tongues

[Annunciata]

Binary Paul:

Often workings of the Holy Spirit are disrespected as ‘over-emotionalism’. Is there something dirty about emotion that we should denigrate it? I thought the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to counsel us when he left this earth, is omnipotent and capable of moving as He pleases. I personally think that many Catholics have little experience with a personal and supernatural God. It is easier to relate to the natural world. You see, being open to the Holy Spirit means that you are not always in control of your life.

I think this paragraph and underlined statement speaks volumes!

---

Bless you Paul, Annunciata

 

[Joanna]

edwinG:

Hi,
I do not speak in tongues. Many members of the church I attend do. What is the catholic position? Do Roman Catholics speak in tongues? Does the Pope?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

I confess I haven’t read all the replies. People come down on all sides of this issue as you now know. You can check out some of the other threads on this forum. I’ll just responding to the initial question and repeat my old reply because my response remains the same.

First of all, yes, Roman Catholics speak in tongues and pray in tongues. Almost 2000 years after Pentecost and the gift of tongues is still a gift of the Holy Spirit. Faith and openess to the Holy Spirit are still factors in the receiving and the exercise of this gift as in any gift of the Holy Spirit.

I use the gift of tongues as prayer. That’s what I speak of here. It is a prayer language in which we speak to God in the Spirit. It benefits us because the Holy Spirit is making intercession for us in a deep hidden manner. We don’t need to understand. God hears, knows and responds.

The gift of tongues as prayer is nonconceptual prayer. Think of contemplation, no words or understanding is needed here. This kind of prayer bypasses the understanding to pour out our hearts to God, while our intellect stands by in silence.

When I pray like this I sometimes feel like I am standing by myself listening to the Holy Spirit pour out His experience of me to the Father who smiles or weeps, but definitely hears and knows me. I feel like this because sometimes there is so much surprising expression in the prayer, much more emotion in the words I hear myself speaking than I could have expressed in the English language. Before praying in this way, I won’t have believed there was this much expression waiting to be released within me. Romans 8:26-27 speaks of this experience to me, “The Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the One who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.”

Prayer tongues is truly a useful gift especially when we don’t know how to prayer. It’s also a beautiful gift when exercised in unison with others as the Spirit gives us grace to sing this prayer to glorify God.

Paul says, he would that we all spoke in tongues ( ! Cor 14:5). So tongues must be available to us. It’s also a genuine gift of God and as such not to be passed over lightly because we prefer only the “higher gifts.” Personally, I’ll take anything God is willing to give me, especially the available and the commonplace. If prayer-tongues frees my spirit to speak only to God, how glorious is that!! That I am a baby before God and can only babble mysteries shouldn’t surprise anyone. In this gift of babble, babble is levated to mystery. I pray in faith believing.

Paul used the gift of tongues quite a lot for he says, “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.” (1 Cor 14: 18)

It doesn’t take tons of faith to pray in tongues. As Jesus intimates faith the size of a mustard seed will suffice.

There is also the gift of tongues which is a form of the gift of prophecy. Paul gives instructions for its use in the assembly. I’ll leave this side of the gift for others to discuss saying only that it benefits the whole assembly when interpreted through another gift of the Holy Spirit, the interpretation of Tongues.

Joanna

 

[gnome]

tru_dvotion:

Mijoy,

I do know about the others, but when I was instructed at my first Life in the Spirit Seminar, I just opened my mouth and started to babble. (I did what I was told to do) It did not pour out of me; I kept repeating a couple of syllables. In a week it developed into a few more syllables and I kept repeating the same for fifteen years. When I finally realized what I was doing, I prayed to God to take it away. It persisted, especially during mass. I would just mumble silently the same thing over and over again. How did it sound? I have no clue, I am not a linguist. (probably a cross between English and Hungarian. ) Then I began to consciously NOT use it during the day and mass. I replaced it with real one liners, �Jesus have mercy on me a sinner� etc. Then one day it just disappeared. That is when I realized, it was not a gift from God, it was just a habit I developed. One has to break ones bad habits; one cannot pray to God to have them lifted.

