Trads and the Charismatic "Renewal."

[Roseeurekacross]

@semper_catholicus

The CCM does not claim a second Pentecost. If it did, it would not be valid in the eyes of the Holy See. And there is a vatican based Priest who is very active on the CCM.

If anyone is claiming the CCM confesses a second Pentecost, fact check it.

It’s incorrect. A myth.

Btw here culturally, we can have didges and clapsticks at Mass, depending on the congregation and location. it’s all relative.

 

[gracepoole]

Misinformation my dear. What is Wikipedia. It’s a free online encyclopedia anyone can add to and edit. It’s not robust for validity of information, nor is a blog. We must fact check.

Then provide a source from the Church that says the SSPX is in schism. Clearly the words of a cardinal and a priest saying otherwise don’t move you. I eagerly await a credible Church authority that pronounces the SSPX schismatic.

And then along comes someone to ask well then, why is it invalid. That’s human nature. The sky is not just blue, it’s blue for a few reasons,

As you yourself noted, the OP of that particular thread asked that it not devolve into a discussion of the SSPX. Now you seem to claiming that drilling down into the topic is necessary. The contradiction here is confusing.

Likewise, given you now know what the loophole is.

I have completely tired of this game. I’m the only one of the two of us to actually address substance. Either respond directly or kindly stop.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I have completely tired of this game. I’m the only one of the two of us to actually address substance. Either respond directly or kindly stop.

I am praying for the stubborn pride we both have this Divine Mercy weekend.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I should prefer to see an arm wrestling match myself, but as you like.

 

[gracepoole]

Me too! Particularly as I’m not a devotee of the Divine Mercy devotion…

Of course, I’d settle for good ol’ fashioned genuine dialogue.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Perhaps a girls push-up contest…

Ah where’s the vegemite.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I think we are both guilty of trying one up manship. Don’t you.

Apologises to both ops.

 

[gracepoole]

I truly appreciate an opportunity to admit and denounce my own hubris. As all I’ve done here, however, is fairly beg you to engage with a topic you dangle like a carrot, there isn’t much I can denounce. More’s the pity.

Happy Octave of Easter!

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I am off to watch sound of music. The Hills are alive…

 

[dallas_r]

And nothing in any Church documents states that the Holy spirit cannot work among Protestants, as well as others.

Most Catholics come to the conclusion that there is truly no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I do not doubt God in any way, but nobody is a prophet who can reveal that the Holy Spirit wanted the charismatic movement, thus making the whole thing a matter of opinions. I find it hard to believe that the Holy Spirit would start a movement in protestantism than Catholicism due to the fact that there isn’t salvation in their church. This means no type of spirituality, even the best kind (in whoever’s opinion) cannot merit salvation.

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

— Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (Council of Florence)

 

[straykat]

The Holy Spirit isn’t “spirituality” though. The Holy Spirit is God.

And people can’t even come to the Church first without the Spirit waking them up, convicting them first. “And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation” - Jn 16:8

Saying the church comes first is kind of like putting the cart before the horse. It may work that way, if someone wandered into a church, or they were graced enough to have been born and baptized in the church… then the Spirit is there. But sometimes people don’t always make it to the church in some exacting way. They hear the Gospel outside. Then they’d eventually begin their journey, if they believe.

I hate to bring Orthodox attitudes here when this is a Catholic discussion, but they have a beautiful saying. “We don’t know what the Holy Spirit is doing outside… but we do know he’s here.”

 

[dallas_r]

The Holy Spirit isn’t “spirituality” though

We’re talking about charismatic-ism.

without the Spirit waking them up, convicting them first. “And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation” - Jn 16:8

I never said anything against this, in fact I agree.

But sometimes people don’t always make it to the church in some exacting way. They hear the Gospel outside. Then they’d eventually begin their journey, if they believe.

Yeah, I never said this doesn’t happen.

 

[straykat]

I’m so confused then.

