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straykat
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Jesus made it pretty simple: By their fruits you shall know them.
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Crocus
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Then there is no disagreement, is there. Catholics pray/ask every day for all God’s gifts/blessings, in His will. I’m a practicing Catholic, not done yet, I can grow in God’s gifts, can’t I? Why wouldn’t I ask.
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straykat
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Bishop Schneider is unusually bold in general and I prefer to keep my distance. I’ll stick with the simple words of Christ for now. It keeps me sane.
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Reuben_J
Guest
EXcuse me for interjecting. Not sure whom you are directing this to but surely it is not to the Renewal.
The basic teaching on the Charismatic gifts (in the Renewal) is that they are given as the Spirit gives. They are not being asked nor prayed for (perhaps there are people who pray for those gifts), but ultimately it is the Spirit that decides whether to give or not to give. When they are given, it is for the up-building of the body of Christ (people). That, when one serves the Lord, the Charismatic gifts help in doing it. Perhaps that is why these Charismatic can be so effective and wonderful in their various ministries. It is not by human power but by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus it is not something for anyone to boast about, because the glory is always for God, the giver of good thing, the Holy Spirit.
However, when it is given, we are not to reject it either, which some people may do. WE have to nurture the gift for the good of God’s people, for much is given and much is expected.
Receiving the gift is not for fun, or self-glory, but to serve and for serving.
The basic teaching on the Charismatic gifts (in the Renewal) is that they are given as the Spirit gives. They are not being asked nor prayed for (perhaps there are people who pray for those gifts), but ultimately it is the Spirit that decides whether to give or not to give. When they are given, it is for the up-building of the body of Christ (people). That, when one serves the Lord, the Charismatic gifts help in doing it. Perhaps that is why these Charismatic can be so effective and wonderful in their various ministries. It is not by human power but by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus it is not something for anyone to boast about, because the glory is always for God, the giver of good thing, the Holy Spirit.
However, when it is given, we are not to reject it either, which some people may do. WE have to nurture the gift for the good of God’s people, for much is given and much is expected.
Receiving the gift is not for fun, or self-glory, but to serve and for serving.
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straykat
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Paul urged the Corinthians to ask for gifts. The same Corinthians he lambasted. These weren’t saints. But he didn’t consider tongues all that important.
“Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church.” - 1 Cor 14:1-4
“Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church.” - 1 Cor 14:1-4
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straykat
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I guess we agree then… ? I mean, I only had in mind the charisms that Acts and Paul mentioned, when he says to desire gifts. Not anything “grandiose” if you mean some of the miracles of saints throughout the centuries.
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straykat
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You make a good case here… but one difference with the Orthodox is it’s the same Liturgy, no matter the language. They didn’t lean on Greek, as the West did on Latin. I’m not sure why the Catholic church has to be an either/or thing (thoroughly traditional or thoroughly modern). It’s unfortunate.
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guanophore
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None, apparently, that fit your biased view. But you have a right to it, prejudiced and lopsided as it may be! Perhaps you are a sedavacantist, and do not believe that our current Popes since vat.2 are valid? If that is the case, certainly you would reject their prayers as valid also.
It is your perogative if you wish to deny what is written in the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;
1 Corinthians 14:1 [ Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues ] Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;
In fact, there is no need to ask God for gifts of tongues or other charisms. All of these were sealed into us at Baptism, and called forth in us at Confirmation. We already contain all that He has to bring forth in us. It is only a matter of unwrapping and putting to use His gifts.
Perhaps that can be attributes to the manner in which you say it. False witness against your neighbor is bound to make listening difficult.
It is only natural to judge others according to our own experience, limited and biased though it may be.
Not at all. I have met a significant number of bigoted Catholics here on CAF.
It appears that @(name removed by moderator) would like to be in league with the Accuser of the Brethren!
These things have nothing to do with the Charismatic Renewal.
It is your perogative if you wish to deny what is written in the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;
1 Corinthians 14:1 [ Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues ] Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;
In fact, there is no need to ask God for gifts of tongues or other charisms. All of these were sealed into us at Baptism, and called forth in us at Confirmation. We already contain all that He has to bring forth in us. It is only a matter of unwrapping and putting to use His gifts.
Perhaps that can be attributes to the manner in which you say it. False witness against your neighbor is bound to make listening difficult.
It is only natural to judge others according to our own experience, limited and biased though it may be.
