Traditionalist and Charismatic

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Vardaquinn wrote:

“It’s an event seen in the lives of many saints (just look at St. Catherine of Siena, who was slain in the spirit every time she received communion). But you must understand that this is the Holy Spirit acting on a person.”

I have a question regarding what you wrote above. Did St.Catherine of Siena ask for - or pray for - this being ‘slain in the spirit’ when she received communion?
 
So you disagree Paul and/or the Corinthians were Catholic? thats a novel teaching… or else wht did you write 1800 and not the whole 2000?
I was guessing this phenomenon began in Protestantism about 200 years ago. I find it funny that people equate things like babbling, being ‘slain in the spirit’ and singing rousing hymns to what happened to the Apostles.

They became impressive men of power. If this was seriously happening in Charismatic circles the Catholic Church would have taken over the world since the 60’s, I think.

I am concerned that naive people are falling for an old trick: give the audience permission to express themselves. It just looks … odd.
 
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     It seems very much to me that Ex Libris is against  people expressing  their enthusiasm for the faith. Though I'm kind of a  stickler for proper  liturgical music (following the model of Gregorian  chant), it seems  that you are reacting in a somewhat extreme fashion to  people expressing  great enthusiasm for the faith.
I am not against people expressing their enthusiasm for the faith. I just don’t think the spouting of gibberish and rock concerts are how one shows enthusiasm.

As I mentioned earlier, someone that is full of the Holy Spirit will have the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I can sum up all my feelings with this:

Question 176 and Article I and II of Saint Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica and Saint Augustine’s 6th Homily on First Epistle of John can not be reconciled with the modern Charismatic movement.

The gift of tongues was a 1st century manifestation that is no longer needed because the Church is capable of communicating to the entire world.
 
Vardaquinn wrote:

“It’s an event seen in the lives of many saints (just look at St. Catherine of Siena, who was slain in the spirit every time she received communion). But you must understand that this is the Holy Spirit acting on a person.”

I have a question regarding what you wrote above. Did St.Catherine of Siena ask for - or pray for - this being ‘slain in the spirit’ when she received communion?
Do you, or anyone you know, pray for healing or release from the shackles of a specific sin? Or do you, and others, only pray in generalities?

She may have, may not have. We don’t know for sure except for it happened to her. Personally I think people should pray for gifts in general and accept whatever God gives them, but that’s just me.
 
Do you, or anyone you know, pray for healing or release from the shackles of a specific sin? Or do you, and others, only pray in generalities?

She may have, may not have. We don’t know for sure except for it happened to her. Personally I think people should pray for gifts in general and accept whatever God gives them, but that’s just me.
As a Catholic, of course I pray for help to have the strength to oversome my bad, sinful habits, and I pray that others will be helped. too. No need to be slain in the spirit to do that. You may be assuming that Catholics don’t pray for specific things. I don’t think that’s the case. Our evening prayers include examination of conscience, where we remember the sins we’ve committed during the day, and then say the act of contrition. And of course we go to confession if we’ve committed a grave sin; and it’s helpful too, to go to confession to confess venial sins. This isn’t something new to Catholics.

I have never read any account of St Catherine of Siena, from any historian, as having been ‘slain in the spirit,’ much less that she asked to be ‘slain in the spirit.’ She did however experience ecstasy, but I don’t think that’s the same thing. Perhaps Charismatics and Pentacostals would consider them to be the same thing, though.

Regarding praying for gifts, well, I haven’t done that since I was a child at Christmastime.

Who coined the phrase ‘slain in the spirit,’ anyway? It’s not in Scripture, but it’s a phrase that Pentacostals have been using for quite some time.