I’m mostly replying to that quote of Pope Eugene IV. The landscape is much more complicated to his, unfortunately. The number of schismatics could be counted on one hand (like Hussites), and Catholics aren’t as obviously synonymous with the “Church” in people’s minds like they had the privilege in old Europe. It was easier to point at the “other” and condemn what they were doing. Now people, who may have repented, simply want to go to “church” (lower capital C) and not know better. So it may take longer for them to see the fullness of the “Church” (capital C).

 

[Crocus]

@(name removed by moderator) Thank you for your testimony of faith. Al glory be to God the Father through Jesus Christ our Savior.

This, is my experience of Catholics in the CCR.

 

[guanophore]

On the contrary, you have made a great number of scandalous descriptions of out of control Pentecostals, and applied them to Catholics. You have asserted (using Wikepedia!!!) that the work of the Holy Spirit did not originate in the One Church founded by Christ.

This is a true statement that applies to all new religious orders founded, all new lay ministries and movements in the Church throughout her history. Dorothy Day was equally criticized.

Certainly our conclusions are largely based upon our perceptions, which have been formed by our experiences and education (or lack of it!).

Not everyone has had your pristine rearing and spiritual experience. Some of us have been very wounded in our faith journey, and found healing in the Renewal that brought us back to the sacramental life. Criticizing any work of the Holy Spirit that accomplishes this demonstrates a despicable prejudice.

Well, there is nothing like stigmatizing and applying prejudice to the spiritual experiences of others.

Clearly in your mind, this is the case. I agree, I don’t think there is any way to resolve that. Only God can heal a person of their prejudices and judgmental attitudes.

 

[straykat]

What do you mean Pentecostal style exactly? I’ve never been to a charismatic service, but I do know Pentecostals. If you mean the “slaying” of Benny Hinn and people rolling on the floor quacking like chickens and talking in baby talk. God forbid I found this in a Catholic church. It’s madness. Even Paul warned against VALID works of the Spirit, but that looked like madness to an outsider. How much moreso if it was actual madness?

“So if the whole church meets in one place and everyone speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?” - 1 Cor 14:23

 

[Crocus]

Baltimore catechism gifts of the Holy Spirit from memory before my confirmation: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, fear of the Lord.

What’s so different about the gifts you think should not be asked for? And the fruit is (Gal 5: 22-23) love.

 

[Reuben_J]

Shalom my bro. Thank you very much for your sharing. What a blessed life and transformation you have experienced. Praise be to God

Some people here need to hear experience such as this - of those in the Charismatic Renewal. Thirty years of life in the way of the Lord, for you and your family, is not a fleeting thing nor it is an emotion at the spur of the moment.

More importantly, life in the Renewal is not just about tongue or rolling on the floor, some of which we never heard of, but it is a committed life for the Lord, as you experienced the love of God in your life - that you respond to that love and want to give it to others.

I note how you were committed to the mass and Catholic practices. Thanks God for the Covenant Community where you lived your spirituality, a life that call to committment to God and to one another. And where you could live in an authentic Christian environment especially in the world where committment to God is often frowned upon.

May God bless you and your family.

 

[straykat]

This may sound strange, maybe even troubling, but I honestly think there’s an imposter type of spirit pretending to be the Holy Spirit in some places. Remember the story of Moses and Pharaoh. Think of his first sign. The staff that turned into the serpent. Then Pharaoh called his magicians and they produced their own serpents. Moses’ serpent consumed the others, but the damage was done and it was enough to harden Pharaoh’s heart. And this is the purpose of the false spirit, in my opinion. To harden hearts and turn people away from God, instead of bring them to him.

You’ll also see these supposed charismatic preachers teaching the “Prosperity Gospel”… The Holy Spirit calls people to repentance, but these preachers are like soothesayers who always give people supposed blessings (just donate to them first! then you’ll be blessed).

I highly doubt this is allowed in Catholic churches. I couldn’t even wrap my head around the possibility.

 

[guanophore]

I cannot imagine how this would in any way be contrary to anything found in the Charismatic Renewal.

By the content of your posts, it seems clear you would like to be rid of these Catholics who have been “contaminated” with your notions of what is not Catholic.