Not at all. I have met a significant number of bigoted Catholics here on CAF.
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Crocus
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I’ve never heard anyone claim levitation, bilocation, walking on water, stigmata. Perhaps an exaggeration even for your Notre Dame group?
I’m sorry your friends had an uncomfortable experience. Gifts are to be at the service of the community, never for personal gain.
The description of the Charismatic Renewal is much better described by @Reuben_J above.
I’m sorry your friends had an uncomfortable experience. Gifts are to be at the service of the community, never for personal gain.
The description of the Charismatic Renewal is much better described by @Reuben_J above.
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Reuben_J
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In the Charismatic Renewal, we would categorize the gifts as mentioned by you above.
Patience, for example, is a fruit of the Holy Spirit as in Gal 5:22-23 (But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.) They are basically character, which should form a person as ones achieve spiritual maturity in Christian life. We should ask for these of course.
Tongue or gift of healing are charismatic gifts as in 1 Cor 12 (4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.)
There are nine gifts listed there in the next verses but in reality it could be more. As stated, they are for services, for the common good (of the body of Christ), not just for the person concerned.
Except for tongue, which can be used to edify oneself. Thus it can be desired but again, ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit who will give as He will.
God bless.
Patience, for example, is a fruit of the Holy Spirit as in Gal 5:22-23 (But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.) They are basically character, which should form a person as ones achieve spiritual maturity in Christian life. We should ask for these of course.
Tongue or gift of healing are charismatic gifts as in 1 Cor 12 (4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.)
There are nine gifts listed there in the next verses but in reality it could be more. As stated, they are for services, for the common good (of the body of Christ), not just for the person concerned.
Except for tongue, which can be used to edify oneself. Thus it can be desired but again, ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit who will give as He will.
God bless.
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JamalChristophr
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Mother Angelica was into it, so 'nuff said. Get’s my stamp of approval. 
(generally speaking, anyways)
(generally speaking, anyways)
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Reuben_J
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Yes, none of that. I do not understand why people attribute this to be claimed by the charismatics. In fact, even the charismatic gifts are very few and far in between. Yes, they are given but so that a Christian can serve better in a ministry.
More importantly, no Charismatic basically is fixated with these gifts, mucch less praying or clamoring for them.
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otjm
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It might help, instead of digging around in history to find something you think supports your assumptions, to read what the Church has to say on the matter now.
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 838: " "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
Footnote 323 is the Unitatis redintegratio , a document I would recommend you read.
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 838: " "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
Footnote 323 is the Unitatis redintegratio , a document I would recommend you read.
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Reuben_J
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Just want to inform you that the writer is in error in saying that the Catholic Charismatic movement believes that individual can speak in tongue without being in a corporate body. They never said that.
What is said, that speaking in tongue must have an interpreter otherwise that tongue is of no use. That is what St. Paul said.
I suggest you have to be careful in using dubious anti Catholic Charismatic Renewal movements blog for reference. They simply think what the CCR do, not what CCR actually do. Familiar, right?
What is said, that speaking in tongue must have an interpreter otherwise that tongue is of no use. That is what St. Paul said.
I suggest you have to be careful in using dubious anti Catholic Charismatic Renewal movements blog for reference. They simply think what the CCR do, not what CCR actually do. Familiar, right?
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guanophore
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Perhaps, I apologize. I shouldn’t post when I am tired and annoyed.
I have observed that your attitude and statements appear to be consistent with the Sedavacantists. Yes, you seem to be rejecting the teaching of the Church and the statement of the Popes (not necessarily this one, but those in the past who have made statements about the Charismatic Renewal).
No, to qualify as a heretic one must willfully and knowingly reject the teaching of the Church. You seem to clearly believe the abherrant things you are saying here, which means you don’t realize you are contradicting the Church.
Actually, I can only make observations on the content of your posts. There is no way that I can know the condition of your heart, and the reasons behind the bigoted statements you have made here. For all I know, you are just role playing to annoy your siblings, and you may not believe a word you are saying!!!
I don’t think that is the worst, but I do agree that you have made this false statement several times.
You have placed the focus in the wrong place, and are accusing members of the CCR of wrongdoing through your own bias. We are to seek the Giver, not the gifts.
I have observed that your attitude and statements appear to be consistent with the Sedavacantists. Yes, you seem to be rejecting the teaching of the Church and the statement of the Popes (not necessarily this one, but those in the past who have made statements about the Charismatic Renewal).
