Transgender, Happiness and Truth

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Michael1966 said:
But that does not mean ‘anything goes’ as when one person’s freedom starts to effect another person’s freedom then some restriction somewhere will be needed.
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It sounds as if you’re putting some limits on what you would embrace as “transidentification.”

Yes?

Is that a correct assessment of your view?
In short, I don’t feel a need to enforce other people to make the choices I would make.l
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Indeed. No enforcing of choices here is being endorsed.
 
PRmerger said:
It sounds as if you’re putting some limits on what you would embrace as “transidentification.” Yes? Is that a correct assessment of your view?.
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Yes, for example I’d worry about the safety and reasonableness of a strong and muscular genetic man participating in martial arts as a woman.

What we need, it seems to me, is a calm discussion or ‘negotiation’ of where the reasonable boundaries of transidentification lie. For that I think we (as society) need to recognise how people do identify in particualr ways, but also the transgender community need to feel secure in being able to accept that there are genetic traits (especially physical ones) that don’t go away with mental identification of being ‘in the wrong body’.

I’m not sure we have yet worked out how to have that calm discussion, but the good thing is that this is something that people are starting to feel able to be open about. So it is early days…

Michael
 
Michael1966 said:
Yes, for example I’d worry about the safety and reasonableness of a strong and muscular genetic man participating in martial arts as a woman.

What we need, it seems to me, is a calm discussion or ‘negotiation’ of where the reasonable boundaries of transidentification lie. For that I think we (as society) need to recognise how people do identify in particualr ways, but also the transgender community need to feel secure in being able to accept that there are genetic traits (especially physical ones) that don’t go away with mental identification of being ‘in the wrong body’.

I’m not sure we have yet worked out how to have that calm discussion, but the good thing is that this is something that people are starting to feel able to be open about. So it is early days…

Michael
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Yes, a calm, intelligent discourse is always warranted.

I do find it curious though that you seem to be reserving for yourself what you object to in others.

That is, when some folks say “This is going beyond the realm of reality and should not be endorsed” you respond with “This is simply another life choice”…

But permit yourself to determine, “This is beyond the realm of reality and should not be permitted!”

Why is that?
 
Michael1966 said:
PR, I’m not going to argue about words I haven’t said.
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Of course.

No one should argue about words he hasn’t said.

However, you need to defend the double standard you’re proposing:

“I get to decide that there are limits to this ‘trans’ meme” (for example, a muscular man wanting to compete against a woman in a martial arts competition)

and

“You cannot set limits to this ‘trans’ meme” (for example, a man who has male genitalia, male DNA deciding he would be happier living as a woman).

This is definitely NOT a judicious way to pursue discourse on this topic.
 
PRmerger said:
I am saddened that you were holier than thou, and also that your family never questioned any aspect of your Catholic faith.

The holier than thou attitude was a result of denying any feelings or attractions. I wouldn’t have acted on my feelings for guys while I was still living as a boy. That resulted in a false sense of moral superiority. My parents did finally come to the conclusion that in conscience my transition was a necessary choice, although it was out of character from their usual reasoning.
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PR. You have done it again, and worse - putting speech marks around quotes that I haven’t said (mixing my words and your interpretation and then making look like I said that mixture) is dishonest and disrespectful of good debate. You change my words and put speech marks around them.

I have no respect for that dishonest type of debate and will not involve myself in it.

Michael
 
But let me be clear - I have never said, never would say what you have attributed to me, that is “I get to decide that there are limits to this ‘trans’ meme”.

And I never said “You cannot set limits to this ‘trans’ meme” (for example, a man who has male genitalia, male DNA deciding he would be happier living as a woman)". Yiou twist and change my words and puts quotes around them. Shame on you for stooping to such dishonesty.

I don’t get to decide anything, and neither do I want to decide anything. In fact I think I was very clear that what was needed was a mature discussion of different views. I would also never describe people’s identities as ‘memes’. You made that up and tried to make it sound like I had said it. That is simply dishonest.

And now I have clarified that I shall leave it there (and I am afraid you now have the dubious honour of being the first and only person I have used the forum ‘ignore’ function for).
 
Theresa_Frances said:
The holier than thou attitude was a result of denying any feelings or attractions. I wouldn’t have acted on my feelings for guys while I was still living as a boy. That resulted in a false sense of moral superiority.
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Yes. Any “sense of moral superiority” should be avoided.
My parents did finally come to the conclusion that in conscience my transition was a necessary choice, although it was out of character from their usual reasoning.
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Do you believe that a woman who identifies as transabled should make the “necessary choice” to surgically change her body so she can live as a disabled (blind, let’s say) woman? Would you endorse a surgery to blind her?

