Transgender student 'happy' with support since girls' washroom ban

[Rin]

It’s been happening for years.

No, it has not. Sex reassignment surgery has never been given to an eight-years old*, and neither has hormone replacement therapy. In the case of the former, no surgeon would let a child that age make such a decision, and as for the latter, it would not make sense, since it is before the time of puberty.

What has been happening, is parents being recommended to let children act and dress as comes natural to them, and if the condition persists until puberty, children have been given drugs to postpone puberty. But surgery is *never *presented an option until the child is 18 years old (there has been one exception to this in the history of mankind, and even then, the patient was in her mid-teens), and hormone replacement therapy is not an option until the child is around 15 years old.

• That said, in the case of intersex children (inaccurately often called “hermaphrodites”), surgeons have performed reconstructive surgery, also called sex assignment surgery, sometimes at very young ages. This has been done to “enable them to live a normal life”, sometimes with dire consequence, since the doctors guessed their gender wrongly - generally the decision was made purely out of practical considerations, as in which “direction” would be the easiest surgically. Thankfully, this practice seems to be coming to an end, largely because the need for “normalcy” has been decreasing, especially when it comes to medical decisions.

 

[punisherthunder]

No, it has not. Sex reassignment surgery has never been given to an eight-years old*, and neither has hormone replacement therapy. In the case of the former, no surgeon would let a child that age make such a decision, and as for the latter, it would not make sense, since it is before the time of puberty.

What has been happening, is parents being recommended to let children act and dress as comes natural to them, and if the condition persists until puberty, children have been given drugs to postpone puberty. But surgery is *never *presented an option until the child is 18 years old (there has been one exception to this in the history of mankind, and even then, the patient was in her mid-teens), and hormone replacement therapy is not an option until the child is around 15 years old.

• That said, in the case of intersex children (inaccurately often called “hermaphrodites”), surgeons have performed reconstructive surgery, also called sex assignment surgery, sometimes at very young ages. This has been done to “enable them to live a normal life”, sometimes with dire consequence, since the doctors guessed their gender wrongly - generally the decision was made purely out of practical considerations, as in which “direction” would be the easiest surgically. Thankfully, this practice seems to be coming to an end, largely because the need for “normalcy” has been decreasing, especially when it comes to medical decisions.

*1. It has been happening for years. The reason not a lot of people know about this is because forced transgenderism and queer theory wasn’t forced on the general/unsuspecting public until the last couple of years.

1. *Just because it’s a child, is not a proper excuse to condone the behavior of the parents and school over such incessant coddling. This type of behavior must be stopped, if not, what happens when someone is raped or worse? Who is to blame then? The parents? Doctors? The school system? Nobody has any responsibility anymore.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

1. It has been happening for years. The reason not a lot of people know about this is because forced transgenderism and queer theory wasn’t forced on the general/unsuspecting public until the last couple of years.

Please explain what “forced transgenderism” and “queer theory” are.

1. Just because it’s a child, is not a proper excuse to condone the behavior of the parents and school over such incessant coddling. This type of behavior must be stopped, if not, what happens when someone is raped or worse? Who is to blame then? The parents? Doctors? The school system? Nobody has any responsibility anymore.

Please explain how allowing trans girls to dress and behave like girls is going to result in someone getting raped.

 

[DaisymaeD]

One of my pediatric patients is a girl with gender dysphoria. IE she wants to be a boy. She uses the bathroom in te nurse’s office and the staff do not refer to her by any pronouns at all. (Neither “she” nor “he”)

It appears the parents are somewhat at a loss–they don’t want to encourage this behavior, but they want to give her a safe space to work this all out. She’s young enough and hasn’t reached puberty, so she can “pass” for a boy…sort of. Until she starts talking about fashions and hairstyles.

 

[Rin]

1. It has been happening for years. The reason not a lot of people know about this is because forced transgenderism and queer theory wasn’t forced on the general/unsuspecting public until the last couple of years.

Ehm no, it has not been happening for years. If you want to challenge this, then bring sources.

If you can’t bring sources on the table, then I’m afraid your claims look like conspiracy theories, and far-fetched ones at that. “Forced” transgenderism? As if people are forcibly transitioned? Sorry, not happening.

 

[jediliz]

I am getting so tired of these cases. This is a CONFUSED little BOY…not a girl. This little BOY was born a boy…and will always be a boy…what happens when this BOY hits puberty? Or do they already have HIM on anti hormone drugs so HE doesn’t have natural MALE puberty? What happens when HE is in HIS teens and starts growing facial hair? or as I said, is HE on drugs to prevent this?

