"Traditional Catholicism is Winning" (The Wall Street Journal)

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see online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303772904577335290865863450.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
An aging generation of progressive theologians and priests are being replaced in the U.S. Church with younger men attracted to the Church for the timelessness of its teaching, this article comments. And in spite of calls a few years ago for the end of a male celibate priesthood, the numbers of priests are increasing over the world and, in the U.S., in dioceses led by courageous and faithful bishops,
 
mdgspencer said:
see online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303772904577335290865863450.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
An aging generation of progressive theologians and priests are being replaced in the U.S. Church with younger men attracted to the Church for the timelessness of its teaching, this article comments. And in spite of calls a few years ago for the end of a male celibate priesthood, the numbers of priests are increasing over the world and, in the U.S., in dioceses led by courageous and faithful bishops,
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Isn’t this awesome!! We have a few new, young priests in our dioceses and they are just so faithful to all the Church teaching! Alleluia, Thanks be to God!!
 
mdgspencer said:
see online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303772904577335290865863450.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
An aging generation of progressive theologians and priests are being replaced in the U.S. Church with younger men attracted to the Church for the timelessness of its teaching, this article comments. And in spite of calls a few years ago for the end of a male celibate priesthood, the numbers of priests are increasing over the world and, in the U.S., in dioceses led by courageous and faithful bishops,
Click to expand...
If we are creating a “traditional catholicism” versus the rest of catholicism and if we create the win-lose scenario, that indeed is a sad day for Catholicism. As an Aboriginal Catholic a traditional Catholicism would smother any reconciliation between Aboriginal spirituality and Catholicism thereby failing in the mission of Jesus to go forth in all parts of the world to spread his news. Traditional catholicism for the sake of being 'traditional" rather than Catholic is not only sad, it is also very dangerous to the spirit of Catholicsm.

Can we continue as a church without expanding our notion of eco-theology, are we to return to the days of denying the progress made by feminist catholic theologians, and the “fresh air” that was brought in due to Second Vatican Council are we to negate and limit the Holy Spirit in the name of a very narrow “traditional” catholicism?

I stand as a moderate, I embrace the changes we have been blessed with since Vatican II and I think that it is a step backwards to differentiate segments of "styles’ within our global community where one form “is winning”…sad…

Trickster
Bruce
 
I suppose to apply Occam’s razor to the question it would be this - 'can one be ‘Moderate’ with ‘Truth?( i.e. Traditional Catholicism of God Centered, Scripturally cohesive and Church approved Truth.)’ Methinks Truth is just that- truth. It is as concrete a concept as Newtonian mathematics. Is not ‘tolerance’ and ‘Moderation’ and ‘Liberalism’ in regard to objective, Spirit delineated truth via the Scriptures and the Church-- just deceptive words for …well…compromise? Will Compromise ever serve truth well? Methinks not.

Absolute truth is timeless. It is true today and true a 1,000 years ago and true 1,000 years from now.

You have heard. Now go forth and teach! 😉
 
Nimzovik said:
I suppose to apply Occam’s razor to the question it would be this - 'can one be ‘Moderate’ with ‘Truth?’ Methinks Truth is just that- truth. It is as concrete a concept as Newtonian matematics. Is not ‘tolerance’ and ‘Moderation’ and ‘Liberalism’ in regard to objective, Spirit delineated truth via the Scriptures and the Church-- just deceptive words for …well…compromise? Will Compromise ever serve truth well? Methinks not.
Absolute truth is timeless. It is true today and true a 1,000years ago and true 1,000 years from now.

Now go forth and teach!
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I won’t ask “who’s truth” but I will ask you “who’s interpretation of truth” and “who’s interpretation of church teaching”…traditionalists are often too narrow in their interpretation and are in denial of commonalities with other world religions, indigenous spiritualities and even science…

Bruce
Trickster
 
Does traditional catholicism include pictures and statues of “white” European Jesus figures? That’s winning? Hmm…

Bruce
Trickster
 
trickster said:
I won’t ask “who’s truth” but I will ask you “who’s interpretation of truth” and “who’s interpretation of church teaching”…traditionalists are often too narrow in their interpretation and are in denial of commonalities with other world religions, indigenous spiritualities and even science…

