Traditional Catholics and Fatima

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Are you serious that you believe communism has fallen in Russia? Have you read what Russia has been up to recently and what Putin (an “ex” KGB agent) has recently announced? Do you know that Russian bombers were flying over the Alaskan coast two weeks ago? Hit any search engine and you’ll get how bad it is. You need to read Anatoly Golitsyn’s “New Lies for Old”. He was and ex-KGB agent who accurately FORtold the phony collapse of the USSR.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1347260/posts

Choose any of these googled sites to see how pathetic the Russian abortion rate is:

google.com/search?hl=en&q=russian+abortion+rate

Or that Russia was the first country to legalize abortion:

“In 1920, by decree, Lenin made the USSR the first country in the world to legalize abortion.” from…
questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=HGHbgw3Z40vfKMt33rGhw9Jsd1Pk58pbK6sjpzPnGTmWzbRTP5LV!-1678442236?docId=5002479659

Recall Our Lady said,
“If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions against the Church.”

Americans can sit back and say, yeah, Russia is consecrated, because we do have relative peace. But I say that this is not the world peace Our Lady promised, especially for those who have NO voice in the womb. Russia has spread and continues to spread her error the death of innocent children. Wars are rampant all over the entire earth. Persecutions continue against the Church, it is illegal to be a Catholic in Russia and the Holy Father, who wanted to visit the country, was not allowed in. The Chinese Catholics are completely underground and are routinely martyred for being so. The list is endless.
Sorry, here is where the whole conspiracy theory gets a little too wacky for my taste. Right, communism didn’t fall in Russia. It is all a deliberate plan to deceive the world…etc. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe that reality is what it seems to be, namely that the communist government in Russia collapsed and no longer exists.

As an aside, the wars we have today are nothing like last century. There is no comparison. WWI and WWII killed more people than the combined wars of all of history. The loss of life was staggering.
 
Sorry, here is where the whole conspiracy theory gets a little too wacky for my taste. Right, communism didn’t fall in Russia. It is all a deliberate plan to deceive the world…etc. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe that reality is what it seems to be, namely that the communist government in Russia collapsed and no longer exists.

As an aside, the wars we have today are nothing like last century. There is no comparison. WWI and WWII killed more people than the combined wars of all of history. The loss of life was staggering.
wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27345

Religious persecution in Russia?
State agencies said to be conducting anti-Catholic campaign

Posted: April 23, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Toby Westerman
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
“Catholic priests in Russia are ‘persona non grata,’” and Russia’s domestic intelligence service, the FSB, has compiled a list of priests termed “undesirable,” according to an internationally respected news source.
“An authentic anti-Catholic campaign is being conducted not only by the Russian Orthodox Church and nationalist forces, but also by State agencies,” stated the Italian news daily La Stampa.
The president of the Conference of Catholic Bishops in the Russian Federation, Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz, issued a protest statement declaring “with grave concern” that “an organized campaign is being waged against the Catholic Church in Russia,” according to the independent Zenit news agency.

Russia has really been converted???
 
wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27345

Religious persecution in Russia?
State agencies said to be conducting anti-Catholic campaign

Posted: April 23, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Toby Westerman
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
“Catholic priests in Russia are ‘persona non grata,’” and Russia’s domestic intelligence service, the FSB, has compiled a list of priests termed “undesirable,” according to an internationally respected news source.
“An authentic anti-Catholic campaign is being conducted not only by the Russian Orthodox Church and nationalist forces, but also by State agencies,” stated the Italian news daily La Stampa.
The president of the Conference of Catholic Bishops in the Russian Federation, Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz, issued a protest statement declaring “with grave concern” that “an organized campaign is being waged against the Catholic Church in Russia,” according to the independent Zenit news agency.

Russia has really been converted???
I’m not saying that it’s some great place to live, but I am very impressed that Our Lord was able to end the most bloodthirsty and atheistic regime in the history of the world. I like to give him and Our Lady some credit. It was a pretty big accomplishment.

When would Russia be “converted” in your opinion?

Also, is there a difference between saying Russia is converted and “the people of Russia” have converted?
 
I don’t worry about it too much. I heed Fatima where I can–consecrating Russia, declaring it to have been done or not, etc. is not in my power. Penance, penance, penance! That’s what I can do.
 
I’m not saying that it’s some great place to live, but I am very impressed that Our Lord was able to end the most bloodthirsty and atheistic regime in the history of the world. I like to give him and Our Lady some credit. It was a pretty big accomplishment.

