Trads and the Charismatic "Renewal."

  • Thread starter Thread starter semper_catholicus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
semper_catholicus said:
What do all of you guys think of the Charismatic “renewal” which seems to be prevalent in the Church now? What do you think about the claim that another Pentecost is taking place? Do you think trads ought to reject this whole movement? Please, give me your thoughts
Click to expand...
The title of the thread is misleading. It is Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The Renewal is not in parenthesis, which is degrading. The renewal of their Catholic faith is real, for those who experience them. Their lives were changed. They are not faking them. It is not right to insinuate otherwise as we cannot know what’s in their hearts.
 
Last edited:
goout said:
My thoughts are, what does it matter what “Trads” reject?

It’s like if I rejected your Trad expression of your faith. Would that matter to you? I would hope not.

I don’t reject your expression of your faith, because it’s yours, and as long as it is also Catholic it’s all good.

You should give the same respect to other expressions of the faith. Not respecting the expression of a person’s faith is not a Catholic thing, especially when that expression has the respect of the Magisterium.

So, it’s always a good idea to look in the mirror, and put yourself to the same test you put others to.
Click to expand...
Well put. I don’t understand the need to be down on those who pray in different ways. Sure, I may not like to pray that way, and maybe it even makes me uncomfortable to be around, but so long as the pope and the magisterium are supportive (as they are of the Catholic Charismatic renewal movement), then why be so critical?

No need to pit traditionalists vs. charismatics. We have enough battles to fight in this world. We don’t need to fight each other over things that all fit under the one Catholic umbrella.
 
That’s right! I’ve seen a few videos of a Western Orthodox Liturgy. It’s pretty much exactly like the Latin Mass.
 
I don’t have an issue with the “Charismatic Renewal” itself, esp on a Diocesan or Church-wide level. However, I believe there are individual charismatic groups on the private, parish or regional level who do not understand all Church teachings and have a somewhat protestant theology.

However, there are also a TON of groups that do understand Catholic theology and are fine.

The real issue to me isn’t the charismatic renewal, but an apparent “hostility” against people who prefer contemplative/monastic prayer. In other words, it seems like it’s ok for charismatics to request parish prayer groups, charismatic masses, etc. But when a contemplative requests contemplative/monastic prayer groups, chant masses, etc; they are often viewed negatively.

God bless
 
I know things have changed: it is unfortunate.

Regarding changing the traditions of the Church, here’s a quote from the Papal Coronation Oath:

"I vow to change nothing of the received Tradition, and nothing thereof I have found before me guarded by my God-pleasing predecessors, to encroach upon, to alter, or to permit any innovation therein;
To the contrary: with glowing affection as her truly faithful student and successor, to safeguard reverently the passed-on good, with my whole strength and utmost effort;

To cleanse all that is in contradiction to the canonical order, should such appear; to guard the Holy Canons and Decrees of our Popes as if they were the divine ordinance of Heaven, because I am conscious of Thee, whose place I take through the Grace of God, whose Vicarship I possess with Thy support, being subject to severest accounting before Thy Divine Tribunal over all that I shall confess;

I swear to God Almighty and the Savior Jesus Christ that I will keep whatever has been revealed through Christ and His Successors and whatever the first councils and my predecessors have defined and declared."
 
Exactly. All good points.

There is only ONE true Pentecost; that of the Disciples and Mary.

It seems like a lot of people in the Charismatic movement don’t even acknowledge that anything happened at their baptism or confirmation. It’s like those sacraments are irrelevant.
 
phil19034 said:
The real issue to me isn’t the charismatic renewal, but an apparent “hostility” against people who prefer contemplative/monastic prayer.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, hostility cuts in multiple directions. It gets to a point where Group A is mad at Group B because they think Group B thinks poorly of them. Then Group B thinks poorly of Group A because they see that Group A is mad at them when they haven’t even ever done anything to Group A. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Vicious cycle. Etc.

My approach is to get off the ride and refuse to play the game. I’d rather spend my energy affirming what the Church affirms, and looking for good in what the Church promotes—whether that be charismatic prayer, or contemplative prayer, or chant or whatever.
 
I hope they’re not saying they’re irrelevant. I assumed it was more like the Samaritans in Acts.

“Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” [Acts 8:14-16]

See… sacrament of baptism, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come to them.
 
semper_catholicus said:
It seems like a lot of people in the Charismatic movement don’t even acknowledge that anything happened at their baptism or confirmation. It’s like those sacraments are irrelevant.
Click to expand...
I think we need to avoid making too many assumptions about what “a lot of people” think and do.

Certainly, if a charismatic Catholic does not acknowledge that anything happened at Baptism or Confirmation, they are objectively wrong in their theological opinion. I don’t personally know any charismatics that think that way, but I’ll grant that there are probably some people out there who think that way.

“Baptism in the Spirit” is not a sacrament. It doesn’t replace the sacraments. It’s an awakening and deepening of the gifts already received in those sacraments. Though we receive grace and the gifts of the Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation, it’s not as though the Spirit dumps all the grace on us in that moment that He’s ever going to give us. The gifts and fruits grow in us over time.

To me, that is rather self-evident. I don’t have to look far to find Catholics that have been baptized and confirmed but still have lots of room to grow in terms of manifesting the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit in the way they live their life. Honestly, I don’t have to look any further than the mirror.
 
I wish I knew why those Samaritans didn’t have the Spirit btw. It was one of the many mysteries in scripture. But we do know Apostolic authority (Peter and John) changed that for them. Perhaps they only got part of the gospel (although that’s a huge presumption on my part).

Whatever the case, Peter and John did in fact need to intervene. This is also where the story of Simon Magus comes in. Because he sees what Peter did, and wants the same power. He becomes a thorn in Peter’s side for quite some time.
 
And that is why I stay away from it like the plague…no offense intended towards anyone associated with the Charismatic Renewal.
 
Last edited:
semper_catholicus said:
I know things have changed: it is unfortunate.
Click to expand...
It is not unfortunate that traditions change. Change is a fact of the Christian life.
It is awful hard to be Christian without accepting that change happens. Obviously, not all changes are good, and not all changes are to our personal tastes.
But that is beside the point. Change happens.
Christ came that repentance and conversion (ie radical change of heart and mind) might happen.
Regarding changing the traditions of the Church, here’s a quote from the Papal Coronation Oath:

"I vow to change nothing of the received Tradition, and nothing thereof I have found before me guarded by my God-pleasing predecessors, to encroach upon, to alter, or to permit any innovation therein;
To the contrary: with glowing affection as her truly faithful student and successor, to safeguard reverently the passed-on good, with my whole strength and utmost effort;

To cleanse all that is in contradiction to the canonical order, should such appear; to guard the Holy Canons and Decrees of our Popes as if they were the divine ordinance of Heaven, because I am conscious of Thee, whose place I take through the Grace of God, whose Vicarship I possess with Thy support, being subject to severest accounting before Thy Divine Tribunal over all that I shall confess;

I swear to God Almighty and the Savior Jesus Christ that I will keep whatever has been revealed through Christ and His Successors and whatever the first councils and my predecessors have defined and declared."
Click to expand...
Do you understand the difference between (T)radition and the (t)raditions of the Church?
(t)raditions change.
(T)radition is continuous and develops
The Pope does not swear to leave traditions or disciplines unchanged.
 
Last edited:
Agreed.
And with all due respect for the forum, it does not help that a separate forum exists for “traditional Catholicism”, as if it were it’s own standalone special flavor.
 
I would just have to say that the Pope is my “Sweet Christ on Earth”, as Catherine of Siena liked to call him, and I will entrust myself to his judgment on the CCR.

The pope, John Paul II and B16, have not suppressed the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but have affirmed it at times, with qualifications, of course. There are always dangers in every movement.

I will follow the Pope’s lead.
 
Last edited:
Thank you so much for your clear and concise statement. I agree with us/them and often see the either/or statements as inciting division. I know I can be guilty too (pride I believe), but we become stronger in building each other up.
 
That doesn’t mean that nothing happens at baptism. Baptism is the first time we receive the Holy Ghost in your soul.
 
What exactly do you include in the (t)radiations category?
 
That isn’t necessarily the case either. I believed myself on first hearing the Word. For how could I even have wanted to praise God and repented, if not for the Spirit quickening my soul?

Not that my own testimony matters! But Cornelius is proof of it in the scriptures.

“While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for a few days.” - Acts 10

You can’t predict any of this, my friend. "The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Baptism is important, but it is a sign pointing to a greater Mystery. And it should be done, of course. Even our Lord himself was baptized, to do what is simply right.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top