(And let’s make this concept real. I’m not talking about some lady in Timbuktu, where you can say, “[shrug]-- She’s free to blind herself if that’s what she wants to do.” Let’s make this example about a loved one–your mother, or your sister, or your best friend.)
 
Michael1966 said:
PR. You have done it again, and worse - putting speech marks around quotes that I haven’t said (mixing my words and your interpretation and then making look like I said that mixture) is dishonest and disrespectful of good debate. You change my words and put speech marks around them.
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This would be dishonest if I quoted you.

Like this:
I have no respect for that dishonest type of debate and will not involve myself in it.
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But I will consider what you say because it’s logical and reasonable and incontrovertible.
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Michael
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The above would be dishonest, since you actually never said that.

Here is your actual quote, which I will now address:
I have no respect for that dishonest type of debate and will not involve myself in it.
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Michael
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If one’s views cannot stand up to scrutiny, then it’s a blind belief one has probably blindly embraced.

(The quotation marks I employed were to say, “As if”. As in, “This is a summary of what your position is”.)
 
PRmerger said:
Yes. Any “sense of moral superiority” should be avoided.

Do you believe that a woman who identifies as transabled should make the “necessary choice” to surgically change her body so she can live as a disabled (blind, let’s say) woman? Would you endorse a surgery to blind her?

(And let’s make this concept real. I’m not talking about some lady in Timbuktu, where you can say, “[shrug]-- She’s free to blind herself if that’s what she wants to do.” Let’s make this example about a loved one–your mother, or your sister, or your best friend.)
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I wouldn’t endorse that. Her condition would be very different than my situation. I would pray for her, help her understand the reason she felt as she did. Transitioning and gender affirmation, for me was to improve my quality of life. I am able to be a better person because of it. In my case, I am still a whole person.
 
Theresa_Frances said:
I wouldn’t endorse that. Her condition would be very different than my situation. I would pray for her, help her understand the reason she felt as she did. Transitioning and gender affirmation, for me was to improve my quality of life. I am able to be a better person because of it. In my case, I am still a whole person.
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I think that a transabled person would use the exact same explanation that you use.

“I am able to be a better person because I received surgery to blind myself and live as I identify.”

But you seem to reject that reasoning, while embracing it for yourself.

Is this not a double standard?
 
PRmerger said:
I think that a transabled person would use the exact same explanation that you use.

“I am able to be a better person because I received surgery to blind myself and live as I identify.”

But you seem to reject that reasoning, while embracing it for yourself.

Is this not a double standard?
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Gender is the basis for how we fit into society. Hormone therapy and reassignment helped to make me whole. The situation you are presenting is taking away, and physically diminishing a person.
 
Theresa_Frances said:
Gender is the basis for how we fit into society.
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Yes. It can be. It’s not the only way, but it is one of the ways.
Hormone therapy and reassignment helped to make me whole.
The situation you are presenting is taking away, and physically diminishing a person.
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Why should physically diminishing someone be a bad thing, if that’s what “makes her whole”, spiritually, emotionally, mentally?
 
Theresa_Frances said:
The situation you are presenting is taking away, and physically diminishing a person.
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Also, I think it’s not a nice thing to call someone who’s blind “physically diminished”.

Anymore than it would be to call a woman “physically diminished” because she lacks a penis.

At any rate, don’t some surgeries for transitioning from a man to a woman cause him to be “physically diminished” by removing his penis?
 
PRmerger said:
Also, I think it’s not a nice thing to call someone who’s blind “physically diminished”.

Anymore than it would be to call a woman “physically diminished” because she lacks a penis.

At any rate, don’t some surgeries for transitioning from a man to a woman cause him to be “physically diminished” by removing his penis?
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It wasn’t my intention to speak derogatively of someone who is blind. I was referring to a person intentionally harming themselves by destroying their vision. As I have already mentioned, that is very different from my situation. My parents were loving, also rigidly Catholic. My brothers and I were raised in that manner, and I never had an issue with that. When I realized I was transgender, I was scared and afraid. My parents became aware of it when I was 17. They tried to help me accept being a boy through counseling with our parish priest, the priests at my prep school, and through psychological counseling. I worked diligently to do that. Ultimately, the internal realization of being female was always there. I was recommended to a gender therapist. My parents hoped she would provide the means for me to overcome that realization. What did happen, was that my therapist suggested considering transitioning as a solution to resolving my inner turmoil. The reasoning that helped us decide to do that was based on findings that brain structure in the areas of the brain that determine gender had been found to be similar to females in persons that are otherwise physically male. As the initial steps involved with transitioning improved my emotional state, my parents became supportive and accepting of me continuing the process. An important aspect for me was that at 19, I wasn’t as physically mature as most males that age. From a physical perspective it wasn’t difficult for me to seamlessly assimilate into society as a young woman. If that had not been the case, I don’t think I would have proceeded. I am not comfortable with the concept of “trans” persons being a separate entity in a gender spectrum. I needed to be clearly female. I had reservations about the physical aspects of surgery. In my case it is more of a revision than a removing of the anatomical aspects you had mentioned. My biggest concern was, and still is, reconciling the spiritual aspect. In conscience, I feel I proceeded within moral boundaries.

