Honestly, Denise. If you cannot accept the instruction of the Apostle Paul in the Scriptures, I really don’t think anything else will help. In fact,given the number of informative links you have been given, it seems pretty clear that you are not able to encompass the fact that God has given charismatic gifts to everyone, and that they are to function alongside the sacraments for the building up of the believer, and the body.
I’m a simple-minded person, and not an intellectual like yourself.
I must have missed a post, because I could not find any such question. I think if you are not able to accept the Teaching of the Apostles present in the Holy Scriptures, then there is nothing else that will really be of much use. The interpreter of Scripture is the Church, not any private individual. You have been given quotes from the Vatican documents, the catechism, and members of the Magesterium. I think that is the best that anyone can do.
A very telling post. I sincerely hope you are not intending to speak for all “traditionalists”.
I appreciate you kind sentiments in this post. I hope that you can see that Charismaticism and Traditionalism are worlds apart, really. I don’t think that Charismatics are bad or have bad intentions. Despite what I’ve written, I think that they are good people…just misguided.I must have missed a post, because I could not find any such question. I think if you are not able to accept the Teaching of the Apostles present in the Holy Scriptures, then there is nothing else that will really be of much use. The interpreter of Scripture is the Church, not any private individual. You have been given quotes from the Vatican documents, the catechism, and members of the Magesterium. I think that is the best that anyone can do.
Hopefully others that are reading the thread may find these resources more useful than you have.
May God bless you, and keep you, my beloved sister.
I don’t think they’re going against the Catholic faith is they don’t accept the CR. They don’t have to. Like also you don’t have to accept something like Fatima.
The Holy Spirit Himself is NOT a blank space on which you can write anything. Where on earth are you pulling that from? The Holy Spirit is GOD. That is extremely relativistic. You don’t define what the Holy Spirit is. He’s truth itself, and to say that would mean that you yourself would have to be God. That makes no logical or theological sense at all. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are defined in the Bible and in the Catechism (though those lifts are exhaustive).
I don’t know what you are trying to say here, Inq, but on it’s face, this is a blatantly heretical statement.
There is no contradicdtion or opposition between the TLM and developing as a Christian. When one uses the gifts that God gives them, they grow spiritually, and they serve the Church. This is important whether we attend a Divine Litugy (Eastern), Traditional Latin Mass, or Novus Ordo.
I agree. I am not familiar with the term “charismaticism”. This thread is my first exposure to such a term. Perhaps it does include “babbling”, but since I have not experience with it, I am not in a position to say.
I don’t have to accept that “Charisms” are an ordinary part of Christian life. And it’s not Church teaching that I have to accept it. Extraordinary - perhaps. If you and other Charismatics feel compelled to speak in tongues and prophecy, that’s your choice, but it was never a part of ordinary CATHOLIC Christian life. Protestant Christian life; yes, for quite some time now, for the Pentacostal Hillbilly denominations.
I think I do see that. Since I am unclear what the word “charismaticism” means, all I can go by is how it has been referenced on this thread. From what I can tell, it has nothing to do with Catholic faith at all. In fact, it may be a product of some people’s imagination.
It has certainly become abundantly clear that one can be equally misguided, whether one is open to the Gifts of God, or completely closed off to them.
Although such an approach to one’s spirituality is very narrow and limiting, it is certainly not damaging in any way. We can always pray that the persons attending the TLM will hear the Word of God preached during that time, so that their spirits become open for all the abundance of God’s gifts that he has for them, and that, at some point, they will become open to the equipping of themselves to do the work of the ministry.
I was speaking in general about the charismatic gifts, which aren’t limited to extraordinary things like tongues, prophecy and miracles.
I know this is true, Denise. God made us in his own likeness and image, and that means we all have free will. There are hundreds of thousands of so called “Catholics” that pick and choose which parts of the Church teaching they are willing to accept. They believe they can reject part of the Catholic faith, and still be Catholics in good standing. They are commonly called “cafeteria catholics”.
You are right. The Church teaches that no article of faith or doctrine can be compulsed upon a person, and that every soul must be free to reject the Truth.
It is not a compulsion, but a privilege to receive the Gifts of God. The HS never “compluses” anyone. Just as you are not “compelled” to accept the doctrines of the faith.
We will all have to answer for God if we willfully and stubbornly reject the doctrines of the faith, and if we refuse to use the gifts he has given us for the service of the Church.
You are right. Most of us are baptized as infants, and the charismatic gifts, along with the gift of salvation are afforded to us without asking. All of us have received these gifts in our baptism. When one begins to unwrap and use those gifts, it is most appropriate to seek spiritual direction.
Is there some reason she would be denied by God? When they were in the upper room, do you think the tongues of fire passed her by?
Where does the catechism say that the Charisms which Charismatics ascribe to (speaking in tongues and prophecies) should be, or are, a part of ordinary Christian life?
The links and passages from Scripture have been posted in the thread, Denise. If you don’t want to look at them, or understand them, that is your choice. There is one reference that has not been posted, though:
It speaks more in general about the charisms listed in Corinthians 12, see paragraph 2003 among others. It says sometimes these charisms are more extraordinary (such as miracles or tongues). This doesn’t mean that tongues or miracles are necessarily very rare, however. I remember hearing about an argument at the Vatican Council over whether tongues and prophecy should be considered “extraordinary” since they seem meant to be so common. It says many many times throughout the CCC that all the faithful share in the prophetic office of Christ. This doesn’t mean specifically that everyone has to go around prophesying, but as Moses says in the book of Numbers “would that everyone could be a prophet of the Lord” (this is when several of the elders began prophesying in the camp).
SighI know this is true, Denise. God made us in his own likeness and image, and that means we all have free will. There are hundreds of thousands of so called “Catholics” that pick and choose which parts of the Church teaching they are willing to accept. They believe they can reject part of the Catholic faith, and still be Catholics in good standing. They are commonly called “cafeteria catholics”.
You are right. The Church teaches that no article of faith or doctrine can be compulsed upon a person, and that every soul must be free to reject the Truth.
It is not a compulsion, but a privilege to receive the Gifts of God. The HS never “compluses” anyone. Just as you are not “compelled” to accept the doctrines of the faith.
It has always been an ordinary part of Catholic Christian life. People have not always practiced the faith in the same way the Apostles did. That is why the Apostles spoke in tongues, and most now do not. Some elements of the faith have fallen by they wayside, presumably because many individuals did not know, or refused to accept that such things are part of the normal Catholic faith experience.
We will all have to answer for God if we willfully and stubbornly reject the doctrines of the faith, and if we refuse to use the gifts he has given us for the service of the Church.
You are right. Most of us are baptized as infants, and the charismatic gifts, along with the gift of salvation are afforded to us without asking. All of us have received these gifts in our baptism. When one begins to unwrap and use those gifts, it is most appropriate to seek spiritual direction.
Is there some reason she would be denied by God? When they were in the upper room, do you think the tongues of fire passed her by?
Read Corinthians 14. “Seek eagerly the greatest spiritual gifts: especially that you might prophesy.”