And why do the parents always seem to encourage this behavior?

This is NOT normal.

 

[estesbob]

I am getting so tired of these cases. This is a CONFUSED little BOY…not a girl. This little BOY was born a boy…and will always be a boy…what happens when this BOY hits puberty? Or do they already have HIM on anti hormone drugs so HE doesn’t have natural MALE puberty? What happens when HE is in HIS teens and starts growing facial hair? or as I said, is HE on drugs to prevent this?

And why do the parents always seem to encourage this behavior?

This is NOT normal.

Most parents don’t.When little Johnny says he’s is a girl they tell him"no you are not" and Don’t dress him like a girl nor demand the school help them indulge Johnnys fantasy.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Nowadays you can “claim” to be of a different gender and have your paperwork changed accordingly.

You can similarly express dissatisfaction at the name your parents chose for you and have that changed at any time.

You can also be adopted and hence change your parents.

There is only one other pertinent piece of information on your birth certificate, and that is date of birth. I would like to have my date of birth changed in order to be able to stop working and draw my pension earlier. I wrote to my town hall and they said I can’t. So apprently it’s not Ok to discriminate on grounds of gender but its perfectly OK to discrimate people on age grounds. I would really like to take this up as a lawsuit.

I would have thought being able to stop working is a more valuable right than to be able to use the bathroom of your choice. So where are the Civil Rights folks over this?

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Most parents don’t.When little Johnny says he’s is a girl they tell him"no you are not" and Don’t dress him like a girl nor demand the school help them indulge Johnnys fantasy.

This.

If he claims to be a tiger, they don’t leave him in the zoo either.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I am getting so tired of these cases. This is a CONFUSED little BOY…not a girl. This little BOY was born a boy…and will always be a boy…what happens when this BOY hits puberty? Or do they already have HIM on anti hormone drugs so HE doesn’t have natural MALE puberty? What happens when HE is in HIS teens and starts growing facial hair? or as I said, is HE on drugs to prevent this?

And why do the parents always seem to encourage this behavior?

This is NOT normal.

They’ll likely put him on beta blockers to delay puberty and then when the child reaches a sufficient age for them to be able to legally allowed to begin HRT they’ll do that.

Most parents don’t.When little Johnny says he’s is a girl they tell him"no you are not" and Don’t dress him like a girl nor demand the school help them indulge Johnnys fantasy.

You forgot about the part of beating Johnny if he obstinately persists in his assertions until you break.

Nowadays you can “claim” to be of a different gender and have your paperwork changed accordingly.

You can similarly express dissatisfaction at the name your parents chose for you and have that changed at any time.

You can also be adopted and hence change your parents.

There is only one other pertinent piece of information on your birth certificate, and that is date of birth. I would like to have my date of birth changed in order to be able to stop working and draw my pension earlier. I wrote to my town hall and they said I can’t. So apprently it’s not Ok to discriminate on grounds of gender but its perfectly OK to discrimate people on age grounds. I would really like to take this up as a lawsuit.

I would have thought being able to stop working is a more valuable right than to be able to use the bathroom of your choice. So where are the Civil Rights folks over this?

People have been doing that stuff since before birth certificates were around, see One-eyed Charlie for example.
You’ve been able to change your name since forever, how you did it historically was you simply picked a name and started using it, no need for paperwork.

 

[Razanir]

However, while gender dysphoria is often temporary in young (pre-pubertal) children,

So if it’s often temporary, why do people always act like it’s permanent? That’s my initial reaction to any story like this. We don’t even let these kids cross the street on their own, and yet they’re old enough to decide what gender they are? At that age, most of the gender differences are things like whether it’s socially acceptable to wear a dress or what color got arbitrarily assigned to you.

once it persists into early puberty (when such treatment is generally started), it is extraordinarily rare for a child to “revert”, regardless of whether they receive any form of treatment. If the condition persists until they’re around 14 to 15 years old, such reversal is virtually nonexistent.

Hi, kids! I’m sort of an example of it reverting! At any rate, I’m an example of not feeling the need for reassignment. Since early high school about, I’ll admit to being interested in girlier stuff. And to be honest, if technology advanced far enough to make the new parts work (and if the Church approved such a transition), I might consider it. But unlike the left, I don’t feel an obligation to do so. I’m content being that guy who’s fine with it if he ever winds up in a skirt. For example, I’m going for Halloween as a character from a pseudo-Medieval setting. So I’m using a skirt to simulate a tunic. Or last year at dorm government, I willingly wore a skirt for pants theme, since we always loosely define “pants” to mean “anything that means you aren’t just going in your underwear”.