I found a good website by a Protestant and former Pentacostal minister named Ted Brooks. He has, from what I can tell, a good understanding of the problems that can accompany being 'slain in the spirit. The site is called, “And We All Fall Down.” I didn’t find anything anti-Catholic on it, or at least on the page that I’ve linked to. In fact, Mr. Brooks is quite charitable in addressing the issue.

bereanpublishers.com/Deception_in_the_Church/And_We_All_Fall_Down.htm
 
I was guessing this phenomenon began in Protestantism about 200 years ago. I find it funny that people equate things like babbling, being ‘slain in the spirit’ and singing rousing hymns to what happened to the Apostles.
Well, first thing the Apostles did at Pentecost was what you call “babbling”. It didn’t begin in Protestantism. It began at Pentecost. Some charisms became less common at times, but ultimately they were still present in the Church. In fact, I’d wager they’re even present in your own life. Unfortunately, you’re confusing and mixing a lot of things together.
Question 176 and Article I and II of Saint Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica and Saint Augustine’s 6th Homily on First Epistle of John can not be reconciled with the modern Charismatic movement. The gift of tongues was a 1st century manifestation that is no longer needed because the Church is capable of communicating to the entire world.
Perhaps they cannot be reconciled with your false perception of the movement. St. Thomas Aquinas’ (and many theologians’) understanding of the gift of tongues was simply limited to preaching the Gospel in unknown languages. St. Augustine recanted his position later in his book Retractions, after having witnessing so many miracles and charisms active in his ministry as bishop.

First of all, you’re totally contradicting the facts. The fact is, the gift of tongues never did die away. Many many many saints, well after the 1st century, have received the gift of tongues (referring to what Aquinas is talking about). St. Dominic, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Vincent Ferrer, St. Francis Xavier, Bl. John Paul II… Obviously it didn’t die away with the 1st century. Bl. John Paul II, in his book “Rise Let Us Be On Our Way” notes that we should pray for the gift of tongues (specifically the ability to preach the Gospel in languages we do not know).

But you must understand that there are different forms of the gift of tongues, as seen both in Scripture and contemporary experience. There is the form we have just mentioned. There is also the form you call “babbling”. The latter form is more evident in Scripture than the other. This is when the Holy Spirit prays through the person, and he prays in languages he does not know. Read the Acts of the Apostles. Certainly, for instance when Paul baptizes the people at Ephesus, they’re not preaching the Gospel! And St. Paul speaks specifically about “praying in a tongue”.

The fact is, this gift is prevalent once more in the Church today. To deny this is simply ridiculous. The Church has affirmed the validity of this charism, I don’t see why you should contest it.

Your thinking is very Protestant. Luther and Calvin proclaimed that the “age of miracles” was over, and they did away with the sacraments of confirmation and anointing of the sick. The Church has never affirmed this, read the above quotes from the documents of Vatican II. Your standpoint is NOT the standpoint of the Church. I’m sorry but… are you aware of what is happening today? Do you think we don’t need these special charisms to preach the Gospel today? May I point you to the DRAMATIC rise of Pentecostalism through out the world. In the Catholic Church, in many places (for instance in Europe), the places where the faith is alive are among charismatic communities. I invite you to read the illuminating book “The Catholic Church at the End of an Age” by Ralph Martin.
Who coined the phrase ‘slain in the spirit,’ anyway? It’s not in Scripture, but it’s a phrase that Pentacostals have been using for quite some time.
I don’t know, does it matter? The event happening in Scripture happens all the time, even in the Old Testament.

… that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.” (2 Chronicles 5:14)

“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.” (Revelation 1:17)

“So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face.” (Ezekiel 3:23)

“Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the Lord standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face.” (Numbers 22:31)

“Then He brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple; so I looked, and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord; and I fell on my face.” (Ezekiel 44:4)

This is what is called an “ecstasy”. What St. Catherine of Siena experienced (and many other saints) was this form of ecstasy of being prostrate and unaware of your surroundings. One time there were men who were cleaning the church, and assumed she was dead and they threw her out onto the street. Another time, when in Avingon, some nobles poked her with a needle to see if it was really genuine. She did not react to it, until she came out of the ecstasy.

I don’t condone praying for this. It is a special phenomena that may occur. If it happens, great. If not, no matter. It’s not a sign of great holiness.
 