Bruce
Trickster
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Of course you have a point that other religions sometimes have commonalities with Catholicism, but when we turn this into some venture of “find where so we can agree and be buddies!” then it starts to be harmful, as that almost always leads to a watering-down of Catholicism rather than ecumenism’s true goal of conversion.
trickster said:
Does traditional catholicism include pictures and statues of “white” European Jesus figures? That’s winning? Hmm…

Bruce
Trickster
Click to expand...
I’m not quite sure what to make of this… You do realize that a great many Europeans are quite dark, no? And what does this have to do with anything to begin with? I know you are sympathetic to the aboriginal Catholicism group, which is fine, but please do not try to be snarky about “‘white’ European Jesus figures.” I was not aware that traditional Catholicism was diametrically opposed to dark-skinned Jesus figures.
 
I am a little skeptical of media spin, especially when it involves reporting on the Catholic Church. When I read the reasons for the title’s conclusion, I think, “So what’s new?” There is not change. It is just basic orthodox Catholicism and the numbers are recovering a little bit in the United States after the scandals of the last decade. Much of the world has no had these problems.
 
pnewton said:
I am a little skeptical of media spin, especially when it involves reporting on the Catholic Church. **When I read the reasons for the title’s conclusion, I think, “So what’s new?” ** There is not change. It is just basic orthodox Catholicism and the numbers are recovering a little bit in the United States after the scandals of the last decade. Much of the world has no had these problems.
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This was published in the Wall Street Journal. In any mainstream newspaper, the headlines are provided by the newspaper editor, not the author of the article, and they do not necessarily convey what the article actually says! 😉
 
trickster said:
**If we are creating a “traditional catholicism” versus the rest of catholicism and if we create the win-lose scenario, that indeed is a sad day for Catholicism. As an Aboriginal Catholic a traditional Catholicism would smother any reconciliation between Aboriginal spirituality and Catholicism thereby failing in the mission of Jesus to go forth in all parts of the world to spread his news. Traditional catholicism for the sake of being 'traditional" rather than Catholic is not only sad, it is also very dangerous to the spirit of Catholicsm. **

Can we continue as a church without expanding our notion of eco-theology, are we to return to the days of denying the progress made by feminist catholic theologians, and the “fresh air” that was brought in due to Second Vatican Council are we to negate and limit the Holy Spirit in the name of a very narrow “traditional” catholicism?

I stand as a moderate, I embrace the changes we have been blessed with since Vatican II and I think that it is a step backwards to differentiate segments of "styles’ within our global community where one form “is winning”…sad…

Trickster
Bruce
Click to expand...
👍 I always enjoy reading your thoughts on aboriginal Catholicism!

Don’t worry. The article is from the Wall Street Journal, not a Catholic paper, and to them “Traditional Catholicism” is just orthodox Catholicism, in contrast with heterodox Catholicism. Also, the headline would have been by the journal, not the author of the article.

The article cites a quote from Cardinal George.
Cardinal Francis George, the longtime leader of the Chicago archdiocese, once gave a homily that startled the faithful by pronouncing liberal Catholicism “an exhausted project . . . parasitical on a substance that no longer exists.”
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What he actually said was…
We are at a turning point in the life of the church in this country.** Liberal Catholicism is an exhausted project.* Essentially a critique, even a necessary critique at one point in our history,*** it is now parasitical on a substance that no longer exists. It has shown itself unable to pass on the faith in its integrity and inadequate, therefore, in fostering the joyful self-surrender called for in Christian marriage, in consecrated life, in ordained priesthood. It no longer gives life.
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**The answer, however, is not to be found in a type of conservative Catholicism obsessed with particular practices and so sectarian in its outlook that it cannot serve as a sign of unity of all peoples in Christ.
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The answer is simply Catholicism, in all its fullness and depth, a faith able to distinguish itself from any cultures and yet able to engage and transform them all, a faith joyful in all the gifts Christ wants to give us and open to the whole world he died to save. The Catholic faith shapes a church with a lot of room for differences in pastoral approach, for discussion and debate, for initiatives as various as the peoples whom God loves. **But, more profoundly, the faith shapes a church which knows her Lord and knows her own identity, a church able to distinguish between what fits into the tradition that unites her to Christ and what is a false start or a distorting thesis, a church united here and now because she is always one with the church throughout the ages and with the saints in heaven.
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(all emphasis added).