Hello Tru,
your post helps me so much. I am shocked to know you had been there 15 years before got out. I’'ve met people who have
been in 20 years or more and they told me the Holy Spirit makes the Mass very alive for them. I feel the more frequent I attend Mass, the more alive it becomes also. I would have continue w/ charismatic prayer group, but the more I seek, the more I realize what goes on there is not what I’ve seen in the Church I grew up with. I totally agree w/ you that one has to break one’s bad habit, since God never takes away our free will.
You had the experience, please don’t get tired of the topic, you are helping more than you know. Thanks!!!

 

[robertaf]

Mijoy2:

… However I’d be lying of i stated that these so called miracles being so controversal, so disputable, so unprovable and so seeming pointless didn’t trouble me. I know I should believe purely on Faith. But I can’t seem to stop myself from reachig for these evidences, these proofs.

.

Hi
May I invite you to find my post in a thread called Eucharistic Miracles. I don’t remember which group it is in and I am at work so cannot search right now.
God allowed me to experience a miracle that was seen by many people, including our Priest and Deacon. It was, like all miracles I think, to increase our faith and in doing it, helped to increase my faith that Miracles do happen, even today.
I hope you read this and it helps you a little bit.
In the meantime, you are in my prayers.

 

[otm]

tru_dvotion:

You are correct. But is he listened to?

Yes; not by as many as one would wish; but the list is growing.

what we need to keep in mind is that we are all sinners, and ever was it thus; at any given time in history, a percentage of the faithful (?) “listened to the Pope”. Others didn’t…

 

[tru_dvotion]

Yes; not by as many as one would wish; but the list is growing. what we need to keep in mind is that we are all sinners, and ever was it thus; at any given time in history, a percentage of the faithful (?) “listened to the Pope”. Others didn’t…

You are absolutely correct otm about the faithful… but what about our bishops? How often do the bishops ignore the Holy Father and implement what they perceive should be the way to govern and shepherd the flock? Because partial obedience, is disobedience. Obedience is faithful application of the laws and papal decrees. That is not what is happening. And this reflects the Church in North America and in Europe. (I do not know much about the other continents.) There is always an explanation that # xyz is allowing them to interpret the law differently, but in my opinion it is nothing else than disobedience. The faithful is then caught in between if he is aware of such politics. Those of course who are oblivious are safe from the responsibility, but not everyone is oblivious.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

tru_dvotion:

Mijoy,

I do know about the others, but when I was instructed at my first Life in the Spirit Seminar, I just opened my mouth and started to babble. (I did what I was told to do) It did not pour out of me; I kept repeating a couple of syllables. In a week it developed into a few more syllables and I kept repeating the same for fifteen years. When I finally realized what I was doing, I prayed to God to take it away. It persisted, especially during mass. I would just mumble silently the same thing over and over again. How did it sound? I have no clue, I am not a linguist. (probably a cross between English and Hungarian. ) Then I began to consciously NOT use it during the day and mass. I replaced it with real one liners, “Jesus have mercy on me a sinner” etc. Then one day it just disappeared. That is when I realized, it was not a gift from God, it was just a habit I developed. One has to break ones bad habits; one cannot pray to God to have them lifted. I mean if I chew my nails and I pray that God would take it for me… LOL… all I can say is good luck. But to answer your questions:

When one is praying tongues is one aware of the sounds/words one is expressing?

Yes.

Do the sounds being made make sense to the individual making them?

No.

In other words is there self-translating?

No.

Does one feel completely overtaken, or is it more of a feeling of a changed mood?

None of the above.

Hi Word, Why don’t you write sometimes?

Hi Tru, My spirit is saddned.
. I honestly believe in my heart that you were not ready to recieve this gift.I believe that you had doubt in your spirit. I think sometimes leadership in the renewal think that all need to recieve the gift of tongues during the life in the spirit seminars. But the truth is not all are ready to recieve this gift.Only God knows when and to whom He desires to give it. Leadership means well but everyone is at a different level of spirituality. I encourage you to seek Gods Spiritual Gifts in your Christian walk because we walk by His spirit.The real important issue is that you continue to walk in Gods love because without love the gifts are worthless. God Bless.

