Top 10 reasons women should dress modestly

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Sorry but a man should, well, man up and take control of his senses. Back in high school, would you have suggested I wear A-crowd clothes as not to incite bullies to pick on me or wouldn’t it be better to tell those bullies to lay off and respect me regardless of what I look like on the outside?

The same applies to women and the religious folks who think they dress “immodestly”.
I completely understand your position, but I disagree. Here’s why:

Men should, as you say, “man up” and not blame inappropriately dressed women for when they fall into a sexual sin. But that said, women dressing immodestly makes it easier for a man to fall into lust. I speak this from personal experience.

One of the priests on EWTN had a sermon several weeks ago on the subject of modesty. Here’s a link: youtube.com/watch?v=PZHECJJbzPM&feature=player_embedded

In addition, people dressing fragrantly immodestly (both women and men) shows that they may have a problem with themselves. They may feel inadequate and so they need to show off to feel better about themselves. It harkens back to the old expression in Ecclesiastes: “vanity of vanities, all is vanity.” Physical pleasures can satisfy for a time, but in the end trust has to be placed in the Lord or people will go into a vicious cycle, indulging in the physical things (sex, food, money, etc) while never being totally satisfied. Turning to physical pleasures only causes people to turn in on themselves. Ask anyone on this board who has struggled with an addiction to masturbation.

Look at the news about Congressman Anthony Wiener. He’s a tiny man, but showing his private parts and his chest to women probably made him feel better and more important.

The solution? Well, I don’t think all women should dress like they’re Muslims or 70 years old. But women should defiantly cover up the things that need to be covered up (the upper legs, cleavage, etc). Much focus is placed on the right of a woman to dress however she wants, but I, as a man, have a right to not have some strangers privates pushed into my face. And again, men need to dress more modestly too! If you think its not bad for straight men, you cannot deny that our brothers who are trying to fight their same sex attraction are suffering even more. They’re constantly having to remember how different they are every time they see some shirtless guy on the street.

All in all, We all need to dress more modestly, and we all need to try to avoid lust and other sexual sins!

I’m sorry my argument is all over the place, but I think you get what I’m trying to say.
 
One thing we’ve let happen with discussion is to let it get into a woman-man thing.

What about the effects that a woman who dresses inordinately (to her peers) sexily. How does this make other women feel, especially around her husband? What if she is less well endowed? And there are other dynamics to consider too.

The main point I’d like to mention for the eleventy-seventh time is that responsibility for a refined environment rests with all of us.
 
One thing we’ve let happen with discussion is to let it get into a woman-man thing.

What about the effects that a woman who dresses inordinately (to her peers) sexily. How does this make other women feel, especially around her husband? What if she is less well endowed? And there are other dynamics to consider too.

The main point I’d like to mention for the eleventy-seventh time is that responsibility for a refined environment rests with all of us.
I completely agree. And men, although we don’t like to talk about it, also have some of the same vain jealousies that women do that you described above, especially in our highly sexualized culture.
 
I completely understand your position, but I disagree. Here’s why:

Men should, as you say, “man up” and not blame inappropriately dressed women for when they fall into a sexual sin. But that said, women dressing immodestly makes it easier for a man to fall into lust.
I’ve dealt with this line of reasoning which is why I gave an example of bullies and nerds. From my own personal experience, I have been bullied because of what I wore. Everyone thought I was a loser because I wore glasses and lugged around a fat back pack.

Tell me, is that my fault? Would you have told me to dress in clothes I didn’t want to wear just so I could appease the jocks/socialites who never tired of harassing me?

The problem is it doesn’t matter if you cover up or not. You are still giving in to the shallow perception that appearances have some big-time value.

Look, I’m not a saint. I’ve fallen a huge number of times as much as any guy. However, I don’t blame the fashions of society. I blame myself for my lack of control. I keep fighting. I deal with it on my own as I’m supposed to. This is not a fight you should have to make others help you with.