• That said, in the case of intersex children (inaccurately often called “hermaphrodites”), surgeons have performed reconstructive surgery, also called sex assignment surgery, sometimes at very young ages. This has been done to “enable them to live a normal life”, sometimes with dire consequence, since the doctors guessed their gender wrongly - generally the decision was made purely out of practical considerations, as in which “direction” would be the easiest surgically. Thankfully, this practice seems to be coming to an end, largely because the need for “normalcy” has been decreasing, especially when it comes to medical decisions.

Interesting side question. Are sex reassignment surgeries considered moral if the person is an incorrectly assigned hermaphrodite?

 

[Rin]

So if it’s often temporary, why do people always act like it’s permanent? That’s my initial reaction to any story like this. We don’t even let these kids cross the street on their own, and yet they’re old enough to decide what gender they are? At that age, most of the gender differences are things like whether it’s socially acceptable to wear a dress or what color got arbitrarily assigned to you.

The thing is that people don’t always act like it’s permanent. Of course, if your only source knowledge of the phenomenon is MSM, then I can understand your impression. However, those cases are usually preceded by years of counselling by professionals, and where permanence has been established. No qualified therapist would recommend social transition on a whim.

And again, it needs to be stressed that before puberty, no medical treatment that affects a child’s physiology is provided. Until the age of 14-16, only fully reversible puberty blockers are provided. In most of the stories about transitioned children you see in the media, nothing irreversable has been done.

However, your view that gender differences in that age are mostly about superficial stuff like clothes or favorite color, is mistaken. In severe cases, myself included, the child experiences a disconnect from their bodies from a very young age. But of course, this accelerates in puberty.

Hi, kids! I’m sort of an example of it reverting! At any rate, I’m an example of not feeling the need for reassignment. Since early high school about, I’ll admit to being interested in girlier stuff. And to be honest, if technology advanced far enough to make the new parts work (and if the Church approved such a transition), I might consider it. But unlike the left, I don’t feel an obligation to do so.

Straw man. “The left” do not “feel an obligation” to “do so”. Neither are those who defend proper medical treatment necessarily part of “the left”. I most certainly am not, though I nowadays despise “the right” as much as I despise “the left”.

I prefer not voting in elections, but I have voted everything from center to right (though I regret the latter) in the past. I have never voted for a left-leaning party, and I never will. That said, I am fortunate enough not to live in the United States, where I would refuse to vote under any circumstances.

Oh, and I also do not feel an “obligation” to go through with any treatment. I do however, acutely, feel a need to do so. It has been a lifesaving measure for me. I have yet to see someone posing an “obligation” to go through with treatment; sometimes strong recommendations based on personal experience, but it’s in no one’s interest that people go through with treatment without it truly being needed. Therefore, cases of people ending up with severe problems or worse from being denied treatment, are vastly more common than people regretting treatment.

I’m content being that guy who’s fine with it if he ever winds up in a skirt. For example, I’m going for Halloween as a character from a pseudo-Medieval setting. So I’m using a skirt to simulate a tunic. Or last year at dorm government, I willingly wore a skirt for pants theme, since we always loosely define “pants” to mean “anything that means you aren’t just going in your underwear”.

Again, you’re focusing on superficial traits. Such traits may be indicative of a gender identity issue, but they are not sufficient to make a diagnosis; gender dysphoria is not merely about “winding up in a skirt”. It is about finding yourself holding a kitchen knife, trying to build up the courage to castrate yourself, after years of being tormented by your gonads producing the wrong hormones. It is a real condition, with demonstrable neurological causes, and it is disabling as well as possibly fatal.

Interesting side question. Are sex reassignment surgeries considered moral if the person is an incorrectly assigned hermaphrodite?

Yes. Women in these situations have in such cases also been allowed to marry if the Church - I will however admit that my knowledge of this is anecdotal.

That happened in some cases of transgenderism too, until the document which put a prohibition on changing baptism records was issued. I have not heard anything about those marriages being declared invalid.

Generally, the morality of surgical procedures is established in CCC 2297 (my emphasis):

“Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

Ask any doctor specialized in this, and they would inform you that the purpose of SRS is strictly therapeutical. Patients are heavily screened, and there are numerous safeguards to make sure patients are not allowed to access HRT without truly needing it.

Additionally, it should be noted that the focus of this paragraph in the CCC is torture and terrorism, not medicine. It helps nuance the interpretation.

Lastly, my interpretation here is consistent with the abovementioned document, which placed restrictions on changing baptism records and on admission to Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders, but also confirmed that SRS may be moral in cases where it may alleviate the patient’s turmoil. Those who claim that Catholic doctrine is clear on this, are conveniently ignoring several factors that don’t fit their ideology.

