God for his greatness.
I will not demand your credentials for your interpretation of Scriptures Prometheum, (I suppose that would be Mysty’s job) but I certainly disagree with your explanation. You see, one on the things you may want to look at, what precedes and follows a statement in the Bible. This generally gives us an indication what context the sentence was meant to be.
 
Mysty101 said:
Tongue-speaking can also be a prayer: “A man who speaks in a tongue is talking not to men but to God. No one understands him because he utters mysteries in the Spirit” (1 Cor. 14:2). “Talking to God” defines prayer pretty accurately. Notice that in this case the language does not appear to be an intelligible one.
In *1 Corinthians 14:2, “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.” *Paul means the one who speaks in tongue speaks to God and not to anyone else means that no one else would understand him, except for God. This is not an exhortation to speak in tongues in order to communicate to God! It is a rebuke for speaking publicly in a language that no one understands. Paul was speaking about the tongue of Pentecost and not about a private language. Here is the clue in the next lines: 1 Corinthians 14:4, “(For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive.”

Yes, I know, you got it off a legitimate Church site. Now here is MY inquiry, what are the credentials of the writer? Let me guess: he is involved in the renewal! That may make it legitimate in your opinion, but certainly not in mine.
 
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Prometheum_x:
It is certainly true: The gift of speaking tongues should not be used in the context of public worship unless there is an interpretation. However, those who rightly point this out ought not to continue on and condemn speaking in tongues when there is no interpretation. The very fact that Paul instructs the Corinthians to not get up and speak in tongues to all assembled unless there is an interpretation demonstrates that it is possible to have a legitimate occurence of this gift without an interpretation. Paul also indicates that there is a benefit to speaking in tongues, even when there is no interpretation. Perhaps one could argue that tongues with an interpretation is better, but that doesn’t prove at all that tongues without an interpretation is bad.
Man. Why are you reversing the word of God?

Where is this benefit of speaking in tongue when you do not edify the Church since there’s no interpretation? And Paul clearly said how he rather speak 5 understandable words than thousands of useless tongue.

You argument is like how Protestant want to avoid James 2:24.
 
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Mysty101:
Please realize that although Praying in Tongues is sometimes also called Speaking in Tongues, it is a totally different aspect of the gift of tongues. I often pray in tongues in praise and for healing, but I have never spoken in tongues in the teaching manner.

This is from the Archdiocese of Melbourne CCR site
SuZ
You can pray all the toungue you want. Paul does not forbid if you pray alone and only you understand it. But if you do so in front of the faithfuls that is a an obvious disobedience.
 
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beng:
You can pray all the toungue you want. Paul does not forbid if you pray alone and only you understand it. But if you do so in front of the faithfuls that is a an obvious disobedience.
You have not convinced me or many others of this interpretation. Do you have any documentation? There is much documentation to the contrary (by recognized authorities including Catholics Priests --even the preacher to the papal household) on the CCR websites.

SuZ
 
Beng & tru
Of course you can refuse to believe anything I quote, but how do you expect people to believe your interpretation (which is by you, and you will neither give your name or credentials) when you will not believe documented articles?
**
A** Charismatic Catholic Preaches to the Pope. Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa delivers homilies to Pope John Paul II and about 60 bishops and cardinals every Friday during Lent and Advent, The Washington Post said. The pope appointed him in 1980, three years after Cantalamessa received the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” an experience described in the Book of Acts that empowers Christians with spiritual gifts to heal others and speak in unknown tongues. …The experience altered Cantalamessa’s ministry, he said. He said he felt convinced of “the truth of the manifestation of the Spirit” and left his prestigious teaching post at the University of Milan to spread the message that the God is moving in a greater way. He frequently “sings in tongues a beautiful way of prayer without passing through words.”** …Cantalamessa, a Franciscan friar, recently spoke at St. Mark’s Catholic Church in Vienna, Va. He discussed the modern application of spiritual gifts and exhorted congregants to do more to evangelize their friends and neighbors. “Jesus is Lord. God raised Him from the dead. And if you believe that in your heart, you are what?” he asked the crowd. “Saved!” they replied in unison. …Pope John Paul II supports the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. “The current holy father is favorably disposed to charismatic renewal,” Francis Sullivan, a Jesuit priest and Boston College professor, said. The movement, which began in the 1960s, continues to spread in developing nations, but has slowed somewhat in the United States, he said. He witnessed people “singing in tongues” in 1975 in St. Peter’s Basilica, he said. (Religion Today, 9-8-99) ELB **
 
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tru_dvotion:
In *1 Corinthians 14:2, “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.” *
Paul means …
How do YOU know what Paul means? This has been my question all along. It is not a question of if I can debate theology with you, it is a question of will I, and I won’t.

You have accused me of personal attacks, just because I don’t like your insults, and have asked you for documentation.

SuZ
 
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Mysty101:
You have not convinced me or many others of this interpretation. Do you have any documentation? There is much documentation to the contrary (by recognized authorities including Catholics Priests --even the preacher to the papal household) on the CCR websites.

SuZ
Here is the verse

1 Cor 14:27-28
27* If any speak with a tongue**, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course: and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church and speak to himself and to God.*

If you feel that these verses have any other interpretation than what it clearly says do provide that alternative interpretation.

Untill then, the verses speak for themselves. Anyone who object has the spirit of disobedience.
 
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Mysty101:
Beng & tru
Of course you can refuse to believe anything I quote, but how do you expect people to believe your interpretation (which is by you, and you will neither give your name or credentials) when you will not believe documented articles?

Give me another interpretation of 1 Cor 14:27-28.
 