See the whole thing that is wrong about asking other people to dress in conformity to your own weaknesses is that it is easier to tell them instead of facing yourself. Doesn’t that bother you?
In addition, people dressing fragrantly immodestly (both women and men) shows that they may have a problem with themselves. They may feel inadequate and so they need to show off to feel better about themselves.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to feel good about yourself. You are made in the image and likeness of God. You are a unique individual. That is something to at least smile about. There is quite a long way between that and being an egomaniac. You cannot say that just because a girl is walking down the street in mini-skirt/sleeveless/shorts/tank top, you can claim that she’s showing off.

That’s just like the communist sympathizer seeing me playing my PSP and calling me a greedy heir of snobby capitalism.

That’s the problem when people depend so much on what their eyes tell them.
That’s the problem with the Party of Modesty.

It’s the same problem as the Party of Sex.
The solution? Well, I don’t think all women should dress like they’re Muslims or 70 years old. But women should defiantly cover up the things that need to be covered up (the upper legs, cleavage, etc). Much focus is placed on the right of a woman to dress however she wants, but I, as a man, have a right to not have some strangers privates pushed into my face. And again, men need to dress more modestly too! If you think its not bad for straight men, you cannot deny that our brothers who are trying to fight their same sex attraction are suffering even more. They’re constantly having to remember how different they are every time they see some shirtless guy on the street.
You are denying the reality that you may be very well alone in your struggle. (For homosexual men, they’re even more alone.) See the fickle thing about appearances is that what is considered attractive in one generation may not be so much anymore in another. In fact, you need not to wait for time to pass by. Differences in what is attractive vary across cultures as well.

You might go on a crusade telling people to cover this or that, emphasizing this as sexual etc. But in the end, you’re just going to be like the guy holding up a shield and the monster is just hacking away at it while every other warrior has killed theirs. You might as well get rid of the shield and drive in your sword because that beast will not stop. Nobody can help you but yourself.
 
You still misunderstand Catholic moral theology. Solidarity is a far cry from collectivism. But stay in the dark.

edwardfeser.com/unpublishedpapers/socialjustice.html
You’re the one in the dark if you’re so naive enough to misconstrue the Catholic concept of solidarity into your collectivist caricature.
Furthermore, as I’ve remarked here before, the focus of social policy and social action, according to the teaching of the Church, is, or at least ought to be, the integral development of the person – the fullest possible flourishing of each individual in respect to all the fundamental goods that go together to make up his or her personhood. (This point is made by Pope Benedict XVI.) In the nature of things, integral development is something that happens, or fails to happen, in individuals rather than in collective entities as such.
Obviously, however, individual and community can’t be separated or set in opposition as a matter of principle. A fundamentally unjust community or one lacking in basic human and material resources will be unable to serve the integral development of each of its members. But that’s the point:** In the final analysis, it’s the individual members, not precisely the community as such, that take priority.**
Source
 
You’re the one in the dark if you’re so naive enough to misconstrue the Catholic concept of solidarity into your collectivist caricature.
So, you witness an accident. You have no responsibility to help. So you don’t, because that’d be assuming responsibility, and that’d be collectivism?

You cut no one slack because that’d be assuming some responsibility that you believe is entirely someone else’s…and that’d be…collectivism.

In fact, in your little non-Catholic morality, you run quickly into a problem that there’s no real charity, no mercy.

If you study the problem deeply that’s what your little non-Catholic moral theology devolves into.
 
You’re the one in the dark if you’re so naive enough to misconstrue the Catholic concept of solidarity into your collectivist caricature.

Source
You either didn’t actually read the full article or you severely misunderstood it…and you misunderstand my points. Nothing I’ve said across these postings calls for the state collective. Nothing.

You can’t seem to entertain two individuals, each with responsibility SEPARATE from a collective state. This is your error. And no one can fix you.

