Transgender, Happiness and Truth

[Nyx]

It is their decision and it doesn’t harm anyone else. As for themselves, yes, the process involves certain risks (especially certain drugs), but it is their decision that the advantages of transitioning weight more than the possible risks.

As for mutilating- it depends on your definition. Put it this way, the vast majority wouldn’t consider they’ve mutilated a body part, just that they’ve used surgery and/or certain drugs to transform it in something that better represents them.
A lot of people chose a method of sterilization- because they don’t want children and consider that a permanent birth control method is best for them.

 

[AdamP88]

What is the correct narrative for transgender folks?

Is it: this is who I am, and therefore I will only be happy when I embrace how I was born?

“Born this way” is the meme, yes?

How does this story of Stefonknee Wolscht reconcile with those who embrace the above meme?

nydailynews.com/news/world/transgender-woman-leaves-wife-7-kids-live-girl-article-1.2463795

I don’t believe so. What is the difference between a man who thinks they are female and a person who hears voices in their head?
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[GEddie]

I don’t believe so. What is the difference between a man who thinks they are female and a person who hears voices in their head?
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• 1!

 

[PRmerger]

Apples and oranges.

How so?

Isn’t this the position of the “Trans Movement”: you are who you identify as?

And you really didn’t say what “trans” you meant. You said you’d be ok with a “trans” child, but it appears you only mean “transgender” and not “transabled”.

Why is that?

 

[PRmerger]

I support the right of any person to be happy, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else and the person can lead a reasonably healthy and productive life.

Well, yeah. This is the Catholic position as well.

But the question remains: can someone be happy identifying as something that is not consonant with Truth?

And do we encourage folks to pursue their happiness, even if it’s not consonant with Truth?

 

[PRmerger]

Slow it down for a second, go on step at a time. The question is why I don’t think transgender is comparable to ‘transage’ that you insist is coming. I’ll reserve judgement about whether it’s coming until I see studies and statistics.

I think a striking reason why these two aren’t analogous is because one’s age isn’t controversial. Your age is simply how long it’s been since your birth. Sex is also (generally) uncontroversial. Even trans people (again, generally) can’t coherently argue their biological sex is different from how they were born.

One’s gender (provided we’re using the word in the same way) isn’t a simple measurement. It encompasses social, interpersonal, and cultural norms. These norms aren’t static across societies and through time. What constitutes male norms and female norms can and does change.

Of course you might argue that sex and gender cannot be decoupled. If that’s the case I think you have a problem. This seems to imply that sex and gender refer to the same thing. If that is correct, I don’t see how one can adequately explain the changing of gender norms and roles, third-gender classes that have been recognized since ancient times, or indigenous cultures that do not couple sex and gender. I think that the best explanation of these things is that sex and gender are distinct. Sex describes one’s biological sex, while gender describes the norms and roles one assumes in society.

So, if you had to summarize your position regarding “trans” issues how would it look, so that it includes transgender folks but excludes the transabled?

That is, I’m asking for something like this, for you to fill in the blank: I, Rhubarb, embrace the concept that…_____________ (as it applies to transgender issues)…

 

[PRmerger]

Transgenderism as we know it today isn’t the only example of gender fluidity.

Well, if anything, this proves too much.

Age, of course, is clearly more fluid than gender. One can look 30, act 20, feel 40, and actually be 17.

With gender there’s just the fluidity of male and female.

So, if you’re going to embrace the position that it’s fluidity that is the criterion, you’re going to have to embrace transagism.

Are you willing to do that.

 

[Rhubarb]

So, if you had to summarize your position regarding “trans” issues how would it look, so that it includes transgender folks but excludes the transabled?

That is, I’m asking for something like this, for you to fill in the blank: I, Rhubarb, embrace the concept that…_____________ (as it applies to transgender issues)…

Reducing a complex thing like gender into one line sound-bites never works.

 

[Rhubarb]

Well, if anything, this proves too much.

