Traditionalist and Charismatic

[Chen_Zhen]

Chen Zhen;7965758:

The Charismatic movement is not compatible with Traditional Catholicism. The focus of worship needs to be centered on the use of the **intellect and will. **

So why does the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity give these gifts?

And why does the Apostle, who admittedly would prefer the use of the mind (1 C 14:19) in the church worships in tongues, “more than you all” (14:18)

intellect and will is not the whole person, we are called to love God with all our mind (of course) but also with the rest of our being.

Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner. (14: 39-40).

Assuming the Holy Spirit is the source of the person’s speaking in tongues is not a good argument.
One would have to prove in every individual case that the person speaking in tongues has been given that gift by the Holy Spirit in every individual case.
Where is the proof that the modern conception of “speaking in tongues” is the same as that revealed to us in Holy Scripture?
I am not claiming that the intellect and the will are the whole persons, only that they are the primary way in which we make acts of religion. We know (intellect) and we love (will),

 

[ajpirc]

I have aquaphobia, largely because I don’t know how to swim. Some of this stems from trauma as a kid. Does this make bodies of water larger than six feet deep less valid?

There’s lots of things that could startle a small child in a Latin Mass. Booming organs, unknown language, muttering prayers, large statues. People wearing veils. Incense (which also can smell funny). Lots of potentially scary things.

I think someone falling on the ground and shaking their head would be scarier for a child than a statue that just stands there, especially if it were someone you knew and loved.

When a small child first hears English they think it’s an unknown language. If all children heard Latin at Mass every weekend, they would learn it a lot quicker than a 30 year old would.

Organs boom?

Muttering prayers? Don’t we ‘mutter’ the Our Father every week at Mass?

And incense? What child doesn’t like to smell new things?

 

[Chen_Zhen]

Pray for them. Many of them have great attitudes and as they are further united to the truth and less “charismatic”,* they will be a tremendous asset because of their zeal.

The bolded, to me, indicated that you thought that to be further in the Truth you need to be less Charismatic. If that is not what you meant, then my apologies

I think you get my point then.
Basically, I’m saying that to be always seeking and accepting Truth as it pertains to faith is what makes the person Catholic. So, to be “traditional” or “charismatic” is not what makes the person Catholic, rather it is the soul seeking and giving assent to the truth. Knowing and loving.
The terms of traditional and charismatic are also misleading today. I’d imagine very few Catholics actually understand these terms in their proper manner.
But…I like to refer them to what St. Therese said when she was dying. She didn’t boast of great works and spiritual endeavors but told her superior she was ready to die and meet Our Lord because she had always sought the truth in all things.
She is a good example for Traditional or Charismatic faithful.

 

[ajpirc]

Basically, I’m saying that to be always seeking and accepting Truth as it pertains to faith is what makes the person Catholic.

So if a Protestant does this, does that make them Catholic?

 

[Chen_Zhen]

So if a Protestant does this, does that make them Catholic?

No, because as I said in a previous post a Catholic must be living the life of a Catholic and would therefore be keeping the Commandments and the Precepts of the Church.
The Catholic must be doing these things and must be validly Baptized.

 

[ajpirc]

No, because as I said in a previous post a Catholic must be living the life of a Catholic and would therefore be keeping the Commandments and the Precepts of the Church.
The Catholic must be doing these things and must be validly Baptized.

Ok, just verifying. Thanks

 

[Melchior_1]

I think you get my point then.
Basically, I’m saying that to be always seeking and accepting Truth as it pertains to faith is what makes the person Catholic. So, to be “traditional” or “charismatic” is not what makes the person Catholic, rather it is the soul seeking and giving assent to the truth. Knowing and loving.
The terms of traditional and charismatic are also misleading today. I’d imagine very few Catholics actually understand these terms in their proper manner.
But…I like to refer them to what St. Therese said when she was dying. She didn’t boast of great works and spiritual endeavors but told her superior she was ready to die and meet Our Lord because she had always sought the truth in all things.
She is a good example for Traditional or Charismatic faithful.