Is that closer to your thoughts? 🙂
 
pnewton said:
I am a little skeptical of media spin, especially when it involves reporting on the Catholic Church. When I read the reasons for the title’s conclusion, I think, “So what’s new?” There is not change. It is just basic orthodox Catholicism and the numbers are recovering a little bit in the United States after the scandals of the last decade. Much of the world has no had these problems.
Click to expand...
I agree. The news media looks at a few of superficial aspects (priestly celibacy, male priesthood, no contraception) and decides that this “proves” the Church is going backwards.
 
My own thought is that if the Church becomes too resistant to change, more and more will leave it. 30 million Americans already are ex-Catholic. A few thousand parochial schools have closed, along with many churches. Mass attendance has gone down from 75% to 25%.
Code: 
The Church needs to look forward and not backward. I recall the shock when I originally read some of the Church Fathers. They were brilliant for their era - before decent telescopes and microscopes - but they didn't have a clue when it came to such major matters as the dimensions of the universe and the causes of disease.

 The Church needs to open her windows wider and not begin to shut out the warmth and light and fresh air that came in with John XXIII and Vatican II.
 
Roy5 said:
My own thought is that if the Church becomes too resistant to change, more and more will leave it. 30 million Americans already are ex-Catholic. A few thousand parochial schools have closed, along with many churches. Mass attendance has gone down from 75% to 25%.
Click to expand...
It’s interesting that while the Church was “resistant” to change (prior to 1970), the schools were full, the pews were full, the seminaries were full. When “change” happened, everything emptied out. Your statistics have happened in the time that has seen the most change in the Catholic church, not the other way around. Your assumption is that to stop people from leaving the Church, we must change more. The statistics do not support your assumption.
Code: 
The Church needs to look forward and not backward. I recall the shock when I originally read some of the Church Fathers. They were brilliant for their era - before decent telescopes and microscopes - but they didn't have a clue when it came to such major matters as the dimensions of the universe and the causes of disease.
Click to expand...
The Fathers weren’t teaching science, they were saving souls! Your evidence does not support your claim that we shouldn’t look to them for truth about saving our souls. They are the Church Fathers, after all. Catholicism always looks back – we are a Church of Tradition. The fullness of truth was given to the apostles and then passed on to us. We always look back. That’s part of Catholic identity.
Code: 
 The Church needs to open her windows wider and not begin to shut out the warmth and light and fresh air that came in with John XXIII and Vatican II.
Click to expand...
Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by opening windows wider? Explain your metaphor, please. And what warmth, light, and fresh air are you specifically referring to? You are quite vague.
  • PAX
 
trickster said:
If we are creating a “traditional catholicism” versus the rest of catholicism and if we create the win-lose scenario, that indeed is a sad day for Catholicism. As an Aboriginal Catholic a traditional Catholicism would smother any reconciliation between Aboriginal spirituality and Catholicism thereby failing in the mission of Jesus to go forth in all parts of the world to spread his news. Traditional catholicism for the sake of being 'traditional" rather than Catholic is not only sad, it is also very dangerous to the spirit of Catholicsm.

Can we continue as a church without expanding our notion of eco-theology, are we to return to the days of denying the progress made by feminist catholic theologians, and the “fresh air” that was brought in due to Second Vatican Council are we to negate and limit the Holy Spirit in the name of a very narrow “traditional” catholicism?

I stand as a moderate, I embrace the changes we have been blessed with since Vatican II and I think that it is a step backwards to differentiate segments of "styles’ within our global community where one form “is winning”…sad…

Trickster
Bruce
Click to expand...
May I ask what does Aboriginal Catholic refer to? As to “changes” after Vatican II, I have not seen any changes to the Catholic Deposit of Faith. (Did I miss something?) So as far as I am concerned, the Catholic Church is still the same Catholic Church. 😃
 
trickster said:
I won’t ask “who’s truth” but I will ask you “who’s interpretation of truth” and “who’s interpretation of church teaching”…traditionalists are often too narrow in their interpretation and are in denial of commonalities with other world religions, indigenous spiritualities and even science…

Bruce
Trickster
Click to expand...
Aw come on. How about the Catechism? Is that not truth? Does this not define who’s truth?

As far as for speaking of the word you employed ‘traditionalists’ methinks you must define this term with specifics - yes? Generalities are often dysfunctional in discussion.
 
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