?
So you don’t call 60% of all pregnancies ending in abortion an atheistic bloodthirsty regime? The poor aborted babies of Russia would most likely disagree with you. When Russia quits killing potential Catholics that are created for God’s Greater Glory, and the world follows, that will give me a clue that a conversion has taken place. Lord have mercy that you cannot see that millions upon millions of souls are still being murdered in that God forsaken land. Just because there is no visible annhilation of entire countries, yes millions upon millions of babies robbed of life on this planet would have made countries and nations, doesn’t mean there is peace.
 
So you don’t call 60% of all pregnancies ending in abortion an atheistic bloodthirsty regime? The poor aborted babies of Russia would most likely disagree with you. When Russia quits killing potential Catholics that are created for God’s Greater Glory, and the world follows, that will give me a clue that a conversion has taken place. Lord have mercy that you cannot see that millions upon millions of souls are still being murdered in that God forsaken land. Just because there is no visible annhilation of entire countries, yes millions upon millions of babies robbed of life on this planet would have made countries and nations, doesn’t mean there is peace.
Yes. Abortion is very very evil and is the worst problem in our world today. But a regime that murders people as a matter of law is different than a regime that allows people to be murdered. For instance, it is fair to say that the US government is a more legitimate and “better” regime than Stalin’s Soviet Union or Hitler’s Third Reich. One allows evil and the other two intentionally perpetrate it.
 
Heresy?!? If you refuse to accept this from Zenit, then nothing will convince you.
Accept what exactly from Zenit? The article didn’t even address the question of the concecration! All we have is some Cardinal saying that the conversion spoken of of Our Lady did not mean conversion to the One True Church established by Christ. This in and of itself is ludicrous, absurd, and just plain “nutters”.

Further, you failed to answer the follow up questions I posed - what is the state of “Christianity” in Russia? What is the state of the schismatic Orthodox Church? And for that matter - what is the state of the One True Church - the Catholic Church - in Russia?

On topics where the “ecumenically” oriented folks get into hot water, they simply refuse to discuss any and all details. It’s sad, but demonstrates the weakness of your position.
You need only to read all the post of the last 2 or 3 weeks on Fatima threads. Some, when asked if they were accusing JP II & B XVI of lying answered with double talk. If you don’t see that then nothing I say or do would ever convince you.
Been here - haven’t seen a hole lot on Fatima in these threads. Perhaps you can cite an example of this.

Also, can you cite (again I ask for details from your position) of where exactly Pope John Paul II, Sister Lucy, and Pope Benedict XVI said that the concecration of Russia took place as Our Lady requested. Please provide here the exact quotes with sources.
Quote (from my earlier post) As for those who do not believe, I fear nothing short of Our Lady appearing to the whole world would be enough for convincing them that it has. (end quote) Good night, sweet dreams!
Heh - and perhaps even a little chastisement from God won’t convince you that something is amiss.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
I don’t worry about it too much. I heed Fatima where I can–consecrating Russia, declaring it to have been done or not, etc. is not in my power. Penance, penance, penance! That’s what I can do.
I agree with this Genisis - it’s pretty much all we can do. (Aside from folks petitioning the Holy See to do the concecration of Russia as they understand Our Lady requested - which is just lay folk expressing their concern - what’s the big deal with that? Why ridicule and demonize them?).

The thing that get’s my feathers ruffled is the personal attacks on folks who think the concecration still hasn’t been done. They are demonized in a sense, it seems, in order to shut them up.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
Yes. Abortion is very very evil and is the worst problem in our world today. But a regime that murders people as a matter of law is different than a regime that allows people to be murdered. For instance, it is fair to say that the US government is a more legitimate and “better” regime than Stalin’s Soviet Union or Hitler’s Third Reich. One allows evil and the other two intentionally perpetrate it.
I say Russia spread her evil error, “legal” abortion, and the US government followed that action legalizing abortion. This is exactly what Our Lady fortold would happen if Russia was not consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart. I am not sure the comparison you are trying to make between the US and those other regimes. Annhilating defenseless children is the same, no matter if it’s in Russia, China, or the USA. It’s genocide. plain and simple.

If you don’t see a link with what I posted, I just don’t know what to say.
 
I say Russia spread her evil error, “legal” abortion, and the US government followed that action legalizing abortion. This is exactly what Our Lady fortold would happen if Russia was not consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart. I am not sure the comparison you are trying to make between the US and those other regimes. Annhilating defenseless children is the same, no matter if it’s in Russia, China, or the USA. It’s genocide. plain and simple.

If you don’t see a link with what I posted, I just don’t know what to say.
So, you believe that the US government is no more legitimate than Stalin’s Soviet Union or Hitler’s Third Reich???
 
How presumptious of you to place your opinion above the soon-to-be St. John Paul II.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion.
I ditto that comment.
Judas stayed to betray from within.
GraceAngel.
 