To clarify, being slain in the spirit is not a charismatic gift. Though a gift may accompany it, it itself falls into a different category. I don’t object to people being slain in the spirit (since of course, it’s the Holy Spirit who does it), but I do object to people actively seeking it. We should be careful of sensational experiences and extraordinary consolations, and not go actively seeking them. Often they are given to individuals who need many special experiences like that to build up their faith. Most spiritual writers would agree with me (St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, etc.). I have never been slain in the spirit.
 
Vardaquinn wrote,

“This is what is called “ecstasy”. What St. Catherine experienced (and many other saints experienced) was this from of ecstasy of being prostrate and unaware of your surroundings.”

And yet, how many times was she found actually lying down, prostrate, when experiencing these ecstasies? I don’t think that this is the usual mode of a person when they are in ecstasy (falling down). Isn’t it correct to say that Catholic Charismatics and Protestant Pentacostals believe that it’s the ‘Holy Spirit’ that causes a person to be slain in the spirit, and to then fall down? So, is it a teaching of the Church that ecstasies are the result of the ‘Holy Spirit’ causing this, in the same manner in which Charismatics/Pentacostals believe it to be?
 
Vardaquinn wrote,
And yet, how many times was she found actually lying down, prostrate, when experiencing these ecstasies? I don’t think that this is the usual mode of a person when they are in ecstasy (falling down). Isn’t it correct to say that Catholic Charismatics and Protestant Pentacostals believe that it’s the ‘Holy Spirit’ that causes a person to be slain in the spirit, and to then fall down? So, is it a teaching of the Church that ecstasies are the result of the ‘Holy Spirit’ causing this, in the same manner in which Charismatics/Pentacostals believe it to be?
Well, as I understand it, it’s a temporary suspension of the faculties, when someone is as though dead to the world. Naturally people generally fall. I always imagined St. Catherine hunched up against the communion rail.

Several spiritual writers talk about forms of ecstasies, and being slain in the spirit would definitely fall under this category. I myself don’t know much about it, having never been slain in the spirit like that. Ecstasies like this have to be the supernatural of course, so… And of course I highly highly doubt the devil would be working to do this.

Apparently St. Ignatius of Loyola was hauled in for questioning because so many people “fainted” (were slain in the spirit) while he preached.

I wouldn’t worry about it to much, as long as people don’t consider it to be a spiritual charism.
 
Well, as I understand it, it’s a temporary suspension of the faculties, when someone is as though dead to the world. Naturally people generally fall. I always imagined St. Catherine hunched up against the communion rail.

Several spiritual writers talk about forms of ecstasies, and being slain in the spirit would definitely fall under this category. I myself don’t know much about it, having never been slain in the spirit like that. Ecstasies like this have to be the supernatural of course, so… And of course I highly highly doubt the devil would be working to do this.

Apparently St. Ignatius of Loyola was hauled in for questioning because so many people “fainted” (were slain in the spirit) while he preached.

I wouldn’t worry about it to much, as long as people don’t consider it to be a spiritual charism.
Thank you for your answer, but what I’m trying to get at is this…is your understanding of being ‘slain in the spirit’ the same as what the Church teaches as to what causes all these forms of ecstasies, faintings, etc.? how do you know for sure being ‘slain in the spirit’ definately falls under the category of these forms of ecstasies? It would seem that Charismatics believe that it’s always the work of the ‘Holy spirit’ that causes any sort of ecstasy, fainting, etc., and Charismatics seem to adopt, as one of their own, all these saints who experienced any of these things. But I’ve never seen an account of any of these saints in which it was said or written that their experiences line up with a Charismatic/Pentacostal understanding of this.
 
Were Catholics Traditionalist and Charismatic at the first Pentecost?
 
Were Catholics Traditionalist and Charismatic at the first Pentecost?
The first Pentacost was the birth of the Catholic Church. It is the birthday of our Church. I don’t know if it could rightly be called Traditionalist at the time of its birth; probably not, but I don’t see how it could be called Charismatic by the standards of the Charismatics and Pentacostals. On the first Pentacost, the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles, but the Apostles certainly didn’t fall down and become ‘slain in the spirit,’ when this happened.
 