Theresa
 
Theresa_Frances said:
It wasn’t my intention to speak derogatively of someone who is blind. I was referring to a person intentionally harming themselves by destroying their vision.
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I understand that, Theresa.

But surely you can see how hurtful it would be to someone who identifies as blind, and wishes to make the necessary changes for her to be happy and live as she truly sees herself…to hear you say that you think it’s fine for you (a rhetorical you, here) to have surgery to make yourself “whole” (even if it means surgically removing one’s penis) but object to her doing what she needs to do to make herself “whole”.

Can you see where she would be really, really upset that you are reserving for yourself something that she (let’s say she’s your sister) feels is necessary for her happiness?
 
Theresa_Frances said:
It wasn’t my intention to speak derogatively of someone who is blind. I was referring to a person intentionally harming themselves by destroying their vision. As I have already mentioned, that is very different from my situation. My parents were loving, also rigidly Catholic. My brothers and I were raised in that manner, and I never had an issue with that. When I realized I was transgender, I was scared and afraid. My parents became aware of it when I was 17. They tried to help me accept being a boy through counseling with our parish priest, the priests at my prep school, and through psychological counseling. I worked diligently to do that. Ultimately, the internal realization of being female was always there. I was recommended to a gender therapist. My parents hoped she would provide the means for me to overcome that realization. What did happen, was that my therapist suggested considering transitioning as a solution to resolving my inner turmoil. The reasoning that helped us decide to do that was based on findings that brain structure in the areas of the brain that determine gender had been found to be similar to females in persons that are otherwise physically male. As the initial steps involved with transitioning improved my emotional state, my parents became supportive and accepting of me continuing the process. An important aspect for me was that at 19, I wasn’t as physically mature as most males that age. From a physical perspective it wasn’t difficult for me to seamlessly assimilate into society as a young woman. If that had not been the case, I don’t think I would have proceeded. I am not comfortable with the concept of “trans” persons being a separate entity in a gender spectrum. I needed to be clearly female. I had reservations about the physical aspects of surgery. In my case it is more of a revision than a removing of the anatomical aspects you had mentioned. My biggest concern was, and still is, reconciling the spiritual aspect. In conscience, I feel I proceeded within moral boundaries.

Theresa
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I am going to take your response and apply it to this hypothetical transabled person, and can you tell me how you would respond to her argument?
When I realized I was -]transgender,/-] transabled, I was scared and afraid. My parents became aware of it when I was 17. They tried to help me accept being -]a boy/-] visually intact through counseling with our parish priest, the priests at my prep school, and through psychological counseling. I worked diligently to do that. Ultimately, the internal realization of being -]female/-] blind was always there. I was recommended to a -]gender /-] visual therapist. My parents hoped she would provide the means for me to overcome that realization. What did happen, was that my therapist suggested considering transitioning as a solution to resolving my inner turmoil. The reasoning that helped us decide to do that was based on findings that brain structure in the areas of the brain that determine -]gender /-] vision had been found to be similar to-] females in persons that are otherwise physically male/-] blind folks that are otherwise physically intact. As the initial steps involved with transitioning improved my emotional state, my parents became supportive and accepting of me continuing the process. An important aspect for me was that at 19, I wasn’t as -]physically /-] optically mature as most -]males/-] visually intact people that age. From a physical perspective it wasn’t difficult for me to seamlessly assimilate into society as a -]young woman/-] blind woman… If that had not been the case, I don’t think I would have proceeded. I am not comfortable with the concept of “trans” persons being a separate entity in a -]gender /-] abled spectrum. I needed to be clearly -]female/-] blind. I had reservations about the physical aspects of surgery. In my case it is more of a revision than a removing of the anatomical aspects you had mentioned
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Imagine this is your sister, your best friend, your cousin…who wants to blind herself.

And she presents the above to you.

What would you say?

(NB: Imagine there is such a thing as a “visual therapist”.)
 
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