Age, of course, is clearly more fluid than gender. One can look 30, act 20, feel 40, and actually be 17.

With gender there’s just the fluidity of male and female.

So, if you’re going to embrace the position that it’s fluidity that is the criterion, you’re going to have to embrace transagism.

Are you willing to do that.

Transgenderism is more than ‘feeling like’ another gender. Age is clearly not more fluid than definition. Age is simply a measure of time. Gender is a complicated interaction of a person and gender roles and norms.

 

[PRmerger]

Reducing a complex thing like gender into one line sound-bites never works.

Well, it certainly sounds as if you cannot explain your position in a manner that would embrace transgender while excluding the transabled?

Is that why you cannot answer the question?

 

[PRmerger]

Transgenderism is more than ‘feeling like’ another gender. Age is clearly not more fluid than definition. Age is simply a measure of time. Gender is a complicated interaction of a person and gender roles and norms.

I am astonished to see you maintain this.

It’s pretty clear that even with a cursory search on the internet that there is much chatter about age and how its fluidity affects one’s attitude.

quora.com/How-old-is-30-years-old-Am-I-wrong-to-still-feel-like-a-young-adult

huffingtonpost.com/maria-gagliano/turning-30-feeling-old-until_b_2717726.html


theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/nov/03/turning-40-am-i-grownup

 

[Rhubarb]

I am astonished to see you maintain this.

It’s pretty clear that even with a cursory search on the internet that there is much chatter about age and how its fluidity affects one’s attitude.

quora.com/How-old-is-30-years-old-Am-I-wrong-to-still-feel-like-a-young-adult

huffingtonpost.com/maria-gagliano/turning-30-feeling-old-until_b_2717726.html

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d9/9d/b7/d99db789af7c05add063cc0a97dd008e.jpg
theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/nov/03/turning-40-am-i-grownup

Two anecdotal stories does not constitute reliable evidence. We’re not going to convince one another, I suspect we have different ideas about what “gender” amounts to.

There is evidence that, I think, supports that gender and sex are distinct. The Hijra of South Asia are one example. I haven’t come across any evidence that shows that age and some other age-thing would be distinct. There are real-life examples and theory to explain the sex/gender distinction. Perhaps there might be the same for age. But I haven’t seen it beyond cherry-picking sensationalist anecdotes.

 

[PRmerger]

Two anecdotal stories does not constitute reliable evidence. We’re not going to convince one another, I suspect we have different ideas about what “gender” amounts to.

There is evidence that, I think, supports that gender and sex are distinct. The Hijra of South Asia are one example. I haven’t come across any evidence that shows that age and some other age-thing would be distinct. There are real-life examples and theory to explain the sex/gender distinction.

I notice that you’re not addressing the issue.

You said, “I’d have no problem if my child turned out to be trans.”

It appears that you only meant “transgender”; not “trans” anything else.

Still waiting for the rationale for this.

Do you embrace the meme “You are who you identify yourself as”?

Perhaps there might be the same for age. But I haven’t seen it beyond cherry-picking sensationalist anecdotes.

100 years ago the same could have been said for transgender issues.

I could have shown you some stories of some men who identified as women and you would have dismissed it as my “cherry-picking sensationalist anecdotes”.

And my point remains. Whether it’s “cherry-picked” or not, the argument remains: how do you accept one without accepting the other?

 

[edwest2]

Lobbying for a diagnosis is not scientific:

"BOSTON — The term “gender identity disorder” has been eliminated from the new edition of the American Psychiatric Association’s official guide to classifying mental illnesses, known as the DSM-5.

Whereas previously a man who “self-identified” as a woman (or vice versa) could have been classified as mentally ill, now the DSM-5 uses the term “gender dysphoria,” which means it is only a mental illness if you’re troubled by this self-identification. Elated activists in the “LGBT” community had lobbied the APA for the change for years."

Ed

 

[Rhubarb]

I notice that you’re not addressing the issue.

You said, “I’d have no problem if my child turned out to be trans.”

It appears that you only meant “transgender”; not “trans” anything else.

