Traditional Catholics and Fatima

  • Thread starter Thread starter DustinsDad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry, here is where the whole conspiracy theory gets a little too wacky for my taste. Right, communism didn’t fall in Russia. It is all a deliberate plan to deceive the world…etc. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe that reality is what it seems to be, namely that the communist government in Russia collapsed and no longer exists.

As an aside, the wars we have today are nothing like last century. There is no comparison. WWI and WWII killed more people than the combined wars of all of history. The loss of life was staggering.
The facts can’t be argued. Your basing the validity of the consecration on the fact the “communism has fallen.” it has fallen in name only. I could say that I’m not an occultist anymore, but if I still practice occultism, I’m still an occultist. You’re trying to make people who acknowledge the facts seem like lunatics. What do you say of the ex communists who say this is all a facade, part of the plan? Things like this happen all the time, why not in an anti-Catholic country? Denying the facts to support personal opinon is very naive. People refuse to believe because it’s either too inconvenient to believe or they’re afraid it’s true. I’m not saying this to dis on the Pope, but other popes have made the consecrations, and incorrectly. So did JPII, God rest his soul. Besides, I don’t recall him ever refuting those who claim it wasn’t done.
 
i think there is a reason threads of this nature dissolve into argument and finger-points.
Me too. You tell me your suspected reason and I’ll tell you mine 🙂
We have a heirarchy in the Church to protect us.

Indeed - but remember this doesn’t “cover” certain things - the protection of the Holy Spirit doesn’t make the human side of the Church impeccable and infallible in all things. A proper understanding of infallibility is in order here.
40.png
OutinChgoburbs:
Sister Lucia said the consecration was good, the Holy Father said it was good. is there a reason why we shouldn’t trust them, always second-guessing them?
Well, in this case - I think the facts speak for themselves - and it’s pretty logical to “second guess” the situation. The details themselves are what is causing the problem here - not a hidden agenda to discredit the Vatican hierarchy - that’s the last thing faithful catholics want to do.

In the given circumstance, for example, there are* too* many conflicting accounts of what Sr. Lucy’s opinion truly was - and the fact that she was pretty much hidden away from the public and bound to silence on this topic for much of her later years also makes it all look suspect.

As for the Holy Father (not sure which one you are talking about) - I’m not sure it’s been said explicitly (as in a direct quote from the Holy Father speaking, etc.), just sort of implied in certain documents. John Paul II, as an example - some of what he said after the supposed concecration of Russia (i.e. the “world”) indicates that he wasn’t so sure he “did it” either.
Instead of worrying about it, why not do as Our Lady asked and spend time in prayer and making sacrifices?
Given the enormity and the tragic consequences of what Our Lady revealed about the possible chastisement - I don’t think it would benefit us too much to ignore the warnings. And being concerned about it certainly doesn’t indicate we spend less time in prayer and making sacrifices - that’s our (the laity’s) part in Mary’s request for crying out loud!

Therefore, I think it’s the folks who *are *the more concerned about the concecration of Russia who are also spending the most time in prayer and making sacrifices. Why in the world would you want to make such a statement indicating the opposite? Doesn’t even make logical sense, and comes of sounding like a personal attack to discredit those with whom you disagree.

Peace in Christ,

DusitnsDad
 
For anyone not really familiar with the arguments of the “no concecration yet” folks, Chris Ferarra lays out all the details pretty well in this presentation…you can click it to watch in your browser, or right click and “save to computer”.

fatimaradio.org/images/content/category/lcwp/thumb-ca.jpg

Now, I expect some to instantly shoot the messanger and demonize Ferarra as being a heretic, schismatic, nutjob or what have you…so as not to have to refute his arguments or give them give it a second thought. Such happens.

But why not at least listen to the points and questions he raises and refute them. Show where he is wrong. For example, is he misusing quotes? Is he lying about certain things? Which things?

I’m not sure he’s right about everything - but he certainly raises some good points and poses interesting questions. I just wish someone would respond in depth to them other then simplyu discounting them without logical reason.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
I don’t usually get involved in these, er, debates, but I figured I’d add my 2 cents. I’m a traditional Catholic and I voted “didn’t happen yet.” As for the “conversion of Russia” issue, we certainly didn’t see any sort of conversion like that which took place in Mexico a la Juan Diego. And that didn’t take years and years as some on here have implied. Within a handful of months of the appearances of Our Lady there, people began converting to Catholicism, and within 6 years, approximately 8 MILLION people became Catholic and abandoned their bloodthirsty pagan practices. We haven’t seen anything like that in Russia. Not even a speck.
 
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the promise is peace for the WORLD, not just Russia. This is why I think that the Consecration hasn’t been done. How can there be peace in the world with abortion’s taking place in the hundreds of millions every year and virtually legal in almost every country.

This is why, with all due respect to the soon to be St. Pope John Paul II the great and Saint Sister Lucia, that it hasn’t been done because it wasn’t them that promised peace to the world but OUR LADY. This promise is beautiful but not hard to figure out. We will know. When Our Lord resurrected from the dead and appeared to the Apostles they KNEW he was alive, even if they didn’t know how he did it.
 