From the source you gave us:
"No doubt it’s possible to lift proof texts from papal encyclicals in support of this claim – and also in support of its contrary. In one place the emphasis is on the individual, in another on community. But proof texts aside, and taking a reasonable view of the matter, it’s clear that the individual does, necessarily, enjoy a certain priority. Communities and their institutions, including government, exist for the sake of individuals, not the other way around. Totalitarian systems are based on the belief that the individual exists for the state – which is why, at bottom, totalitarianism is horribly wrong.
Furthermore, as I’ve remarked here before, the focus of social policy and social action, according to the teaching of the Church, is, or at least ought to be, the integral development of the person – the fullest possible flourishing of each individual in respect to all the fundamental goods that go together to make up his or her personhood. (This point is made by Pope Benedict XVI.) In the nature of things, integral development is something that happens, or fails to happen, in individuals rather than in collective entities as such.
Obviously, however, individual and community can’t be separated or set in opposition as a matter of principle. A fundamentally unjust community or one lacking in basic human and material resources will be unable to serve the integral development of each of its members. But that’s the point: In the final analysis, it’s the individual members, not precisely the community as such, that take priority.
Excesses in either direction are possible. The perception of overreaching by Obama and the Democrats in the name of supposed common interests – as, for example, in the case of health-care reform – undoubtedly provoked a reaction that’s lately been visible on the American political scene. Now, too, this reaction sometimes expresses itself in the confusion of libertarian individualism with authentic liberty. Banal as it may sound, the best approach is a golden mean between individual and community – and finding and embracing it is a fundamental raison d’être of a healthy political order.
But just here, in what appears to be systemic inability to agree on and work for fundamental political goals, is what makes the present polarization of American political life so threatening. Several years ago, the liberal sociologist Alan Wolfe called a book about America One Nation, After All. At the moment, and especially in the wake of the midterm elections, that sounds more like wishful thinking than sober analysis. And it’s what Clifford Longley should be worrying about.
 
So, you witness an accident. You have no responsibility to help. So you don’t, because that’d be assuming responsibility, and that’d be collectivism?

You cut no one slack because that’d be assuming some responsibility that you believe is entirely someone else’s…and that’d be…collectivism.

In fact, in your little non-Catholic morality, you run quickly into a problem that there’s no real charity, no mercy.

If you study the problem deeply that’s what your little non-Catholic moral theology devolves into.
Here we go with your misconstruing again plus you’re now comparing apples and oranges.

Tell me, where in your little desperate example can I find an equivalent between a man lusting after a woman?

Answer: There isn’t.

When a person lusts after another human being, that is not an accident. That is a weakness in their character. When you see a man being robbed, you do not let the robber get away and blame the man for looking like someone to rob.

You shoot the robber. You call the cops. You make sure the bad guy is caught.

Now that is charity.

I don’t want to be told to “study deeply” by someone who can’t even read my posts right.

You speak of charity yet love to label my sense of morality as ‘non-Catholic’.
A self-admitted hypocrite through and through.
 
You either didn’t actually read the full article or you severely misunderstood it…and you misunderstand my points. Nothing I’ve said across these postings calls for the state collective. Nothing.

You can’t seem to entertain two individuals, each with responsibility SEPARATE from a collective state. This is your error. And no one can fix you.

From the source you gave us:
Just because our discussion isn’t about politics does not mean the logic behind what I quoted does not apply. Besides, you’re one to talk throwing me that link to a speech from a lecture without so much as quoting what you wanted to bring to the attention of this discussion.

Besides, this isn’t about politics or economics. It’s simply about you putting a community first before individuals. That is evident in post #146. That has long been evident in your continued defense of human shallowness.
 
I’ve dealt with this line of reasoning which is why I gave an example of bullies and nerds. From my own personal experience, I have been bullied because of what I wore. Everyone thought I was a loser because I wore glasses and lugged around a fat back pack.

Tell me, is that my fault? Would you have told me to dress in clothes I didn’t want to wear just so I could appease the jocks/socialites who never tired of harassing me?

The problem is it doesn’t matter if you cover up or not. You are still giving in to the shallow perception that appearances have some big-time value.

Look, I’m not a saint. I’ve fallen a huge number of times as much as any guy. However, I don’t blame the fashions of society. I blame myself for my lack of control. I keep fighting. I deal with it on my own as I’m supposed to. This is not a fight you should have to make others help you with.

See the whole thing that is wrong about asking other people to dress in conformity to your own weaknesses is that it is easier to tell them instead of facing yourself. Doesn’t that bother you?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to feel good about yourself. You are made in the image and likeness of God. You are a unique individual. That is something to at least smile about. There is quite a long way between that and being an egomaniac. You cannot say that just because a girl is walking down the street in mini-skirt/sleeveless/shorts/tank top, you can claim that she’s showing off.