 

[Annunciata]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Tru, My spirit is saddned.
. I honestly believe in my heart that you were not ready to recieve this gift.I believe that you had doubt in your spirit. I think sometimes leadership in the renewal think that all need to recieve the gift of tongues during the life in the spirit seminars. But the truth is not all are ready to recieve this gift.Only God knows when and to whom He desires to give it. Leadership means well but everyone is at a different level of spirituality. I encourage you to seek Gods Spiritual Gifts in your Christian walk because we walk by His spirit.The real important issue is that you continue to walk in Gods love because without love the gifts are worthless. God Bless.

I’ll have to agree with you… A similar thing happened to me. I didn’t want to speak in tongues (I was afraid of it) …long story and the leadership started encouraging me when I started to make ‘utterances’…then I just began praying in tongues with absolutely no fear…In my case I had to let go and let God… Annunciata

 

[Joanna]

robertaf:

Hi
May I invite you to find my post in a thread called Eucharistic Miracles. I don’t remember which group it is in and I am at work so cannot search right now.
God allowed me to experience a miracle that was seen by many people, including our Priest and Deacon. It was, like all miracles I think, to increase our faith and in doing it, helped to increase my faith that Miracles do happen, even today.
I hope you read this and it helps you a little bit.
In the meantime, you are in my prayers.

Awesome, Roberta. Another “glory to experience” and now I get to pass it on. God is soooooooooo good!

Here’s the post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=261761#post261761

 

[gnome]

Annunciata:

I’ll have to agree with you… A similar thing happened to me. I didn’t want to speak in tongues (I was afraid of it) …long story and the leadership started encouraging me when I started to make ‘utterances’…then I just began praying in tongues with absolutely no fear…In my case I had to let go and let God… Annunciata

I thought God knows when and give to whom He desires. The ones I went to, the leadership does not encourage people to speak in tongues. If I seek for it …something’s wrong.

 

[Mysty101]

gnome:

I thought God knows when and give to whom He desires. The ones I went to, the leadership does not encourage people to speak in tongues. If I seek for it …something’s wrong.

Please remember one thing. The CCR gifts, are not the same as the “Gifts of the Spirit” as described in Corinthians. Yes, those gifts are bestowed and manifested, but not to the extent of the more simple gifts of CCR. Simple prayer for the edification of the community in praise and healing, as opposed to the teaching tongue, which was originally needed to address crowds in which people spoke many different languages. The interpretor would be someone who spoke many of the languages. Today, why would you need to speak in a language which no one understood? It does happen, but not to the extent of a prayer tongue. Prophecy too is more often simple prophecy. There are many healings of emotions and spirit, where the fruit of peace is bestowed —far more often than a miraculous physical healing. God also works through natural means, such as medicine and doctors, but who knows how many seemingly natural healings were hastened or enhansed by prayer.

The Prayer tongue is enhansed by Faith and the desire to praise. If you praise long and hard , usually words will change to mere sounds as your mind gets out of the way of communication between your soul and your Father.

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

Mijoy,

I do know about the others, but when I was instructed at my first Life in the Spirit Seminar, I just opened my mouth and started to babble. (I did what I was told to do) It did not pour out of me; I kept repeating a couple of syllables. In a week it developed into a few more syllables and I kept repeating the same for fifteen years. When I finally realized what I was doing, I prayed to God to take it away. It persisted, especially during mass. I would just mumble silently the same thing over and over again.

This was a Catholic LISS? With authentic leadership connected to a Parish or other Catholic organization?

I have never had Tongues come up on me at an inappropriate moment. And I can stop my tongue when I choose, as can all who are involved in my conference, and any authentic Catholic Charismatic I have ever known. I have rarely seen Tongues come up at a Charismatic Mass (and only at Praise times when it did) and never at a traditional or NO Mass which Charismatics attended. What you experienced was definitely not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Whatever it was it is certainly better that it is gone.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

Dear SuZ,

It does not appear you understand the topic, much less what I am talking about. It would take too long for me to explain it to you, so if you permit, I would rather not respond to your advice. But I sincerely thank you for your good intent. God bless.