Those two consecrations happened in 1942 and 1952 and they wre not valid, so why do you think the one’s Pope John Paul were valid?
That argument doesnt work. If I am told to solve a math problem, and I attempt to twice BUT I do something wrong and fail that DOESNT mean you will make those same mistakes and fail when you try.
Our lady promised a period of peace. Has there been peace since 1984? Russia was to be converted to the One True Faith, the Catholic faith not just any christian religion.
It all depends on how you define "peace’ and “converted”.
Was the peace limited to a certain region? For how long was this peace promised? When you say “Russia will be converted” are you saying each and every Russian will embrace Catholicism?

I dont know if this is what you are saying, but the way many people talk it is as if there will be total world peace for 1000 years and after all 150 million Russians embrace Catholicism the rest of the world will follow shortly after. I just sounds like too much, and if anyone is misreading the promises it is people who make these gigantic claims.
 
It all depends on how you define "peace’ and “converted”.
Was the peace limited to a certain region? For how long was this peace promised? When you say “Russia will be converted” are you saying each and every Russian will embrace Catholicism?

I dont know if this is what you are saying, but the way many people talk it is as if there will be total world peace for 1000 years and after all 150 million Russians embrace Catholicism the rest of the world will follow shortly after. I just sounds like too much, and if anyone is misreading the promises it is people who make these gigantic claims.
It is interesting to consider what happened in Portugal when the Bishops consecrated it to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I think this gives us a slight glimpse of what will happen when Russia is consecrated.

I just did a quick search and found this article which discusses the effects of the consecration of Portugal:

fatima.org/essentials/facts/consecraport.asp
 
The thing that get’s my feathers ruffled is the personal attacks on folks who think the concecration still hasn’t been done. They are demonized in a sense, it seems, in order to shut them up.
You are correct they are demonized to an extent and that is uncalled for. But it is not a one way street here. Often those who scream the loudest that consecration never took place are the RadTrad type who put the blame on people like JP2…when that is just as uncalled for as people demonizing them.
 
Fatima.org is run by followers of so-called Father Gruner- who has been disciplined by the Vatican…Not that it matters to those who still want to run around looking for something that’s already happened…
 
Here are some recent events concerning Russia and Putin. These are just snippets. Feel free to click on the links to get the rest of the articles…

canada.com/ottawacitizen/…3-77d3f43c8638

‘The Arctic is Russian,’ expedition leader says of quest to plant flag at Earth’s most northerly point

MOSCOW - A Russian expedition sailed yesterday for the North Pole, where it plans to send a submarine crew to plant a flag on the seabed and symbolically claim the Arctic for the Kremlin.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anger as Russians try to claim North Pole
news.com.au/heraldsun/sto…42-663,00.html

RUSSIA has provoked an international outcry after announcing it will claim much of the Arctic Circle.

Moscow has dispatched a submarine under the North Pole that is expected to arrive on Sunday to plant a titanium flag on the seabed.

The mission is part of a race to assert rights over the area, which is rich in energy reserves.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Growing Ties between China and Russia

voanews.com/english/2007-08-08-voa45.cfm

Members of the six-nation Shanghai Cooperation Organization, or SCO, begin military exercises August 9. The nine-day drill, dubbed Peace Mission 2007, involves the military forces of China, four central Asian countries [Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan], and Russia, the host nation. The dominant SCO forces are those of Russia and China, which are also expanding their cultural and economic links. VOA Moscow Correspondent Peter Fedynsky reports annual trade has already reached $40 billion.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Russia tests powerful non-nuclear bomb, the “Dad of all bombs”

MOSCOW, Sept. 11 (Xinhua) – Russia has developed a new type of bomb, also known as fuel-air bomb, which was claimed as the most powerful non-nuclear bomb, a senior officer said in a TV interview on Tuesday.

“The results of tests of the aviation explosive device have shown that it is comparable with nuclear weapons in its efficiency and potential,” Alexander Rukshin, a deputy chief of the Russian armed forces staff, said on Channel One television.

By spraying a special burnable material, the bomb will make great shockwave and high temperature, which is more destructive than TNT, Rukshin said.

Russia has nicknamed the new bomb “Father of All Bombs,” saying it is four times powerful than the U.S. vacuum bomb, the “Mother of All Bombs,” Channel One said.

The Russian bomb carries less explosive material than the U.S. one and the temperature in the epicenter of the blast is twice as high. Besides, the Russian bomb’s burst area is 300 meters, broader than the U.S. ranger of 150 meters, Channel One said.

news.xinhuanet.com/english/20…nt_6706852.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Kremlin chief ‘sacked to pave way for Putin’

telegraph.co.uk/news/main…/wputin110.xml

It was, as has become customary in Vladimir Putin’s Russia, a supremely Soviet-style sacking.

A brief and uninformative item posted by the Interfax news agency yesterday morning tersely reported that Igor Ivanov, the secretary of the Kremlin’s potentially extremely powerful security council, had “resigned” a fortnight ago to pursue academic interests.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Putin Cements His Grip

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn…d=opinionsbox1

MOSCOW – With Vladimir Putin’s announcement this week that he would head the pro-Kremlin United Russia party in December’s parliamentary elections, Russia’s new power configuration began to take shape. Ultimately, it will mean the extension of Putin’s authority and a triumph of manipulative politics. But as they have demonstrated, the Russian people won’t mind.