I think I understand what you are saying. I’m a bit defensive as I have had some traditionalists (in my city and also here on CAF) inform me that I’m a heretic, an inferior Catholic, and lacking full truth due to being a part of the charismatic movement. It sounds as if, after you clarified yourself, you are not saying that.

St. Therese and St. Francis are two excellent examples of a blend of traditional/charismatic.

 

[Chen_Zhen]

I think I understand what you are saying. I’m a bit defensive as I have had some traditionalists (in my city and also here on CAF) inform me that I’m a heretic, an inferior Catholic, and lacking full truth due to being a part of the charismatic movement. It sounds as if, after you clarified yourself, you are not saying that.

St. Therese and St. Francis are two excellent examples of a blend of traditional/charismatic.

Don’t let Traditional, Charismatic or whatever cloud you mind. We must focus on loving and serving God “in spirit and in truth”. On the day of Judgement, many of us, traditional and charismatic, Catholics will be sorely disappointed in ourselves if we don’t do this.
We must be “Catholic” as Christ desires us to be.
God love you!

 

[Melchior_1]

Don’t let Traditional, Charismatic or whatever cloud you mind. We must focus on loving and serving God “in spirit and in truth”. On the day of Judgement, many of us, traditional and charismatic, Catholics will be sorely disappointed in ourselves if we don’t do this.
We must be “Catholic” as Christ desires us to be.
God love you!

Exactly! If only more people have this kind of attitude, the Church would be much the richer for it.

May the Lord bless you and your loved ones!

 

[gtrenewed]

The charismatic renewal is focused on loving and serving God in spirit and truth. The various charisms of the renewal, such as tongues, are not new but are as old as the Church itself. The charisms have never left but have been provided by the Holy Spirit as He wills.

I know of a Catholic gentleman who was praying the rosary on the fantail of a ship during WWII and received tongues.

For me, the release of the power of the Holy Spirit allows me to be a faithful Catholic disciple of Jesus Christ. The charisms of the Holy Spirit enable us focus on and express our love for God through Jesus Christ.

It should not be a question of traditional vs charismatic. We are all Catholic walking on our discipleship path approved by the Holy Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ClayPots47]

ClayPots47 I have seen people praying in tongues, Resting in the Spirit, prophesying in tongues, interpreting the prophecy tongues, laying on of hands for healing prayer, singing both modern and traditional hymns and praying intercessory prayer.

No, I can’t explain it, it is something you have to observe. The bible doesn’t tell us to do lots of things we do. Last I recall, the Catholic Church is not a Sola Scriptura church. That would be protestant. The bible doesn’t tell you to kneel down and receive Holy Communion on your tongue, heck, the bible gives no guidelines. It is the Church and her traditions that do this. We are guided by scripture and tradition. The bible may not tell us to pray in tongues, but there are examples of praying in tongues in the early Church.

Acts 10 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

1 Corinthians 14 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit

1 Corinthians 13 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Prayer tongues are the tongues of angels, heavenly tongues of the Spirit that speak directly to God in praise, the most perfect praise. You are confusing the apostolic tongues with the prayer tongues, they are two different things, Apostolic tongues are the prophecy tongues used for preaching and teaching. An interpreter who knows the tongue, interprets it for those who don’t.

1 Corinthians 14 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Acts 19:6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied

Where is the laying-on-of-hands ever shown in the Bible, except perhaps when St. Peter takes the crippled man and the dead virgin by the hand? That humble healing is radically different from having a mock-ordination (for that’s what it is) of putting both hands on someone’s head! Please correct me if I’m wrong…

How in the world is the laying on of hands for healing prayer, a mock ordination? It’s not a sacrament, it’s just believers praying for one another. Ordination prayers aren’t used, no prayers used in a sacrament are used. I have no idea where you get the idea it’s a mock ordination, that is seriously stretching things. The position of Bishop and Deacon being ordained a priest, and how and when the imposition of hands takes place, bears no resemblance to the Charismatic Healing Prayer. They lay hand on the person they are praying for. Typically one hand is placed on the person, the other is stretched out in prayer, but sometimes people lay both hands on the person. If it is a large group praying, only those nearest the person being prayed over, place their hands upon them. The rest simply stretch out a hand in their direction. Some pray in tongues, others offer intercessory prayer, still others utter pious ejaculations. It is not a substitute for a sacrament, any more than you asking someone to pray for you. Here, the Charismatics pray for and with the person. And the person, depending on the circumstances, are strongly encouraged to make use of the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Anointing of the Sick, because they have the ability to provide healing.