Still waiting for the rationale for this.

Do you embrace the meme “You are who you identify yourself as”?

100 years ago the same could have been said for transgender issues.

I could have shown you some stories of some men who identified as women and you would have dismissed it as my “cherry-picking sensationalist anecdotes”.

And my point remains. Whether it’s “cherry-picked” or not, the argument remains: how do you accept one without accepting the other?

I will recapitulate my thoughts for you, then.

1. You’ve brought up slippery-slope examples that I believe are not analogous to transgenderism. These are reasons to dismiss your worry outright. However, just for the sake of a response I’ll try my best to answer. I believe that there is evidence to support a distinction between sex and gender that justifies accepting a transgender child (to me, of course) while not being obliged to accept some other trans-thing, such as age or species. I’m not a father, and spending thirty minutes thinking about these further examples won’t get me an answer. If my adult child says “I am really a seven year old”, I believe there is good enough reasons to respond “that’s ridiculous” in a way that one can’t/shouldn’t say to a transgender child. I’ve already explained why I believe this.
2. As for ‘you are who you identify as’. This is a very broad statement. I need context to answer this question. If one identifies as a marble counter-top, clearly I would not support this. However, an Afrikaans (Afrikaaner? Whatever you call a white South African) immigrant to the US seems to have good reasons for choosing to identify an African-American or not. Painting in broad brushes in complex subjects like this is always problematic. Identity is a difficult subject in metaphysics even without bringing in social problems like this.
3. Pointing at stories of some men identifying as women is anecdotal. However there are multiple long reaching studies and statistical research on the subject that goes beyond anecdote. I’m open to studies showing that trans-age might be a thing. But I don’t see the science, math, or argument for it yet. And that’s how I have to weigh the subject. Empirical conclusions are always tentative.

Again. The evidence seems to support a distinction between gender and sex, supporting a theory of how transgenderism works. This seems to be absent from “trans-agism.” The former is not like the latter for that reason.

 

[Bradski]

So if we have an example of trans-something that you can post to which most people would say: ‘hey, that just weird’, then you can tack any suffix onto trans- and demand that we have to explain a double standard if we think it’s ok.

I’m giving that a fail.

I’m trans-national. I feel more Australian than I do British. I’d like to be treated as Australian. I shouldn’t be expected to be treated as someone with an identity crisis. So does that mean a friend who says he is trans-material and feels like a boiled egg should be treated the same? Clearly I have genuine feelings and emotions that have developed which resulted in me feeling Australian. Clearly my friend is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

Edit: just to clarify, I don’t actually know anyone who feels like a boiled egg.

 

[Viki63]

Another example. – a girl who says she’s a cat.
I agree with Ed, the DSM-5 has gone off on the wrong track.

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[inocente]

No, it’s not. It is psychological illness. Giving into it won’t make it any better.

I agree with Ed, the DSM-5 has gone off on the wrong track.

It’s great to see so many qualified psychiatrists posting on CAF.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I support the right of any person to be happy, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else and the person can lead a reasonably healthy and productive life.

How can acting like a 6 year old girl lead a productive life? What kind of job does he/she have? How does he parent his children? This is a recipe for disaster. Truly mentally ill.

 

[LethalMouse]

It’s great to see so many qualified psychiatrists posting on CAF.

The number of people who probably have had actual courses in psychology might surprise you…

Qualified can then be subjective, many would give a degree of credit to a socialworker or therapist who is not an actual psychologist.

Even the qualified disagree about a slew of things based on certain factors and even bias. Many psychologists would say all trans are disorder and many would say it is “normal” and not so… when does one’s agreement with said qualified experts become valid/invalid. When do observations become reputable vs hogwash? How many people must you know in a circumstance before trends are accurate?

Are you prepared to answer these qualification questions with absolute truth to what is/ is not?

Stereotype vs psychological profile?

Statistics vs opinion?

How do you say what is or is not right? Why come for peer review if they only say things without knowledge or qualification?