That’s just like the communist sympathizer seeing me playing my PSP and calling me a greedy heir of snobby capitalism.

That’s the problem when people depend so much on what their eyes tell them.
That’s the problem with the Party of Modesty.

It’s the same problem as the Party of Sex.

You are denying the reality that you may be very well alone in your struggle. (For homosexual men, they’re even more alone.) See the fickle thing about appearances is that what is considered attractive in one generation may not be so much anymore in another. In fact, you need not to wait for time to pass by. Differences in what is attractive vary across cultures as well.

You might go on a crusade telling people to cover this or that, emphasizing this as sexual etc. But in the end, you’re just going to be like the guy holding up a shield and the monster is just hacking away at it while every other warrior has killed theirs. You might as well get rid of the shield and drive in your sword because that beast will not stop. Nobody can help you but yourself.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with wanting to feel good about yourself. But people who don’t have good self esteem and who wear revealing clothes, or do revealing things like Congressman Wiener, are doing it out of the mistaken idea that it would be a permanent solution. But it is not, and only leads to more vanity and self destruction. This is but one possible reason why people dress inappropriately. I’m not applying this to every situation, because I can’t presume to know everyone’s motives.

Secondly, judging somebody by appearances in some ways is not bad. I understand that you can’t know a person by the way they dress, but you can make some appropriate judgements about people due to that factor (example, “He’s dressed in a police officer uniform, so he’s probably a cop.”). Thus, I can make the appropriate judgement that a girl who is dressed in a strapless tank top, with her midriff showing, and 2’’ short shorts is probably more permissive than someone dressed in a longer dress.

Think of it in terms of a job interview. If woman A is dressed in business attire and woman B is dressed in the fashion I just described, my first impression would be that woman A is more professional. That might not be true, but I think there’s a pretty good likelihood that it is. There are exceptions.

Thirdly, I agree 100% that men should take complete responsibility for their failings with lustful thoughts. But, people who wear risque clothing need to take a responsibility too. They need to be more charitable towards their neighbors (and yes, many are probably ignorant of the fact that their dress has an effect on others).
 
First of all, there is nothing wrong with wanting to feel good about yourself. But people who don’t have good self esteem and who wear revealing clothes, or do revealing things like Congressman Wiener, are doing it out of the mistaken idea that it would be a permanent solution. But it is not, and only leads to more vanity and self destruction. This is but one possible reason why people dress inappropriately. I’m not applying this to every situation, because I can’t presume to know everyone’s motives.

Secondly, judging somebody by appearances in some ways is not bad. I understand that you can’t know a person by the way they dress, but you can make some appropriate judgements about people due to that factor (example, “He’s dressed in a police officer uniform, so he’s probably a cop.”). Thus, I can make the appropriate judgement that a girl who is dressed in a strapless tank top, with her midriff showing, and 2’’ short shorts is probably more permissive than someone dressed in a longer dress.

Think of it in terms of a job interview. If woman A is dressed in business attire and woman B is dressed in the fashion I just described, my first impression would be that woman A is more professional. That might not be true, but I think there’s a pretty good likelihood that it is. There are exceptions.

Thirdly, I agree 100% that men should take complete responsibility for their failings with lustful thoughts. But, people who wear risque clothing need to take a responsibility too. They need to be more charitable towards their neighbors (and yes, many are probably ignorant of the fact that their dress has an effect on others).
Dear Paxvobis,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. A warm welcome to CAF. May I say that I appreciate your contributions to the debate thus far and agree wholeheartedly with your remarks.

You are quite correct, dear friend, appearances are indeed very telling and are usually a good index as to a man’s true character. Thus ostentation and being clad in seductive style clothing hardly point to a mind that is fixed upon heavenly things (cf. Colossians 3: 2), because Christian women who profess religion are to dress modestly, with decency and propriety (I Tim. 2: 9). The passage in I Timothy settles that matter beyond question. Of course, outward modesty, which makes itself known in choice of attire, should be accompanied by inward purity and chastity, since the former would otherwise be of no account. Moreover, the principle here set forth by St. Paul admits of universal application and is not culturally bound, even though the practical application of the principle will always be expressed in a manner that is deemed appropraite to the cultural and social climate of the time. For example, an African or Indian woman can still be modestly attired without necessarily adopting a distinctive Western style of dress. However, this is does not give men carte blanche permission to don any clothing that they wish, regardless of how seductive and unseemly it may be, for that would be to utterly negate the principle enunciated by St. Paul.