(Continued in next post)

 

[ClayPots47]

(Continued from last post)

The bible is full of passages regarding the laying on of hands. Many of the sacramental ones performed by priests and bishops are directly from scripture verses of the apostles and church elders laying on hands for various sacraments and ministries. The laying on of hands is also used in exercising the charisms of healing, and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:18 (T)hey shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

2 Timothy 2:6-For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

Just so you know, the Holy Scriptures do not once say that tongues need to be “interpreted”. If you truly have the gift of tongues, both you and the foreigner you’re talking to know exactly what is being said. The Gift of Tongues is meant as a reparation of our situation after the fall of the Tower of Babel. IT IS NOT something you DO; when you have the gift of tongues, you speak English normally and Germans hear German; Italians hear Italian, etc. How can you know if you’re praying in tongues when you’re alone with God? This is God reaching back to us after Babel, in the healing grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and saying “here is your unity of language back: use it wisely this time, my children”.

The bible has numerous passages regarding the need to interpret prophesy tongues.

1 Corinthians 14 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14 6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

ClayPots47 And all are part of authentic Charismatic worship, and fully endorsed and accepted by the Church.

I’m not talking about ideas, how disingenuous of you. You know darn well what I meant, I’ve certainly quoted it enough. Three popes have personally, favorably and fully *endorsed * the Charismatic Renewal. Go read the 4 links I posted. Like it or not, it is a fully accepted and valid spiritual movement within the Church. Oh, in case you need to be reminded yet again, the Official Papal Household Preacher, is non other than Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap, who has been active in the Charismatic Renewal for many years. John Paul chose him, Benedict chose to retain him. Having heard the man speak, I can tell you that he is that good.

Can you give us any examples from YouTube that show the true, actual, complete Catholic Charismatic Renewal Mass/service? What is the fullness that we have received from this movement? I want to see it.

Oh yeah, like people are running around with video cameras during a Mass. The popes have already stated the fullness the Church has received from this movement, go read the 4 links I provided .If you want to see it so bad, find one in your area and go. I’m not about to hunt through YouTube to satisfy your whatever. I doubt I would find a complete Mass with Charismatics. It’s no different than any other OF Mass. It should follow the GIRM. The only difference is that when Charismatics celebrate an OF Mass, they make allowance for the participants to pray in tongues, This typically takes place after the opening hymn, but before the opening prayer, and at the elevation of the Host and Chalice, following consecration. It is the presiding priest who controls the time length of these prayer tongues. When he raises his hand to open the Mass with the Sign-of-the-Cross, that is the signal to stop. When he lowers the Host and Chalice, the congregants cease the tongues and ejaculations. An authentic Mass with Charismatics, as part of a Charismatic event, should not have any other activity during the Mass. Typically, after the Mass there is Adoration, Benediction, and Healing Prayers accompanied with the laying on of hands and for some, Resting in the Spirit If it was a Charismatic sponsored Healing Mass, it also typically includes the Anointing of the Sick from the presiding priest. And there often are opportunities before Mass to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation as well. Prior to the Mass, the prayer group meets elsewhere for group prayer as well. I am well aware, that there problems within the Renewal, and that Pentecostalism, pride and other problems have crept in. But that does not take away from the many graces and gifts the Renewal has brought to the Church, as stated by 3 popes.

 

[Holly3278]

I am not sure what the relationship between the two are but I am both a traditionalist and a charismatic Catholic.

 

[john_aurelius]

The charismatic renewal is focused on loving and serving God in spirit and truth. The various charisms of the renewal, such as tongues, are not new but are as old as the Church itself. The charisms have never left but have been provided by the Holy Spirit as He wills.

I know of a Catholic gentleman who was praying the rosary on the fantail of a ship during WWII and received tongues.

For me, the release of the power of the Holy Spirit allows me to be a faithful Catholic disciple of Jesus Christ. The charisms of the Holy Spirit enable us focus on and express our love for God through Jesus Christ.

