Trads and the Charismatic "Renewal."

[Crocus]

No problem with that. Can this be considered settled, and allow going back on topic.
Sorry for my contribution to the sideline.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

We would serve our religion best if we are very careful with the facts. Especially on a public forum.
So if we refute publically that a group of people are in schism, is it really enough? Is this where the responsibility for our statement begins and ends?
Or do We also research the reason why. And then also add that to our statement.

Myth is rife in the Church, both within , as is seen here with an emerging female Altar server debate, and without , by non Catholics.

Stamping out myth and going that little bit further is one of our duties as representatives of the Church.
And quoting Wikipedia just doesn’t cut it.

Conversations don’t bear fruit when they follow the it is, it is not format.

 

[gracepoole]

We would serve our religion best if we are very careful with the facts. Especially on a public forum.
So if we refute publically that a group of people are in schism, is it really enough? Is this where the responsibility for our statement begins and ends?
Or do We also research the reason why. And then also add that to our statement.

Is quoting Church fathers enough or should we also chastise them for not providing enough context? And do you also have problems with people who claim that the SSPX is in schism when the Church has chosen not to use this language?

(BTW, I’m aware that the “loophole” to which you refer has been mentioned by others around these parts. I’m not a fan of anyone who claims the SSPX is in “de facto schism,” as the Church’s statements on the issue don’t bear this out. So loophole schmoophole.)

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Is quoting Church fathers enough or should we also chastise them for not providing enough context?

Quoting Wikipedia does not equal quoting Church fathers. Although there is the human tendency to edit both. So what do we read about a church father that is a reliable read. What source or reference would we use in a theological setting?
Would Wikipedia Church father quotes get us over the line?

And do you also have problems with people who claim that the SSPX is in schism when the Church has chosen not to use this language?

Let me ask you, do you allow misinformation about the Catholic Church and it’s members to enter the discourse. Or do you say, well the reasons are x y and z

BTW, I’m aware that the “loophole”

Excellent.

I’m not a fan of anyone who claims the SSPX is in “de facto schism,”

And whomever exactly has claimed that? I would suggest opening a factual conversation with them.

So loophole schmoophole.)

Probably not the best language to use in opening up a factual conversation, but you could try it.

 

[guanophore]

What do you think about the claim that another Pentecost is taking place?

Who is claiming any such thing?

And the fact that they prefer Latin Chant at the mass doesn’t make them “traditional” per se. It shows that they’re in line with what the Church has ordained.

It appears that your inquiry is based on more than one erroenous premises, one that traditionalists are not involved in the charismatic renewal, that “traditionalists” are in line with what the Church has ordained, and the Charismatic Renewal is not “ordained”, and perhaps the question above, which is a concept quite outside of the Charismatic Renewal (“another Pentecost”).

So actually, that’s the way it still is.

I think you are mixing apples and turnips, or something…

everyone was prayed over and then people would fall down because they received the Holy Spirit

How interesting. How did you establish that this was the reason they fell down?

I’m just saying that Gregorian Chant is to be given “pride of place” in the liturgy, as stated in the GIRM.

Do you think that there is something about this that is contrary to what occurs in the Charismatic Renewal?

Apparently, touching the person you are praying for makes the prayer stronger.

I don’t think so.

Really, Wikipedia?!

Is this what those who were present at that event claim they were “searching” for? I think not!

I am surprised that a Catholic would hesitate to encourage any other Catholic to have a deeper relationship with the Holy Spirit, participate in prayer, fellowship, and bible study.

 

[gracepoole]

Quoting Wikipedia does not equal quoting Church fathers.

But surely you are aware that Wikipedia is simply a summary of sources, so you can refer to the primary sources if you like.

Or here – is Fr. Z acceptable? http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/03/sspx-schism-or-not/

Let me ask you, do you allow misinformation about the Catholic Church and it’s members to enter the discourse. Or do you say, well the reasons are x y and z

If a claim is invalid, it’s sufficient to point out that it’s invalid. Especially in a thread in which the OP has asked commenters not to delve deeply into the issue.

And who exactly has claimed that? I would suggest opening a factual conversation with them.

If this isn’t the loophole to which you’ve referred, what is it? And if it is, you should be capable of having a conversation about it. Own it or let’s move past it.

 

[guanophore]

Well, we read history differently, don’t we?

Of course not. That is why it cannot have originated in Protestantism. It is Catholic.

Certainly the practices you have cited are not. But the Holy Spirit was breathed into the Church by Christ, and anything Protestants have that is authentic comes through the CC, just like the Scriptures. Not everything in Pentecostalism is of the Holy Spirit.

no one is “roll around on the ground speaking in gibberish and acting like a donkey and waving his hands in the air?”. Nice little snide characterization, but not what I have experienced.

No, I dont’ think it is a nice little snide characterization. It is bearing false witness against Catholic Charismatics who do not do this sort of thing. It is lumping those who enjoy the work of the Holy Spirit with practices that do not come from the Holy Spirit. It is derogatory.

No. You are confusing Catholic Charismatics with American Pentecostals.

Yes, but you are painting the wrong people with your one brush.

I doubt you will change your mind, or that any facts aside from Wikipedia will make a difference.