Whilst I would freely admit that times and cultures do change, one must add, and not always for the better. Sometimes the nature of these changes are so seismic and profound, they even have an impact upon Holy Mother church itself. We need to bear in mind that our Church has only been pomised the charism of infallibilty with respect to its Divine teaching of faith and morals; it has received no promise to protect it from being inflitrated by the world or from a ‘Laodicean’ lukewarmness as regards sanctity and separation from the godless world.

Many of today’s social problems were undeniably caused by the revolution in morals (which, incidently, happened to coincide with Vatican II) that shook that decade of decadence, the Sixties. The so called social reforms of the decade, legalising abortion and homosexual vice, liberalising divorce, enabling the distribution of contraceptives etc., were said by some misguided men (e.g Roy Jenkins, here in the UK) to embody a ‘civilised society’. It was from this cesspit of iniquity that seductive garments like the mini-skirt emerged and which, at length, helped lower the morals of a whole generation of both men and women. We should be under no illusions, the sixties were a decade of liberation, full stop. Alleged intolerance and religious bigotry were triumphantly consigned to the dustbin of history. Those men who warned that freedom was being confused with anti-social licence were dismissed as hidebound reactionaries. However, one need only look at the vulgarity and numerous social ills that now beset our Western world, to know who was right. The fact that we now witness neo-Catholic orthodoxy defending to the death such tarty garments as mini-skirts and bikini’s, simply shows the extent to which the spirit of the age with its godless mindset has penetrated our beloved Church. Beloved, we ought to be very concerned as regards our present plight.

Apologies for deviating slightly from the topic under review, but the moral revolution of the sixties and immodest vesture are more connected than one might at first imagine.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 

He is putting clothing in context. A swimsuit – is fine for the pool and/or beach–but we don’t use it for general everyday wear-- like going to the grocery store.
Dear Walking_Home,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

In ‘Love and Responsibility’ JPII spoke of “a bathing costume at a bathing place”. It is to be obsserved that he specifically did not make any mention of a bikini, which is perfectly understandable since it is a seductive style garment which has its origins with the anti-Christian Women’s Liberation movement. A fact that the late Holy Father would have been undoubtedly aware of, I am quite sure.

Without controversy, there are bathing costumes that are expressive of modesty and which by no means shamefully trespass the boundaries of propriety.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Our Lady’s words at Fatima, “Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son,” certainly represent no innovation in the teachings of her Divine Son, Who said Himself, “Anyone who so much as looks with lust at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt. 5:28) All throughout the centuries the true followers of Christ have recognized the critical need, not only of penance and self-denial, in order to preserve chastity of mind and body, but also of avoiding all occasions of sin, especially immodest fashions on the part of women, who through their vanity become horrible occasions of sin for men, just as Our Lord warned. Indeed, if woman’s vanity has been a prolific source of temptation down throughout the centuries, what is to be said of our own age, in which the styles and fashions are deliberately calculated to lead men into sin. Let us be reminded of the unchanging doctrine of the Church in this regard, and diligently avoid, without fear of human respect, that terrible immodesty in dress which is the cause of so many sins and offenses against the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, and the Sacred Heart of Her Divine Son! Considering this tragic reality, reflect carefully upon this warning to women by a great and holy Doctor of the Church:

“You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment, and much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me, whom does this world condemn? Whom do judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death-dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body; you murder not the body, but the soul. And it is not to enemies that you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride.”

–St. John Chrysostom (d. 407A.D.)
 
Yeah, we’ve been getting tired of you over quoting that too. We agree on something substantial.
Dear Edward,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Perhaps I can be of some help here, old chap.

The passage in I Samuel 16: 7 is completely irrelevant to the topic currently under review and to call it into service to justify immodest and indecent attire is a fundamentalist style of biblical exegesis. It is a prime example of taking a text out of context and then turning it into a pretext for polemical purposes. Have never seen or heard of this text being utilised and misused to rationalize the wearing of seductive and inappropriate clothing, save on these boards, and then only by one poster.