One of the differences that there may be between Traditionalists and Charismatics is that while Traditional Catholics (but not only Traditionalists, any Catholic really, who strives to remain in a state of grace, which certainly isn’t limited to trads) use the means available to them for a long time to achieve sanctity. For instance, they use daily prayer - morning, Rosary, and evening prayers. They will dedicate decades of the Rosary for particular intentions. They read scripture, and they also pray novenas, and ask for the intercession of saints to help them and others. They also go to confession on a regular basis, and recieve the sacrament of Penance.

My question for Charismatics is this: do you also also use these things that are mentioned above? Or do you believe that becasue you have a one-on-one relationship with the Third Person of the Holy Trinity that this means that you can somehow bypass the traditional means that Catholics have always used to help them? Do these Charismatic gifts somehow, for you, take the place or replace some of the traditional means to holiness?
 
As a Catholic, of course I pray for help to have the strength to oversome my bad, sinful habits, and I pray that others will be helped. too. No need to be slain in the spirit to do that. You may be assuming that Catholics don’t pray for specific things. I don’t think that’s the case. Our evening prayers include examination of conscience, where we remember the sins we’ve committed during the day, and then say the act of contrition. And of course we go to confession if we’ve committed a grave sin; and it’s helpful too, to go to confession to confess venial sins. This isn’t something new to Catholics.

I have never read any account of St Catherine of Siena, from any historian, as having been ‘slain in the spirit,’ much less that she asked to be ‘slain in the spirit.’ She did however experience ecstasy, but I don’t think that’s the same thing. Perhaps Charismatics and Pentacostals would consider them to be the same thing, though.

If you don’t see a need for it, ok. Frankly, I want all that the Lord is willing to give me. If you will remember, St. Paul corrected error happening during the Lord’s Supper. Just because there was error does not invalidate what the Lord has given us. The way I see it, if just working on being a better person was enough, why replace the old covenant? Jesus said He had to go for us to have the full benefit of the covenant He established, the benefit of the Holy Spirit and our inheritance in the kingdom. Since Scripture validates the gifts to all the body, I will desire them as I seek Him.

Regarding praying for gifts, well, I haven’t done that since I was a child at Christmastime.

Who coined the phrase ‘slain in the spirit,’ anyway? It’s not in Scripture, but it’s a phrase that Pentacostals have been using for quite some time.

I found a good website by a Protestant and former Pentacostal minister named Ted Brooks. He has, from what I can tell, a good understanding of the problems that can accompany being 'slain in the spirit. The site is called, “And We All Fall Down.” I didn’t find anything anti-Catholic on it, or at least on the page that I’ve linked to. In fact, Mr. Brooks is quite charitable in addressing the issue.

bereanpublishers.com/Deception_in_the_Church/And_We_All_Fall_Down.htm
Denise, despite your questionable reference to praying for gifts at Christmas, St. Paul encourages us even commands us to “earnestly desire spiritual gifts”. These gifts are listed by St.Paul in 1Cor 12:1:11; these nine gifts are manifestations of the Holy Spirit given for the common good in a particular situation.

Ectasy (of which slain in the Spirit is a subset) is a term to describe what happens when we encounter the Trinity in a profound, overwhelming manner. Since Jesus said the Holy Spirit was being sent as our Comforter, we most naturally refer to these as encountering the Holy Spirit. Regardless though, they are an encounter with the mystery of the Trinity.

As for praying for these encounters, Scripture tells us to seek the Lord with all our being, spirit, soul, and body. Scripture tells us that if we seek we shall find. So we are seeking to encounter the Lord and sometimes it is so intense that we are in ectasy and sometimes we fall down.

As far as the saints in history are concerned, you are trying to compare language from a different time concerning an experience that is very personal and difficult for others to comprehend. That is why these saints were envied and under such scrutiny and many were persecuted for their experiences. Those that have experienced ectasy can easily tell from the writings. Those that have not will not.