I agree with this Genisis - it’s pretty much all we can do. (Aside from folks petitioning the Holy DustinsDad
Well there is one more thing…starting a thread like this and assisting people in checking out the facts and making an informed decision. Asking other people to pray for the Consecration can only assist Our Lady in allowing God’s will to be brought about as He wishes…and making it happen sooner!
 
So, you believe that the US government is no more legitimate than Stalin’s Soviet Union or Hitler’s Third Reich???
May I ask how the legitimacy of the US government compared to the other countries and regimes has anything to do with Russia not being consecrated?
 
How presumptious of you to place your opinion above the soon-to-be St. John Paul II.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion.
How presumptious of you to say that Caesar is placing himself above the Pope. This is a serious thread and doesn’t need your sanctimonious attitude
 
How presumptious of you to place your opinion above the soon-to-be St. John Paul II.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion.
How presumptious of you to say that Caesar is placing himself above the Pope. This is a serious thread and doesn’t need your sanctimonious attitude
Let’s keep personal remarks about fellow members off the public boards, please. Thank you for your cooperation.
 
i think there is a reason threads of this nature dissolve into argument and finger-points.

We have a heirarchy in the Church to protect us. Sister Lucia said the consecration was good, the Holy Father said it was good. is there a reason why we shouldn’t trust them, always second-guessing them?
Instead of worrying about it, why not do as Our Lady asked and spend time in prayer and making sacrifices?
 
From your link. Pope Pius XII also consecrated Russia but did not do it according to what Our Lady requested.

Our lady promised a period of peace. Has there been peace since 1984? Russia was to be converted to the One True Faith, the Catholic faith not just any christian religion.
…and when and where did Our Lady say that the peace and conversion would be in an instant?
 
i think there is a reason threads of this nature dissolve into argument and finger-points.

We have a heirarchy in the Church to protect us. Sister Lucia said the consecration was good, the Holy Father said it was good. is there a reason why we shouldn’t trust them, always second-guessing them?
Instead of worrying about it, why not do as Our Lady asked and spend time in prayer and making sacrifices?
Please provide proof in a the form of a Papal Document attesting that the Consecration of Russia was done SPECIFICALLY to Our Lady’s request.
 
Please provide proof in a the form of a Papal Document attesting that the Consecration of Russia was done SPECIFICALLY to Our Lady’s request.
Why bother? No matter what I find, you won’t agree with it. If some would bother to do a little research directly here on CAF or even EWTN, then it’ll be, “Oh this is wrong with it and that is wrong with it.” It’ll be be nitpick and flaw. And if I don’t list it, then those who disagree will think they have “won”.

I am so tired of this whole TC area. There doesn’t seem to be any dialogue, just “We’re right and you’re wrong”. I’m thinking of doing like JKirk and resigning. This doesn’t seem to be a place for Catholics any more, unless they are a certain type of Catholic who thinks it’s OK to outthink the pope on either side of the spectrum.
 
I thought I would post a section of an article written by Fr. Kramer several years ago.
The Secret was brought to me, I looked at it, and the first thing I said is, “This is not the Secret!” I was not alone in making that judgment. A seminary professor, who is a close friend of Pope John Paul II, and who also knows personally Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has the same impression — this is not the Third Secret.

It cannot be.

And so when he [The Seminary professor] went to the Vatican, he visited Cardinal Ratzinger, and he confronted him. He did not mince his words. He said, “This is impossible! This can- not possibly be the entire Third Secret!” And he insisted that Ratzinger answer him yes or no. “Is this the whole thing? Is this the whole thing, or isn’t it? It cannot be; now you tell me!” Ratzinger admitted "Truly, that was not all of it.

This professor is a priest that I know personally, and a number of people that I know, know this priest personally. He pressed on further for an answer [from Cardinal Ratzinger], he would not back off. And he demanded, “What is in the Secret? If that’s not all of it, well, what is there?” Ratzinger’s answer makes it clear. There’s no longer any mystery why they have kept it hidden for so many years. And why the Vatican officials, during the pontificate of Pope John XXIII, said in their press release that, “It may never be published,” it may not ever be released. Ratzinger said that in the Third Secret, Our Lady warns that there will be an evil council. And She warned against the changes: She warned against making changes in the liturgy; changes in the Mass. This is explicitly set forth in the Third Secret. "
Interestingly, this is what Pope Pius XII said about the Third Secret.

Pope Pius XII: “Suppose, dear friend, that Communism [one of “the errors of Russia” mentioned in the Message of Fatima] was only the most visible of the instruments of subversion to be used against the Church and the traditions of Divine Revelation … I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. … I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.”
 
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