The whole context is Samuel being appointed and commisioned to anoint David, one of the sons of Jesse at Bethlehem. It is manifestly obvious that the contrast here is between the physical features (“appearance or on the height of his (i.e. Eliab’s) stature” v. 6) and a man’s heart, with which God is primarily concerned. Actually, it was rather strange that Samuel, who had been so terribly disappointed in Saul, whose stature and countenance recommended him as much as any man’s could, should be so forward to judge a man by that superficial rule. Thus one can clearly see that what is in view here is making a shallow evaluation about a man soley on the basis of his imposing physical body, rather than the good disposition of the heart and the holiness or goodness of that, which recommends us to God. It is this, and this alone, that is in His sight of great price (cf. I Pet. 3: 4). This does indeed have practical application with respect to our assessment of others, but it cannot be used as a peg on which to hang some theory about immodest clothing being acceptable because the Lord looks upon the heart. For that is a gross misintepretation of a text, if ever there was. In any case such an erroneous elucidation of the text is even at variance with that Pauline passage in I Timothy 2: 9, which, as we have seen, prohibits the doning of unseemly and seductive aparrel beyond dispute. Therefore, unless the bible contradicts itself, which it clearly does not, then that interpretation is plainly wrong.

Whatever side of the debate we fall, let not use, or rather misuse, this lovely text just to uphold some theory, for that is surely to clutch at straws and so diminish our credibility, if not our honesty.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
I’m not applying this to every situation, because I can’t presume to know everyone’s motives.
That should be enough reason to tell you not to equate clothes you deem “immodest” as some sort of sign of low self-esteem.
Secondly, judging somebody by appearances in some ways is not bad. I understand that you can’t know a person by the way they dress, but you can make some appropriate judgements about people due to that factor (example, “He’s dressed in a police officer uniform, so he’s probably a cop.”).
Sorry but you’re sadly overrating appearances again and no, it is not a good thing. Again, read 1 Samuel 16:7.

Information such as profession are morally neutral pieces of info. That is not enough for you to say what kind of person they are. A nurse’s uniform may indicate that a person’s a nurse but is there anything else? What can you gain outside the assumption that the uniform indicates a person is a nurse? Will the uniform tell you what kind of nurse he/she is? You can’t do that. (Unless you’re CSI or something.)

See you’re comparing apples to oranges. Just because you can gain a bit info from an attire does not mean it is glorious validation of judging people by appearances. I said so before that you can never discern the wholeness of a person just because of what they wear.
Think of it in terms of a job interview. If woman A is dressed in business attire and woman B is dressed in the fashion I just described, my first impression would be that woman A is more professional. That might not be true, but I think there’s a pretty good likelihood that it is. There are exceptions.
Actually that is only due with respect to the formality of the context and there are even companies that aren’t so strict anymore. Also, you wouldn’t go in a suit just to apply for a janitor’s job would you?
Thirdly, I agree 100% that men should take complete responsibility for their failings with lustful thoughts. But, people who wear risque clothing need to take a responsibility too. They need to be more charitable towards their neighbors (and yes, many are probably ignorant of the fact that their dress has an effect on others).
Again, the greater charity would be to tell people to stop being such perverts. As Christians, we are called to judge wisely but judging wisely always demands to put a lot less faith in physical appearances.

To give in to the weaknesses of shallow people is not charity. It’s sparing the rod and spoiling the child.
 
The whole context is Samuel being appointed and commisioned to anoint David, one of the sons of Jesse at Bethlehem. It is manifestly obvious that the contrast here is between the physical features (“appearance or on the height of his (i.e. Eliab’s) stature” v. 6) and a man’s heart, with which God is primarily concerned.
There’s no difference between judging a person’s physical features and their clothing. They are both still earthly appearances. They are both seen by the eye and they are both wholly misconstrued in the mind in the same way by man’s shallow tendencies.

Rather ironic that you’ve put me on your Ignore List yet still have the gall to be another person to misrepresent my position.
 