 

[Binary_Paul]

I think there is confusion about the exercise of the gift of tongues in it’s various forms or applications. Because there is immaturity in the charismatic community there is a lack of understanding and obedience to both the church and to the Holy Spirit. We must remember not to ‘throw out the baby with the bath water’.

The primary function of the Holy Spirit is to empower and sanctify the church community in its mission to make disciples of all people. I believe we must always keep this in the front of our minds when we participate in charismatic prayer groups or similar movements within the church. All to often I have seen these types of groups turn inward and self focused. This is in direct conflict with the request of both the Holy Father and of the prophecies received at national Catholic charismatic conferences.

What seems to happen is that people get focused on perpetuating the experience of the newness of the infilling of the Holy Spirit and neglect the mission and the sanctification that is supposed to happen with deeper conversion. You simply cannot live on the emotional high that accompanies this newness of the inner life in the Spirit. You must give the Holy Spirit total obedience. The Spirit of God does not like to indwell in an untidy or messy ‘house’. He therefore begins a ‘housecleaning’ that requires submission on the part of the person. You see, if a person does not grow in Holiness, then they are not as useful to the mission of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit would like.

I have the gift of tongues that has been manifested as a personal prayer language as well as in spiritual warfare. There have been a few occasions where, while praying over someone, we had to pray for deliverance because there was an evil spirit already in residence. (This IS NOT the best way to handle this type of issue; the exorcist of the diocese should handle exorcisms, but sometimes that is not much of an option.) Anyway, I was immediately moved by the Holy Spirit to pray in tongues and was surprised because the language was completely different from the normal prayer/praise language. I don’t have any real idea why this is so, but the results have been always good except in one circumstance. That person was unwilling to repent of certain sins, allowing the evil presence to persist in her life. Note: I have met and prayed with the chief exorcist of the local archdiocese and he has given me excellent advice and was O.K. with what had transpired. This is NOT something the average Catholic should get involved with. There is lots of prayer and fasting and discernment that should always take place before any confrontation. Let the proper church authorities handle the situation if possible.

continued…

 

[Binary_Paul]

I think the point I’m trying to make is that the charisms of the Holy Spirit are *supernatural *manifestations that require openness to the Holy Spirit, obedience to the church, and faith, for their proper employment in the body of Christ. I think the human person is fraught with misconceptions and preconceptions on how God aught to do things. We live in the natural world, which is our ‘reality’. Jesus challenges us to live in the supernatural. We are supposed to imitate Him in all aspects of His life.

Also keep in mind that there was a delay between the time when Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, “receive the Holy Spirit”, and Pentecost, where the Holy Spirit actually manifested himself supernaturally. I’m not saying that the disciples didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus prayed over them. I personally think that they were filled with the Holy Spirit when they responded to the prayer. In other words, we are invited to accept the Holy Spirit at confirmation and the Bishop prays those words “receive the Holy Spirit”. My question is; when does the person respond? Even with normal preparation for the Sacrament, there isn’t anything as far as official church practice that helps the conferee to respond to the invitation. In my mind, it is paramount to communicate the understanding of the surrender of your personal will to that of the Holy Spirits. I think this is a crucial point that is often overlooked in the church. I think each person needs to take the time to make a really thoughtful decision about their response to the Holy Spirit. This may entail a time of reflection and counseling by both the sponsor and the priest of each conferee. Of course there is the problem of the lack of experience and formation on the part of both the priest and the sponsor. I’m NOT taking a pot shot at our priests. This is a real problem that has been talked about by both priests and bishops, and other Church leaders.

I personally know several priests who have told me that their opening up to the Holy Spirit was the most important action that caused the greatest change in their life and ministry. I agree with that assessment in regards to my own life. It was like being blind and then being able to see. The Holy Father has said that it is only by the light of the Holy Spirit that scripture can be fully understood. Even our logical minds must be in submission to this. Above all, our relationship with the Holy Spirit, and the charisms that are manifested by His will, should produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit. If there is not evidence of this, then there is something wrong.