 

[savedbygrace71]

cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

Please read. Johns Hopkins was formerly a pioneer of the sex change operation and they have discontinued all their surgeries. They now classify the concept of gender confusion as a mental disorder.

The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”

“And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs,” said Dr. McHugh.

 

[Rin]

cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

Please read. Johns Hopkins was formerly a pioneer of the sex change operation and they have discontinued all their surgeries. They now classify the concept of gender confusion as a mental disorder.

McHugh, who himself readily admits this discontinuation was his career goal since before he even started, has consistently misrepresented research (a prime example being the article to which you linked), manipulated research (for example by withdrawing support from research projects that might have conflicted with his ideology), and not least deviated from scientific principles through following his ideological bias rather than empiric evidence.

He is completely discredited within this field, and it has long since been established that his premises for shutting down the gender clinic were fallacious. If anything, the events at John Hopkins demonstrate the damage ideology can do to scientific research and medical treatment.

That said, few tears where shed over the discontinuation of the gender clinic at John Hopkins, since the place was infamous for their humiliating and degrading treatment of gender dysphoric patients. Thankfully, McHugh’s ideas have not gained foothold in the wider medical community.

However, the specifics of the article you linked have been dissected by me on this forum several times now, and I do not have the patience to do it again. Look up earlier threads if you want more details.

 

[Razanir]

stuff

There is more to it than I actually mentioned. Reassignment was brought up as a possibility before. Like I said, I don’t want to go that route because it would feel fake, partly because my body would not function naturally. But if that became a medical possibility and the Church approved of such an action, I might consider it. My focus on tertiary characteristics was partly because the discussion also had to do with gender roles in children, where differences are not as large as after puberty.

I suppose I’m not as dysphoric as some people, because I wouldn’t want to change anything with current technology. And to be fair, probably not even if the new parts would be functional. But that doesn’t change the fact that at times I can feel like the male equivalent of a tomboy. That doesn’t change the fact that I play as a girl decently often in video games. That doesn’t change the fact that I know what name I would take, down to even things like a middle name and a preferred nickname.

 

[Rin]

There is more to it than I actually mentioned. Reassignment was brought up as a possibility before. Like I said, I don’t want to go that route because it would feel fake, partly because my body would not function naturally. But if that became a medical possibility and the Church approved of such an action, I might consider it. My focus on tertiary characteristics was partly because the discussion also had to do with gender roles in children, where differences are not as large as after puberty.

I suppose I’m not as dysphoric as some people, because I wouldn’t want to change anything with current technology. And to be fair, probably not even if the new parts would be functional. But that doesn’t change the fact that at times I can feel like the male equivalent of a tomboy. That doesn’t change the fact that I play as a girl decently often in video games. That doesn’t change the fact that I know what name I would take, down to even things like a middle name and a preferred nickname.

Firstly, I am truly happy that you seem to be at peace with your choice.

My issues were primarily with your assertion that people always act like it (and by that I understood you as talking about childhood gender dysphoria, given the context) is always permanent, and the (implicit, to be fair) assertion that people who are in favor of transition treat it as an obligation, in addition to your labeling of the same group as belonging to the left. Those claims are not based on reality.

But I have no issue with what you wrote in this post; based on how you describe your issues, I would say your choice is the right one. I believe in these treatments only as a last resort (including when there is good reason to believe that withholding treatment would lead to future dysfunction; delaying the inevitable can have very detrimental effects). This is a spectrum - my assertion that HRT is the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria, does of course presume that the dysphoria is in need for medical treatment, in the sense that the patient is not able to function in their current state. This is common thinking in all medicine, except of course where treatment is needed to prevent future worsening of a condition.

Whether one classifies dysphoria that is not in dire need for treatment as subclinical, as a different diagnosis or some other way is not really that important. I like the current spectrum diagnostic model, where clinical choices are made based on individual presentation rather than a cookie-cutter procedure like in earlier decades (and sadly, in some countries, still, especially in public gender clinics paid for by welfare).

I’ll avoid writing another essay, though I wish you the best of luck in every way!

 

[RGCheek]

The thing is that people don’t always act like it’s permanent. Of course, if your only source knowledge of the phenomenon is MSM, then I can understand your impression. However, those cases are usually preceded by years of counselling by professionals, and where permanence has been established. No qualified therapist would recommend social transition on a whim.

And again, it needs to be stressed that before puberty, no medical treatment that affects a child’s physiology is provided. Until the age of 14-16, only fully reversible puberty blockers are provided. In most of the stories about transitioned children you see in the media, nothing irreversable has been done.