Where there is error the mature need to correct the immature. Your Mr. Brooks is speaking to a larger problem of what people supposedly do when under the power. That whole movement he is addressing is what happens when the mature tolerate immaturity. Remember, that was a protestant movement and thus not accountable to the maturity of the Catholic Church. That is one reason I am a comeback Catholic.

Everything of God comes by faith. Reading scripture stirred my faith to believe and receive from God. I am guided by the Church Jesus left us and empowered by the Holy Spirit that the Father and Jesus sent us.
 
The first Pentacost was the birth of the Catholic Church. It is the birthday of our Church. I don’t know if it could rightly be called Traditionalist at the time of its birth; probably not, but I don’t see how it could be called Charismatic by the standards of the Charismatics and Pentacostals. On the first Pentacost, the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles, but the Apostles certainly didn’t fall down and become ‘slain in the spirit,’ when this happened.
Remember it was 120 in the upper room. They certainly were not acting normal since everyone else thought they were drunk.
 
This site pretty much echoes what I’ve read elsewhere about the ‘falling down’ and ‘babbling’ ‘gifts’. They’re something people do because they feel they should.

I would also never, under any circumstances, surrender my will to a spirit. Who knows what might come in or what your own subconscious might throw up?
To whom do you surrender for God is Spirit. When you receive communion who do you think it is? When you pray, how do you know your prayer is going to God? I suspect because you believe the Gospel. Well, part of that Gospel are the nine gifts of the Spirit.

The gifts I earnestly desire are given by God the Holy Spirit, that is who I surrender to.

Do you pray because that is something you feel you should do, I think it is but wait, How can I know your internal motivations, I can’t, and so you can’t tell the internal motivations of others, so stop generalizing. That site is dealing with a particular problem that is part of pentecostalism but not supported by true mature Charismatics.
 
gtrenewed wrote:

“Ectasy (sp?) (of which being slain in the Spirit is a subset) is a term to describe what happens when we encounter the Trinity in a profound, overwhelming manner.” /unquote

Could you please provide definitive Church teaching which shows that being slain in the spirit is a subset of ecstasy?

Quote:

“Those who have experienced ectasy (ecstasy) can easily tell from the writings. Those that have not will not.” /unquote

So you believe that only those who believe that they share these same experiences that the saints have are qualified to say what they are?

Quote:

“Everything comes by faith.” /unquote

And yet, gtrenewed, the Church teaches that there is something important that precedes faith, right?
 
One of the differences that there may be between Traditionalists and Charismatics is that while Traditional Catholics (but not only Traditionalists, any Catholic really, who strives to remain in a state of grace, which certainly isn’t limited to trads) use the means available to them for a long time to achieve sanctity. For instance, they use daily prayer - morning, Rosary, and evening prayers. They will dedicate decades of the Rosary for particular intentions. They read scripture, and they also pray novenas, and ask for the intercession of saints to help them and others. They also go to confession on a regular basis, and recieve the sacrament of Penance.

My question for Charismatics is this: do you also also use these things that are mentioned above? Or do you believe that becasue you have a one-on-one relationship with the Third Person of the Holy Trinity that this means that you can somehow bypass the traditional means that Catholics have always used to help them? Do these Charismatic gifts somehow, for you, take the place or replace some of the traditional means to holiness?
How did believers attain holiness before the rosary, before novenas, before scripture, before saints were declared, in other words the first church?

Are you saying you do not have a one on one relationship with God?

Not all Catholics use the same routine (for lack of a better word) to seek God. That is why there are many different orders, ways, apostalates, and rules. Just like other Catholics we Charismatics also use varying ways such as you have mentioned.
 
How did believers attain holiness before the rosary, before novenas, before scripture, before saints were declared, in other words the first church?

Are you saying you do not have a one on one relationship with God?

Not all Catholics use the same routine (for lack of a better word) to seek God. That is why there are many different orders, ways, apostalates, and rules. Just like other Catholics we Charismatics also use varying ways such as you have mentioned.
Well, I think that you have helped to confirm my idea about what the differences are (or may be) between Traditional Catholics and Charismatics. I won’t assume, though, that all Charismatics are so different than Traditionalists in this manner.
 
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