The dynamic Putin has created, ensuring himself nearly absolute power, has one important flaw of his own making: Because his authority is much greater than what is spelled out formally in the constitution, and it his alone, there is no way for Putin to transfer his power after, as the constitution requires, he steps down when his second term ends. This is why Putin has to thoroughly control the transition – lest Russia itself becomes unmanageable.
 
Fatima.org is run by followers of so-called Father Gruner- who has been disciplined by the Vatican…Not that it matters to those who still want to run around looking for something that’s already happened…
Actually, there are no “followers” of Fr. Gruner, simply Catholics who don’t go along with the latest whim of the day and believe what is convenient to believe.
 
Fatima.org is run by followers of** so-called Father Gruner**- who has been disciplined by the Vatican…Not that it matters to those who still want to run around looking for something that’s already happened…
I don’t listen to Fr. Gruner, BUT that doesn’t mean you refer to a man who has Holy Orders as “So Called”. That is an insult to the dignity of the Priesthood.

Anyways, on topic now.

I don’t think the consecretion happened. I don’t think JPII lied, I think perhaps he was misled by corrupt curia officials surrounding him or he just sincerely beleived that Our Lady was really requesting a world wide consecretion and not just Russia.

As for the fall of Russia, its irrelevant if the Soviet Union fell, Russia is still just as atheistic, is rapidly moving towards a just as militaristic and totalitarian as any Soviet Premier was. Its irrelvant if they changed their name or their economic system. I can call a cat a dog, but that doesn’t change the fact that its still a cat. Just as Russia is at its heart the same monster that it was as the Soviet Union and one day the west is going to wake up to Russia tanks pouring accross into Europe and realize that we made a vast mistake.

As for Abortion, yes if you want to compare the United States to Nazi Germany, we have killed far more people then Hitler could have imagined doing, all legal, some even state funded. We can’t pretend that our nation is on some sort of moral high ground as long as we have atrocities like Abortion plagueing our nation.

Ok /end rant
 
Since 1984 the moral and spiritual state of the world has obviously grown far worse:

There have been very few conversions to Catholicism in Russia since 1984,
less than one percent of the Russian population is Catholic.

By comparison, after Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared in Mexico,
more than 7 million Mexicans converted from paganism to the Catholic Faith
within nine years and Mexico became a Catholic country!

Thus it is clear Russia is not converted to the Catholic Faith
as Our Lady of Fatima promised would happen if Her request was done!

It has been 23 years!
Is THIS the Peace Our Lady of Fatima promised we would have?
Russia, China, France, UK, India, Israel, and Pakistan all have Nukes!
Iran, Korea & many others are in the process.
We are on the verge of Nations being Annihilated!

Russia is still spreading it’s Errors through out the world &
Terrorism, Famine & Abortion continue to spead across the globe!

No Peace + No Conversion = No Consecration .
 
Since 1984 the moral and spiritual state of the world has obviously grown far worse:

There have been very few conversions to Catholicism in Russia since 1984,
less than one percent of the Russian population is Catholic.

By comparison, after Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared in Mexico,
more than 7 million Mexicans converted from paganism to the Catholic Faith
within nine years and Mexico became a Catholic country!

Thus it is clear Russia is not converted to the Catholic Faith
as Our Lady of Fatima promised would happen if Her request was done!

It has been 23 years!
Is THIS the Peace Our Lady of Fatima promised we would have?
Russia, China, France, UK, India, Israel, and Pakistan all have Nukes!
Iran, Korea & many others are in the process.
We are on the verge of Nations being Annihilated!

Russia is still spreading it’s Errors through out the world &
Terrorism, Famine & Abortion continue to spead across the globe!

No Peace + No Conversion = No Consecration .
Sorry, I don’t remember any dates, timeframes or statistics mentioned by Our Lady in regard to the conversion of Russia. After all, she may have been only speaking of the regime, the Russian state. But either way, she did not indicate how long it would take.
 
Sorry, I don’t remember any dates, timeframes or statistics mentioned by Our Lady in regard to the conversion of Russia. After all, she may have been only speaking of the regime, the Russian state. But either way, she did not indicate how long it would take.
Jesus told Sr. Lucy that He wants it ***known ***that the conversion of Russia was due to His Mother, through the Consecration. A conversion 20, 30, 40 plus years later would not show this. Guadalupe is a perfect example, and yet after this consecration of Russia which never took place, what exactly has improved? And please don’t say the “fall of communism.” I can say I’m Catholic all I want but if I were secretly paying homage to the devil I’m not really Catholic. One other thing, where does JPII counter the accusation that the consecration never occured? It was also my understanding (someone correct me if I’m wrong) that the JPII never condemned the Marian Movement of Priests, that he was in fact very pleased with it, and yet the Blessed Virgin said that the Consecration never happened.
 
If this is the “period of peace”, I would hate to be in the “period of war”.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top