Our Lady’s words at Fatima, “Certain styles and fashions are being introduced which gravely offend My Divine Son,” certainly represent no innovation in the teachings of her Divine Son, Who said Himself, “Anyone who so much as looks with lust at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt. 5:28) All throughout the centuries the true followers of Christ have recognized the critical need, not only of penance and self-denial, in order to preserve chastity of mind and body, but also of avoiding all occasions of sin, especially immodest fashions on the part of women, who through their vanity become horrible occasions of sin for men, just as Our Lord warned. Indeed, if woman’s vanity has been a prolific source of temptation down throughout the centuries, what is to be said of our own age, in which the styles and fashions are deliberately calculated to lead men into sin. Let us be reminded of the unchanging doctrine of the Church in this regard, and diligently avoid, without fear of human respect, that terrible immodesty in dress which is the cause of so many sins and offenses against the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, and the Sacred Heart of Her Divine Son! Considering this tragic reality, reflect carefully upon this warning to women by a great and holy Doctor of the Church:

“You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment, and much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me, whom does this world condemn? Whom do judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death-dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body; you murder not the body, but the soul. And it is not to enemies that you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride.”

–St. John Chrysostom (d. 407A.D.)
Dear Catholic 41506,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. May I warmly welcome you to CAF, dear friend. Thankyou for that splendid and insightful contribution above, let us hope that it will be read and inwardly digested by all.

The way in which Catholics think about this whole issue of immodest attire has certainly changed radically, and for the worst. Too many have assimilated the immoral and godless spirit of our times and have seeminly lost their moral sense. Here is what a pre-Vatican II manual of instruction states regarding modesty in dress:

“The virtue of modesty is the virtue which protects chasity by inclining us to guard our senses, so as not to invite temptation, and to be considerate in our dress and behaviour, so as not to cause temptation in others” (Christ in Us, Killgallon & Webber, sheed & Ward, 1958, p. 269).

Many modern neo-Catholic orthodox men will triumphantly rejoice that we have moved on from such prissy ‘Puritanism’, which wrongfully blames others for our own weaknesses and ‘demons’. Well to that absurd charge, Killagallon and Webber must plead guilty, as must so many others in the pre-Vatican II Church, if the neo-Catholics are to be believed. However, many of us are of the opinion that it is the neo-Catholic orthodox who are out of kilter with the whole spirit of traditional and biblical Catholicism (with its realistic awareness of the effects of the Fall and concupiscence), because they are imbued with the godless spirit of the age and have succumbed, perhaps even unwittingly, to the vagaries of relativism.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
The following responses are from a Christian fundamentalist forum. They respond to the same topic --same type of argument put forth by Edward H, Portrait, etc.

If these protestant men – —can see the error, the dishonesty --of shifting the blame for men’s ill thoughts —to a women’s manner of dress— what the heck is happening to our supposedly Catholic men.

These protestant men know — that the illness – is in men’s hearts-- and it is up to them with God’s help to transform themselves out of darkness.

What does this say about our supposedly Catholic men–who have access to the graces of the Sacraments–yet will not see/acknowledge — that the darkness is in their own hearts and need to raise themselves up–transform themselves. Seems to be Catholic men have become a sorry lot.
This is weak reasoning to excuse allowing our men to think like readers of Hustler and Playboy in the church. You know full well, if you’re honest, that your thoughts are much harder tocontain than you want people to think. You know full well, if you’re honest, that your thoughts can wander where they’re not supposed to even if a woman is dressed as modest as an Amish woman. IT’S NOT ALWAYS A MATTER OF DRESS, IT’S A MATTER OF WHAT’S INSIDE YOUR FILTHY, ROTTEN, DECEITFUL HEART. That’s why your mind and heart need to be transformed by God, and not trained by legalistic exercises.
You nailed it!
It’s a heart thing!
Too many IFB forget that! And I R 1
Lazy Christianity is expecting everyone around you to adjust so YOU won’t stumble. That way you don’t have to work on self.
Lets pretend for a moment that you can make every woman in your church dress just the way you want so you won’t think impure thoughts…what happens when you go out in public with women who aren’t Christians? It is all up to you so stop expecting other to accomodate your lack of mental standards.

 
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