However, your view that gender differences in that age are mostly about superficial stuff like clothes or favorite color, is mistaken. In severe cases, myself included, the child experiences a disconnect from their bodies from a very young age. But of course, this accelerates in puberty.

Straw man. “The left” do not “feel an obligation” to “do so”. Neither are those who defend proper medical treatment necessarily part of “the left”. I most certainly am not, though I nowadays despise “the right” as much as I despise “the left”.

I prefer not voting in elections, but I have voted everything from center to right (though I regret the latter) in the past. I have never voted for a left-leaning party, and I never will. That said, I am fortunate enough not to live in the United States, where I would refuse to vote under any circumstances.

Oh, and I also do not feel an “obligation” to go through with any treatment. I do however, acutely, feel a need to do so. It has been a lifesaving measure for me. I have yet to see someone posing an “obligation” to go through with treatment; sometimes strong recommendations based on personal experience, but it’s in no one’s interest that people go through with treatment without it truly being needed. Therefore, cases of people ending up with severe problems or worse from being denied treatment, are vastly more common than people regretting treatment.

Again, you’re focusing on superficial traits. Such traits may be indicative of a gender identity issue, but they are not sufficient to make a diagnosis; gender dysphoria is not merely about “winding up in a skirt”. It is about finding yourself holding a kitchen knife, trying to build up the courage to castrate yourself, after years of being tormented by your gonads producing the wrong hormones. It is a real condition, with demonstrable neurological causes, and it is disabling as well as possibly fatal.

Yes. Women in these situations have in such cases also been allowed to marry if the Church - I will however admit that my knowledge of this is anecdotal.

That happened in some cases of transgenderism too, until the document which put a prohibition on changing baptism records was issued. I have not heard anything about those marriages being declared invalid.

Generally, the morality of surgical procedures is established in CCC 2297 (my emphasis):

“Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

Ask any doctor specialized in this, and they would inform you that the purpose of SRS is strictly therapeutical. Patients are heavily screened, and there are numerous safeguards to make sure patients are not allowed to access HRT without truly needing it.

Additionally, it should be noted that the focus of this paragraph in the CCC is torture and terrorism, not medicine. It helps nuance the interpretation.

Lastly, my interpretation here is consistent with the abovementioned document, which placed restrictions on changing baptism records and on admission to Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders, but also confirmed that SRS may be moral in cases where it may alleviate the patient’s turmoil. Those who claim that Catholic doctrine is clear on this, are conveniently ignoring several factors that don’t fit their ideology.

So if little Bobby thinks he was born an internal lesbian, does he go to the boys room or the girls room?

 

[Rin]

So if little Bobby thinks he was born an internal lesbian, does he go to the boys room or the girls room?

If little Bobby presents with gender identity issues, I hope the parents will care for their child, seek a qualified therapist specialized on childhood gender dysphoria, and follow his or her advice.

And if little Bobby’s dysphoria is established to be persistent and severe, then yes, she would use the girls room if allowed to transition socially. Such a decision would under normal circumstances take years - and it should take years.

Given the qualifier ‘little’ in your question, I doubt we would know whether she is straight or lesbian yet

 

[MarcoPolo]

On what grounds is it argued any specific person has a “right” to use this or that or a special bathroom? Is it based on whether or not an individual is “comfortable” in one facility or another? If so, I want my own private bathroom.

 

[Rin]

On what grounds is it argued any specific person has a “right” to use this or that or a special bathroom? Is it based on whether or not an individual is “comfortable” in one facility or another? If so, I want my own private bathroom.

It’s based on the fact that trans people, especially trans women, are in significant danger of violence, rape and even murder if forced to use the bathroom of their assigned-at-birth sex. This is both due to the danger any woman would be subjected to by entering a male restroom, and additionally, for a trans woman who passes, being seen entering a male restroom would effectively out her, which again can lead to dangerous situations.

Trans men may not be attacked as often in bathrooms, but if a bearded, musculous man enters a female bathroom, I suspect guards would be called, regardless of the man’s genitalia. Forcing transitioned people to use the bathroom corresponding to their genitalia is blatantly absurd, for this exact reason; genitalia are generally not visible to the public. External appearance is the only sensible criterion.

Honestly, this should be easy and completely uncontroversial. If a person looks female, she should use the ladies room. If he looks male, he should use the male room. There’s no need to inspect genitalia. And not least, people should mind their own business.

I have only seen this being fussed over in the US - the fact that you need laws to protect a group of people, who pose no threat to others, from humiliation and worse when using the restroom, is telling. American culture has some growing up to do.