No, to qualify as a heretic one must willfully and knowingly reject the teaching of the Church. You seem to clearly believe the abherrant things you are saying here, which means you don’t realize you are contradicting the Church.
Actually, I can only make observations on the content of your posts. There is no way that I can know the condition of your heart, and the reasons behind the bigoted statements you have made here. For all I know, you are just role playing to annoy your siblings, and you may not believe a word you are saying!!!
I don’t think that is the worst, but I do agree that you have made this false statement several times.
No, it is all a strawman argument. These are not among the charisms mentioned in Scripture anywhere. It is just being used to slander and demean those who are seeking God through the Charismatic Renewal.
We should pray for him to be healed of his negative attitude, and pray for them that they will remain in, or return to the grace of Christ.
You have placed the focus in the wrong place, and are accusing members of the CCR of wrongdoing through your own bias. We are to seek the Giver, not the gifts.
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CatholicDetroit
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I was a skeptic until i went to a prayer meeting. I was prayed over and was literally swept off my feet. I went from standing to dropping to the floor.
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guanophore
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I think you are confusing this statement with the abuses of the Protestant Pentecostal movement.
Pentecost, @(name removed by moderator), belongs the CC. If any good works of the Holy Spirit spilled over into Protestantism, it is because they originated in the Catholic Church. Nothing authentic that comes from teh Holy Spirit originated outside of the CC.
It sounds to me like you are the one who has confused the two!
Any and all valid elements of spirituality and work of the Holy Spirit originate in the Catholic Church.
It is grossly biased - at least this article is, and demeans the work of the Holy Spirit in the CC. The Renewal for Catholics is based in the Papal prayers and the graces of Vatican 2.
“On what does the Church live? The Church lives on the Holy Spirit. The Church’s first need is always to live Pentecost… The Church has a need for the Holy Spirit: a basic need, an existential need, a need that cannot be satisfied with illusions, with substitutes… a universal need, a permanent need… For this reason, if we really love the Church, the main thing we must do is to foster in it an outpouring of the divine Paraclete, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit who makes us Christians and raises us to supernatural life is the true and profound principle of our interior life and of our external apostolic activity…” Pope Paul VI, General
Audience, October 12, 1966
Instead of bearing false witness against faithful Catholics who have experienced spiritual enrichment through the renewal, please consider what the Popes have to say.
Pentecost, @(name removed by moderator), belongs the CC. If any good works of the Holy Spirit spilled over into Protestantism, it is because they originated in the Catholic Church. Nothing authentic that comes from teh Holy Spirit originated outside of the CC.
It sounds to me like you are the one who has confused the two!
Any and all valid elements of spirituality and work of the Holy Spirit originate in the Catholic Church.
It is grossly biased - at least this article is, and demeans the work of the Holy Spirit in the CC. The Renewal for Catholics is based in the Papal prayers and the graces of Vatican 2.
“On what does the Church live? The Church lives on the Holy Spirit. The Church’s first need is always to live Pentecost… The Church has a need for the Holy Spirit: a basic need, an existential need, a need that cannot be satisfied with illusions, with substitutes… a universal need, a permanent need… For this reason, if we really love the Church, the main thing we must do is to foster in it an outpouring of the divine Paraclete, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit who makes us Christians and raises us to supernatural life is the true and profound principle of our interior life and of our external apostolic activity…” Pope Paul VI, General
Audience, October 12, 1966
Instead of bearing false witness against faithful Catholics who have experienced spiritual enrichment through the renewal, please consider what the Popes have to say.
It is a baseless slander designed to separate and create animosity. The devil loves to divide the faithful from one another.
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guanophore
Guest
It is not! The church dealt with this in the early centuries, and determined that a trinitarian baptism, intended to do what the Church does, is to be accepted, even if it was performed by a heretic, apostate, or non-Christian.
The Church has always taught that there is only one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and that no one is to be “rebaptized” (this is considered a sacrilege).
Such a statement defies Scripture and church teaching. Do you honestly believe that a baptized Catholic who cannot receive the Eucharist because they need to confess a mortal sin is “not in communion with the Church”?
It sounds like you are rejecting Vatican 2 and the Catechism as valid documents of the Church. Perhaps you are also a Sedavacantist?
