Trads and the Charismatic "Renewal."

[Roseeurekacross]

Back in the day, Maria Von Trapp attempted to participate and decided it wasn’t for her. I’d choose to hang with her.

Of sound of music fame?

This is what she had to say

“The new Pentecost for which Pope John XXIII had prayed so fervently at the opening of the Second Vatican Council had happened to all of us right there. One noticed it most in the spirit of genuine love. This was not starry-eyed emotionalism; this was the true thing." (Maria)”

She even prayed in tongues.

 

[straykat]

Orthodox also have a Western rite (Gregory) that Traditional Catholics would recognize.

 

[yankeesouth]

I am a lifelong Catholic and I have yet to personally run across any of this in the various parishes I have lived in so I’m not sure how prevalent it is. I am aware that there are Catholics out there that are involved in this but I myself would be uncomfortable as it seems too close to protestantism. Whenever I hear the term ‘praying over’ someone I think well I have the Blessed Mother and the saints praying over me lol.

 

[straykat]

That’s a great attitude to have. Nothing in contradiction to it. The saints are part of the church…this is something Protestants/Pentecostals don’t grasp, as they have no or little consciousness of the whole tradition of saints who came before them. We have a “cloud of witnesses”/

But there’s nothing Protestant-like about the Holy Spirit. And he never left! How do you think we even have saints throughout history? The Spirit was always working. Anyone who thinks their lives were some kind of sterile, highly scholastic and repetitious, lack of spirit-filled life is just being silly.

 

[yankeesouth]

The thread is about the ‘charismatic movement’ so that is what I am referring to when I say it is too close to protestantism for me to be comfortable with it.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Back in the day, Maria Von Trapp attempted to participate and decided it wasn’t for her. I’d choose to hang with her.

Of sound of music fame?

This is what she had to say

“The new Pentecost for which Pope John XXIII had prayed so fervently at the opening of the Second Vatican Council had happened to all of us right there. One noticed it most in the spirit of genuine love. This was not starry-eyed emotionalism; this was the true thing." (Maria)”

She even prayed in tongues.

Yes, she did. She also described “Protestant-sounding expressions” as being part of the movement and her dismay at encountering them.

Note that I say all of this knowing that my Dominican aunt was present and guiding Maria through the entire experience. My godfather is the priest who led the conference. They both believed tremendously in the movement, at least for a time. I don’t. And yet we’re all Catholic. I note all of this to point out that Catholics are either called to the movement or they’re not. I note all of this, too, to say that I’m very well versed in Maria’s experience with the movement – so I thank you but any “education” you might try to offer on it is unnecessary.

 

[gracepoole]

p.s . tounges are a legitimate gift in the Church. Ask St. Augustine about it…

You mean like this quote from him?

Who in our day expects that those on whom hands are laid so that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith speak with tongues…These signs were adapted to the times. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Spirit in all tongues to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all the tongues over the earth. But that thing was done for the betokening, and it has passed away.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Well then she is being grossly misquoted.
So did she stay or leave and did her opinion change. And if so why?
From all accounts it wasn’t just one meeting or conference

Tongues hasn’t disappeared. And one doesnt require being prayed over to have tongues.

The American experience is quite curious

 

[straykat]

I’ve never experienced tongues (I think I said this earlier). I’m not sure why it is such a centerpoint when discussing gifts of the Spirit (especially among Pentecostals). That doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit isn’t in my life though. I hope he is in all believers! And if anything, we should pray to have discernment above all.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

It’s not a centrepoint. It’s the thing people get stuck on and is very disputed.

 

[straykat]

I don’t necessarily mean for you. Just Pentecostals… and outsiders.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

It would be wonderful if our CAF member who was an original at that university in 1969, was able to join in some of these discussions, This persons account of what happened there is truly something to read.

 

[straykat]

I’m uncomfortable talking about all of this, but I’m not even sure if I’ve experienced tongues or not actually. I mentioned that I related to St. Teresa’s ecstatic prayer she wrote about. When I first believed in Christ, it was like a well sprung up, and I couldn’t get this stream of holy sayings and words coming into my thoughts, and coming out of my mouth… some of it I understood as English, but it was uncontrolled my mouth couldn’t keep up. I was overwhelmed and didn’t even know what was happening to me. I finally had to sit down and settle, and it slowed down (but I was still exhilarated for having found God).

 

[ModernCatholic]

I think the Catholic Charismatic movement is doing great wonders for the Church in modern times! I personally am more traditional but I appreciate all the new converts to the Catholic Church who can be traced back to this movement. I think they just need to make sure they do not over obsess with the feeling of being filled with the Holy Spirit that they end up only looking for signs and miracles as supposed to the actual God who is there in the calm of the storm. We must love God for who he is and in all the suffering we have, not just for the warm fuzzy feelings he gives us. If not, it would be a surefire way for evil spirits to come into our lives, disguised as the holy spirit to unexperienced believers. Similar to how in the Act of Contrition we say we are sorry for our sins because we have lost heaven and gained hell but most of all because they offend God. Not because we feel sorry but because we know it is wrong. And in the Interior Castle of the soul, it talks about how at first we may be filled with deep joy, sorrow, and intense emotions when having a conversion of spirit but sooner or later God will test us in the blandness of life, the tastelessness of our faith. To the point of where it becomes a burden—a cross if you will. If we persevere even through this then we have reached the innermost part of the castle of the soul.

 

[straykat]

Oh, I was tested for sure. My journey has been an interesting one. And more solitary than it should have been. Only recently I read that early desert monastics and bishops discouraged hermits (I think I just read this at this site), because they were alone and weren’t well equipped to fight off the harassment of demons. Thank God I’ve come out of my own struggles though (but I know there are more to come too).

 

[NikosLaos]

not this. In this case it is believed that he is speaking about the gift of speaking foreign languages…that was known as the gift of tongues in that time…
on the other hand, the gift of tongues for which we are talking now was called ‘jubilation’ at the time…and here are some quotes from St. Augustine:

"What is jubilation? Joy that cannot be expressed in words. Yet the voice expresses what is conceived in the heart and cannot be explained in words. This is jubilation.

"To manifest his joy, the man does not use words that can be pronounced or understood, but bursts forth into sounds of exaltation without words.

“Where speech does not suffice… they break out into singing on vowel sounds, that through this means the feeling of the soul may be expressed, words failing to explain the heart’s conceptions.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ll have some of each please!

 

[Maximilian75]

The thing is, this is from Pentecost, the birthday of the Church. I would argue that this is very Catholic.

 

[gracepoole]

Well then she is being grossly misquoted.

I provided but one quote from her and it’s documented.

So did she stay or leave and did her opinion change. And if so why?

Perhaps it’s both.

From all accounts it wasn’t just one meeting or conference

If you’re as versed in her story as you seem to be, you know that the quote you provided earlier refers to her first experience with the Charismatic Movement, which took place at a conference at Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana. This is why I focused on this event.

Tongues hasn’t disappeared. And one doesnt require being prayed over to have tongues.

You’ll have to take that up with St. Augustine.

The American experience is quite curious

I’m going to assume that’s a compliment.

 

[gracepoole]

It’s not a centrepoint. It’s the thing people get stuck on and is very disputed.

Perhaps because it’s the most visible sign of something supernatural at work? Perhaps because it was such a massive part of John Wesley’s preaching?