It should not be a question of traditional vs charismatic. We are all Catholic walking on our discipleship path approved by the Holy Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

For me it enables me to fucus on the faith that I have in God, with Hin in my life and lifts me in His service. I believe thats called edification and I thank God the Holy Spirit for His grace in my life.

Veni Sante Spiritus
et emitte caelitus
lucis tuae radium.
Veni, pater pauperum,
veni, dator munerum,
veni, lumen cordium.



Compendium of the CCC, p187

 

[ClayPots47]

You mentioned that Charismatic Renewal doesn’t borrow from Pentacostalism, yet Pentacostalism preceded Charismatic Renewal. John Wesley, among others, experimented with the speaking in tongues in the 1700’s (my great grandfather was a Methodist preacher). So, if the Protestants hadn’t thought of it first, through private interpretation of scripture, would Catholics have afterwards likely started experimenting with speaking in tongues, too?

Why not? When he convened the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, Pope John XXIII was hoping to open the windows of the Church and allow the wind of the Holy Spirit to flow through it. The birth of the Renewal began two years after the Council closed.
The Catholic population were asked to pray for the success of the Council, and the prayer they were asked to recite was “May there be a new Pentecost in our Church” In February 1967, a group of faculty and students from Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, gathered for a weekend retreat. This weekend is often referred to as the ‘Duquesne weekend’, and is considered as the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church. The retreat concentrated on the first four chapters of the Acts of the Apostles. And there was an expectation that the Holy Spirit would make His presence felt. They were not disappointed. All present experienced a deep work of God within their Spirits, and charismatic gifts were manifested in the group. (dentoncatholic.org/history.html) This movement spread through Pennsylvania, Cardinal Kroll was an ardent supporter of it in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, and assigned Monsignor Vincent Walsh to oversee the movement. This was where I became active. When Cardinal Bevilacqua took over, he too became an ardent supporter, especially of the archdiocesan young adult groups. The ‘Duquesne weekend’ continued to spread through the US, and then throughout the world. Acts 5:39 “But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

Let’s not forget that many saints and holy people exhibited charisms, and they exhibited them long before Wesley and the Pentecostals. The Catholic church had the charisms long before the Protestants existed. Once again, they got them from us. They got it from the bible they got from us.

 

[ClayPots47]

I do not mean to offend anyone who is involved with this movement, but I really do not think it compatible with Catholicism. Now I don’t care if Mother Theresa or anyone else did a Charismatic dance while being slain and speaking in tongues simultaneously (I would never accuse her of doing such) I find no grounds for reconciling it with Catholicism. Also, I think those who try and use saints such as Padre Pio as example of saints who would approve of the movement need to read more about these saints and their writings. I can imagine Padre Pios reaction to seeing some of these events. Anyway - that’s my opinion, don’t bite my head off!

Your entire post is a one-sided rant that is patently offensive to those in the movement. And having been involved in the movement, I have rarely witnessed problems. What youthree popes, count them, three have fully supported and endorsed the movement. It is compatible with Catholicism because the Popes said it was, along with numerous cardinals and bishops. And John Paul’s Papal Household Preacher, appointed by him, is a charismatic. This same preacher was retained by Benedict. Finally no one used Padre Pio as an example of saints who would approve of the movement! NO ONE!
So stop the disingenuous statements please. The only mention of Padre Pio, was to give an example of one of many saints who exhibited charisms long before the Renewal, showing that the charisms didn’t die, they just mostly went dormant. An article showing the existence of numerous charisms exhibited by Padre Pio was linked in a post by me. But no claim was ever made declaring him to be in approval. Your opinion means nothing as far as the church is concerned. as the Holy Father continues to speak favorably of it, and regularly meets with key people in the Renewal to make sure it is fully Catholic by culling out abuses and errors. It is compatible with Catholicism because three popes said so. You either accept the opinions of those popes, or you don’t. But I would think it dangerous to not accept the words of the pope. Again, you don’t have to like it, you don’t have to participate in it, but just like you have to accept other things you Traditionalists generally don’t like, such as indults allowing communion in the hand, the OF of the liturgy, etc, etc, etc, because the Church allows them; so you have to accept the fact that the Renewal is an integral part of current Catholic spirituality.