I agree that it is important to distinguish between a “movement” that contains erroneous and heretical teachings and the authentic graces of the Holy Spirit. Certainly some of the activies mentioned here by @(name removed by moderator) do not belong in the Church. Authentic movement of the Holy Spirit to renew the lives of the faithful ALWAYS belong in the church. Not all are called to certain forms of Spirituality or practice, but then, it is not required.
This question seems to be based in a false premise that Charismatic communities are not part of the Church as a whole. There is a second false premise that, just because every Catholic everywhere is not called to this expression of spirituality, that it is somehow invalid.
What makes you think they do/did?
This question is based on another false premise, that the Holy Spirit does not move certain members of the Church to prayer.
The Church has always taught that there is only one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and that no one is to be “rebaptized” (this is considered a sacrilege).
Such a statement defies Scripture and church teaching. Do you honestly believe that a baptized Catholic who cannot receive the Eucharist because they need to confess a mortal sin is “not in communion with the Church”?
It sounds like you are rejecting Vatican 2 and the Catechism as valid documents of the Church. Perhaps you are also a Sedavacantist?
I agree that it is important to distinguish between a “movement” that contains erroneous and heretical teachings and the authentic graces of the Holy Spirit. Certainly some of the activies mentioned here by @(name removed by moderator) do not belong in the Church. Authentic movement of the Holy Spirit to renew the lives of the faithful ALWAYS belong in the church. Not all are called to certain forms of Spirituality or practice, but then, it is not required.
This question seems to be based in a false premise that Charismatic communities are not part of the Church as a whole. There is a second false premise that, just because every Catholic everywhere is not called to this expression of spirituality, that it is somehow invalid.
What makes you think they do/did?
This question is based on another false premise, that the Holy Spirit does not move certain members of the Church to prayer.
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guanophore
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The Holy Spirit does not withhold the gifts. The gifts are available to everyone, but one must be willing to unwrap their gift, and use it. Besides, though in minority, there has never been an interruption of the presence of the charismatic gifts in the Church.
I am confused by this. No one has claimed that the gift of tongues is a “corporal act of the Church”. I am not even sure what you mean by that? Do you think someone is claiming that it is one of the corporate acts of mercy?
The Church will need the charismata until Jesus comes to take His Bride to heaven. I do agree with you, though, that discernment is necessary and there are counterfeits, of which @(name removed by moderator) has provided ample examples. We need to test all things, and hold fast to what is true.
I am confused by this. No one has claimed that the gift of tongues is a “corporal act of the Church”. I am not even sure what you mean by that? Do you think someone is claiming that it is one of the corporate acts of mercy?
The Church will need the charismata until Jesus comes to take His Bride to heaven. I do agree with you, though, that discernment is necessary and there are counterfeits, of which @(name removed by moderator) has provided ample examples. We need to test all things, and hold fast to what is true.
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guanophore
Guest
It was a question, not an accusation. When people deny the teachings of Vatican 2 as valid, and statements made by Popes since Vat. 2, it raises the question.
The Sedavacantists I have met are quite proud of their theological positions, and would like all of us “Novus Ordo” Catholics to join them. Far from it being an “accusation” they would consider it a triumph!
Besides, it is not a disagreement with me, it is a disagreement with what is in the Catechism. Read the post. It is a denial that what is published in the Catechism is valid. A person who has decided to reject the teaching of the Church should have confidence, and not feel “accused”.
But thank you for the flag, it is a demonstration that the instructions that Jesus has given have not been followed. He taught that, if you have a problem with your brother, you go to your brother first before you bring another person into the conflict.
I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, as you seem to have a need to lash out about it. Sedavacantists are just as welcome here as anyone else, as far as I know. The Board is open to everyone, so long as they follow the rules.
The Sedavacantists I have met are quite proud of their theological positions, and would like all of us “Novus Ordo” Catholics to join them. Far from it being an “accusation” they would consider it a triumph!
Besides, it is not a disagreement with me, it is a disagreement with what is in the Catechism. Read the post. It is a denial that what is published in the Catechism is valid. A person who has decided to reject the teaching of the Church should have confidence, and not feel “accused”.
But thank you for the flag, it is a demonstration that the instructions that Jesus has given have not been followed. He taught that, if you have a problem with your brother, you go to your brother first before you bring another person into the conflict.
I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, as you seem to have a need to lash out about it. Sedavacantists are just as welcome here as anyone else, as far as I know. The Board is open to everyone, so long as they follow the rules.
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