In Christ Jesus, Paul.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Paul, yes there is a lot of immaturity. But there is also faulty theology. Everything is twisted out and misinterpreted. All it is: subjective experiences.

“Tongues” is the supernatural ability to speak in a foreign language.
Prayer Language you say? Let us take a look!

Charismatic Purpose:

1. edifies individual,
2. If interpreted, edifies church.

This conflicts with original purpose of tongues: as a sign for unbelievers in Acts 2. and Corinthians 14:22.

Now let us look at other verses charismatics use to show tongues as a prayer language

1 Corinthians 14:2, “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit."

He speaks to God because no one else understands him. This is not an exhortation to speak in tongues in order to communicate to God. It is rather a rebuke for speaking publicly in a language that no one understands, for the context of 1 Corinthians 14 is public speaking. God, being multi-lingual, is the only one able to understand.

1 Corinthians 14:4, “(For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive.”

The one who speaks is not edifying anybody else in the church. This is not an encouragement to speak tongues privately to edify oneself. This is a rebuke for speaking in a language at a service no one is able to understand. Therefore, it does not edify anybody.

The Bible does not command us to edify ourselves. Self-edification is a negative thing (Romans 15:2-3; 1 Corinthians 10:23-24; 10:33; 13:5). Spiritual gifts are to serve others and are not for private benefits. (1 Corinthians 12:5-7). The whole 14th chapter is to rebuke to the self serving Corinthians.

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

Dear SuZ,

It does not appear you understand the topic, much less what I am talking about. It would take too long for me to explain it to you, so if you permit, I would rather not respond to your advice. But I sincerely thank you for your good intent. God bless.

I think it does not appear that YOU understand the topic or anything about the authentic Catholic Charismatic renewal, which is approved by Rome.

Do you honestly think that the Popes do not know about praying in Tongues?

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

1 Corinthians 14:14, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

1 Corinthians 14:14 is praying in a tongue. But Paul does not mean private prayer; he means public prayer, because it would contradict 1 Corinthians 14:15-17. Paul is constant with his earlier rebuke about speaking publicly in a language not readily understood by the whole congregation. Prayer in a tongue here is a negative so this cannot be taken as an encouragement. Others are not edified, because they do not understand (14:15-17).

**1 Corinthians 14:18-19, I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.“

, Paul here contrasts speaking “in the church” with speaking outside the church. In the next verses (4:20-25). In 14:19 Paul is teaching to use only words that will edify. Uninterpreted tongues do not edify.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, {it should be} by two or at the most three, and {each} in turn, and let one interpret; but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God."

1 Corinthians 14:28 is NOT an encouragement to speak in tongues to ourselves or to God. Paul is still teaching the assembly at Corinth. If no interpreter is available, remain silent: “let him speak to himself and to God” is an order to stay silent and not speak out loud. An uninterpreted tongue is not a fruitful thing for the mind (14:14).

**Romans 8:26, “**In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings”

The supernatural ability to speak in a foreign language is different from “inexpressible groaning” that does not involve words. In Greek the word means an unspoken sighing.

Please reconsider the subjective experience “tongues” bring: While emotional relationship with God is important, experience is not relationship. We have to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

 

[Mysty101]

(This IS NOT the best way to handle this type of issue; the exorcist of the diocese should handle exorcisms, but sometimes that is not much of an option.)

You said you spoke with the exorsist after the fact, but by whose authority did you do this? Was a Priest even present?
From the USCCB

Possession and Exorcism
The celebration of the Liturgy of Exorcism is regulated solely by the bishop of a diocese, who may appoint a priest-exorcist, a man of piety, knowledge, prudence and holiness of life.

Situations such as these are so detrimental to the Charismatic movement. If you did act imprudently in the face of evil, it should never be discussed on a public forum.

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

Tru,
Do you have any documentation for your interpretation of scripture? What are your credentials?
SuZ