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Mysty101:
How do YOU know what Paul means? This has been my question all along.
How do I know what Paul mean? By reading his letter. Simple as that. It’s very plain. If you feel that there are other interpretation than what it plainly says, provide one and give support. Patristic if you have.
It is not a question of if I can debate theology with you, it is a question of will I, and I won’t.
Fine. Your action speaks volume.
You have accused me of personal attacks, just because I don’t like your insults, and have asked you for documentation.

SuZ
I’ve never accused you of personal attack.
 
Beng,

That post was addressed to you and tru—you answered some of my responses to tru.

I gave you documentation of interpretations of passages which contradict your view, so perhaps you do not know for sure what Paul meant.

And I definitely agree with you in regards to speaking in tongues, but a prayer/praise tongue is different, even if it is referred to as speaking, it is not a teaching tongue, and therefore does not need interpretation.

SuZ
 
Envoy Magazine

Q I recently attended a meeting of a charismatic renewal group. I had heard of the phenomenon of “speaking in tongues,” but hadn’t ever witnessed it. A friend explained that it is one of the “original gifts” given to the Church at the time of the Apostles, but that it had become uncommon until the new outpouring of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in our times. What do you say?

A Well, it’s not what I say that counts, but what Scripture and the Sacred Tradition of the Church say. I’ll answer by following St. Paul’s treatment of the “gift of tongues” in 1 Corinthians 14.

It has always been the constant and unquestioned teaching of both Scripture and Tradition that the gift of tongues is a miraculous charism, whereby the speaker prays to God or instructs the hearers in a language unknown to him, which he is able to speak by a special grace. If anyone is present who understands that language, either because he knows it naturally or has a special gift of interpretation akin to the gift of prophecy, then the gift of tongues edifies and instructs the hearers. If not, then the speaker speaks only to God in a manner more or less private, and of relatively little importance for the community.

St. Paul is quite clear in his preference for interpreted tongues over the uninterpreted variety, the importance of building up the Church being greater than that of building up the individual. In addition, the use of the gift in church is to be carried out in an orderly fashion. He particularly criticizes a situation in which those present all speak in tongues together. The Apostle describes this as "a command of the Lord."

St. Augustine
teaches that in the first days of the Church, this gift was especially necessary in order for the gospel to be preached swiftly to all the nations of the world, in a manner which gave miraculous proof of the divine origin of the doctrine taught. He goes on to say that since now the Church really does speak all the languages of the world and is found in every land, the gift is less necessary. In the 32nd of his treatises on the Gospel of John, he adds, "Nowadays when the Holy Spirit has just been received, no one speaks in the languages of all the nations, since the Church already speaks the languages of all the nations, and if one is not in her, he does not receive the Holy Spirit."

St. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologiae, offers the same doctrine as St. Paul and St. Augustine, but he goes on further to infer from St. Augustine’s words a connection between the practice of Christ and of the Church. Aquinas, the Church’s officially proclaimed “Common Doctor,” points out that Our Lord surely had the knowledge of all languages, but because He was sent to preach to only one nation, the Jews, He used only His “mother tongue.” So too, the Church, which has the Holy Spirit, being now in every land and speaking all languages naturally, does not need to use this miraculous gift as much as she did previously.

Even so, the gift is still given. There are true examples of this gift in the lives of the saints. For example, St. Pachomius in the fourth century, St. Norbert in the 12th century, St. Anthony of Padua in the 13th century, St. Vincent Ferrer in the 14th century and St. Bernardine of Siena in the 15th century. I even know personally a priest who, while leading a pilgrimage at the monastery where Padre Pio lived in San Giovanni Rotondo in Italy, invoked Padre Pio and was able to hear confessions and give advice in English even before he learned English. This was a clear example of the gift used to “disclose the secrets of hearts,” as St. Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 14:25.

cont below
 
What is often referred to as tongues today might be better described as ecstatic speaking — the expression of devout emotion which cannot be put into words. Even so, it can have an orderly, practical artistic expression, like the long, protracted syllables in some Gregorian chants, or the beautiful ison or “droning” in Eastern Christian chant.

St. Augustine speaks of the “jubilation” which exceeds the bounds of words and set melody, like workers in the field who sing a kind of “fa-la-la.” Indeed, this kind of musical passage is called a jubilus in Gregorian chant.

Any true spiritual renewal must involve a return to the profound depths of Catholic Tradition and to the sound tastes and preferences of the saints.

On a personal note, I was present at an international Charismatic gathering in Rome in 1984. One of the conference leaders, a famous writer and speaker in the renewal, vehemently encouraged all those present to speak in tongues right away and all at once. He said that every Christian has this gift and that “all you have to do is open your mouth” to do it. Not exactly the teaching of St. Paul.

At the end of the conference, there was a Papal Mass in St. Peter’s, when the Holy Father preached to the assembly of priests involved in the Charismatic renewal. Hardly by chance, he spoke of St. John of the Cross’ “Dark Night of the Soul,” of the senses and of faith, not of emotional release or of special charisms. Although his hearers prayed and sang with various utterances after Holy Communion, he simply watched and listened with fatherly attention. His was the example and authoritative “word of knowledge and of wisdom.”
 
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Mysty101:
Beng,

That post was addressed to you and tru—you answered some of my responses to tru.

I gave you documentation of interpretations of passages which contradict your view, so perhaps you do not know for sure what Paul meant.

SuZ
You mean this?:

*1 Corinthians 14:2, “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.”
*

What do you want this to prove? This does not negate the fact that Paul said to not speak tongue in front of believer if there was no interpretation.

It does not matter if one speak “hold his peace” and pray silently by himself. It is when you use tongue in front of believer without interpretation that you have the spirit of disobedience.

And last I checked spirit of disobedience is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. If it’s not the gift of the Holy Spirit then it is the gift from…
 
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