 

[ClayPots47]

I don’t think anyone, with a straight face, can honestly deny that a more than a fair chunk of the “Charismatic” Mass is modelled after pentacostal protestant worship.

Well, if what you are saying is correct, than you are saying the the OF is modeled after protestant worship. Because every Charismatic Mass I have attended is the OF according to the GIRM. The only thing that makes it ‘Charismatic’ is the fact that there are typically three opportunities to pray in tongues, and make vocal ejaculations, during the Mass. Typically after the opening hymn, but before the sing-of-the-cross, and at the elevation of the Host and Chalice after Consecration. I fail to see the resemblance between that and a typical Pentecostal service. Truthfully, there really is no such thing as a ‘Charismatic Mass’. It is the OF Mass, celebrated for and with Charismatics. So I can honestly deny, with a straight face, that a so-called "Charismatic Mass’ is modeled after Pentecostal protestant worship, because that simply is not true. Not even close.

 

[ClayPots47]

Quote:

“The difference with baptism in the Spirit, however, is that it is open to all the people of God, small and great, and not only to those privileged ones who do the Ignatian Spiritual exercises or make a religious profession.”

Could you please explain what this ‘baptism in the spirit’ means, exactly? My understanding is that we can only be baptized once. And only once. Also, can you explain what you mean by baptism in the spirit being open to all the people of God?

The answer is in the very passage I quoted of Fr Cantalamessa’s… Fr said it’s not a sacrament, nor is it a substitute for one, but it is related to them. There is a link at the bottom of the quote, so you can read the whole article by Fr Cantalamessa. Your last question is self-explanatory, Fr Cantalemessa stated that anyone can experience the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, whereas for many years only a few experienced.it.

 

[SunshineZA]

Well, if what you are saying is correct, than you are saying the the OF is modeled after protestant worship. Because every Charismatic Mass I have attended is the OF according to the GIRM. The only thing that makes it ‘Charismatic’ is the fact that there are typically three opportunities to pray in tongues, and make vocal ejaculations, during the Mass. Typically after the opening hymn, but before the sing-of-the-cross, and at the elevation of the Host and Chalice after Consecration. I fail to see the resemblance between that and a typical Pentecostal service. Truthfully, there really is no such thing as a ‘Charismatic Mass’. It is the OF Mass, celebrated for and with Charismatics. So I can honestly deny, with a straight face, that a so-called "Charismatic Mass’ is modeled after Pentecostal protestant worship, because that simply is not true. Not even close.

People, we are talking about the Holy Spirit - One God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be ordered around by humans… and is not more favourable to Protestant denominations than to Catholics. The Holy Spirit is Holy. Nobody has ever actually seen the Holy Spirit, but we have all experienced His presence in our lives. If not, we need to examine our conscience. Nobody can order to be baptised in the Spirit. It is a gift bestowed on us.

Who of us can clearly state that we do not know someone, or know of a Saint who has the gift of healing or the gift of extraordinary faith? These extraordinary gifts are gifts of the Holy Spirit and does not depend on the intellect. Even exorcising, a well known Catholic practise, is a gift of the Spirit given to a Priest.
Love,
S

 

[Melchior_1]

Why are these gifts charismatic gifts becoming more prevalent now? Why is the movement picking up steam?

The same reason why the Extraordinary Form is becoming more prevalent; we need BOTH to fight the Evil one, whose attacks are becoming more frequent than ever.

Consider when the Charismatic Renewal started and the SSPX started making waves, what happened (sexual revolution and sex abuse scandals). And like always, Satan steps in and tries to make a mockery of things that are holy (the SSPX debacle and crazies who take charismatic behaivour too far).

Yet even when we are down to nothing, God is up to something. From that we have two Societies of Apostolic Life (The FSSP and the Companions of the Cross) who are taking up the efforts in the fight against the Devil. We have mainstream orders now embracing one or both of these movements.

There are not such thing as coincidences, there’s a reason both movements are going strong. Although the methods are different, the goal is the same; save souls through the Sacraments.