 

[straykat]

I’m open to this, but I’m not actually familiar with any services… I’m going to explore it more.

 

[ModernCatholic]

I took this from my response to another question but I thought it was related to this so here:
We mustn’t become obsessed by feelings. For a nicely prayed rosary or a joyfully celebrated Easter Vigil, God may reward us with warm fuzzy feelings but that is not why we pray. We don’t pray for God’s presence we pray for God’s sake. What is the point of feeling God’s presence if you only love him for that? This is a very easy way for demons to come into the life of an inexperienced believer who believes that signs and miracles and feelings are the way to the heart when that isn’t true. And you’ll find really quickly that although the initial conversion and acceptance into the Church is very charismatic (meaning overwhelmed with feelings of “love”, joy, etc. and being filled with the Holy Spirit and being very dynamic), God tests us like fire by taking away all these feelings to see if we love him for who he really is and not for the gifts of happiness he gives us. Praying to feel God’s presence is essentially stalling our spiritual life when God is really calling us to a deeper conversion of heart and a deeper relationship with him for who he really is, since God loves us just for who we are and not for what we do for him.

 

[goout]

You want me to give you examples of Catholic traditions…seriously?

 

[goout]

You are referring to the distinction between divine law and ecclesiastical law;
[/quote]

This is what I am referring to:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

 

[Reuben_J]

Exactly. All good points.

There is only ONE true Pentecost; that of the Disciples and Mary.

It seems like a lot of people in the Charismatic movement don’t even acknowledge that anything happened at their baptism or confirmation. It’s like those sacraments are irrelevant.

Where do you get this, that they do not acknowledge what’s happening in the Sacraments? That is not true at all. If anything, they have loved the Sacraments even more and know what they are for.

 

[JamalChristophr]

To answer your OP more directly, I would have to ask what exactly you mean when you use the word “reject”?

The Catholic Church has not condemned the CCR. I don’t see how then that Catholics with strongly traditional sensibilities should or can in good conscience reject them.

You don’t have to be a part of their ways of worshiping, but they are your brothers and sisters in the Catholic Faith and they deserve your utmost charity and acceptance in so far as Holy Mother Church accepts them.

 

[Reuben_J]

What a wondeful post. If only Catholics can just stop the bickering and the childishness. If we fight among ourselves, it is only the Devil who will win.

 

[Reuben_J]

To answer your OP more directly, I would have to ask what exactly you mean when you use the word “reject”?

The Catholic Church has not condemned the CCR. I don’t see how then that Catholics with strongly traditional sensibilities should or can in good conscience reject them.

You don’t have to be a part of their ways of worshiping, but they are your brothers and sisters in the Catholic Faith and they deserve your utmost charity and acceptance in so far as Holy Mother Church accepts them.

I concur whole-heartedly. The OP’s proposal will pose a question. The Church accepts the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. IF Trads reject it, are they still part of the Church or are they outside of the Church? If they are still part of the Church, are they going to be in conflict with her as they rejects what she accepts?

I think such stance is going to be very divisive.

 

[semper_catholicus]

I’m just saying that Gregorian Chant is to be given “pride of place” in the liturgy, as stated in the GIRM.

Do you think that there is something about this that is contrary to what occurs in the Charismatic Renewal?

Yes. Guitar music and rock music at mass.

 

[gracepoole]

JamalChristophr:

To answer your OP more directly, I would have to ask what exactly you mean when you use the word “reject”?

The Catholic Church has not condemned the CCR. I don’t see how then that Catholics with strongly traditional sensibilities should or can in good conscience reject them.

You don’t have to be a part of their ways of worshiping, but they are your brothers and sisters in the Catholic Faith and they deserve your utmost charity and acceptance in so far as Holy Mother Church accepts them.

I concur whole-heartedly. The OP’s proposal will pose a question. The Church accepts the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. IF Trads reject it, are they still part of the Church or are they outside of the Church? If they are still part of the Church, are they going to be in conflict with her as they rejects what she accepts?

Interesting. The Church accepts Our Lady of Lourdes but, as the USCCB states, “the Church does not make mandatory the acceptance either of the original story or of particular forms of piety springing from it.” A self-identified traditional Catholic, then, could accept the Church’s teaching on Charismatic Renewal and still not put oneself into the movement.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

But surely you are aware that Wikipedia is simply a summary of sources, so you can refer to the primary sources if you like.

Misinformation my dear. What is Wikipedia. It’s a free online encyclopedia anyone can add to and edit. It’s not robust for validity of information, nor is a blog. We must fact check.

If a claim is invalid, it’s sufficient to point out that it’s invalid

And then along comes someone to ask well then, why is it invalid. That’s human nature. The sky is not just blue, it’s blue for a few reasons,

And if it is, you should be capable of having a conversation about it. Own it or let’s move past it.

Likewise, given you now know what the loophole is.

Have a wonderful Divine Mercy weekend.

 

[semper_catholicus]

I just want to make sure I know what we’re talking about.

Regardless, it isn’t in the nature of tradition to change. I don’t see anything suggesting that it is.

 

[Shakuhachi]

It is in the nature of life to change. God’s spirit is alive.