Transgender student 'happy' with support since girls' washroom ban

[Paleocon]

The thing is that people don’t always act like it’s permanent. Of course, if your only source knowledge of the phenomenon is MSM, then I can understand your impression. However, those cases are usually preceded by years of counselling by professionals, and where permanence has been established. No qualified therapist would recommend social transition on a whim.

And again, it needs to be stressed that before puberty, no medical treatment that affects a child’s physiology is provided. Until the age of 14-16, only fully reversible puberty blockers are provided. In most of the stories about transitioned children you see in the media, nothing irreversable has been done.

However, your view that gender differences in that age are mostly about superficial stuff like clothes or favorite color, is mistaken. In severe cases, myself included, the child experiences a disconnect from their bodies from a very young age. But of course, this accelerates in puberty.

Straw man. “The left” do not “feel an obligation” to “do so”. Neither are those who defend proper medical treatment necessarily part of “the left”. I most certainly am not, though I nowadays despise “the right” as much as I despise “the left”.

I prefer not voting in elections, but I have voted everything from center to right (though I regret the latter) in the past. I have never voted for a left-leaning party, and I never will. That said, I am fortunate enough not to live in the United States, where I would refuse to vote under any circumstances.

Oh, and I also do not feel an “obligation” to go through with any treatment. I do however, acutely, feel a need to do so. It has been a lifesaving measure for me. I have yet to see someone posing an “obligation” to go through with treatment; sometimes strong recommendations based on personal experience, but it’s in no one’s interest that people go through with treatment without it truly being needed. Therefore, cases of people ending up with severe problems or worse from being denied treatment, are vastly more common than people regretting treatment.

Again, you’re focusing on superficial traits. Such traits may be indicative of a gender identity issue, but they are not sufficient to make a diagnosis; gender dysphoria is not merely about “winding up in a skirt”. It is about finding yourself holding a kitchen knife, trying to build up the courage to castrate yourself, after years of being tormented by your gonads producing the wrong hormones. It is a real condition, with demonstrable neurological causes, and it is disabling as well as possibly fatal.

Yes. Women in these situations have in such cases also been allowed to marry if the Church - I will however admit that my knowledge of this is anecdotal.

That happened in some cases of transgenderism too, until the document which put a prohibition on changing baptism records was issued. I have not heard anything about those marriages being declared invalid.

Generally, the morality of surgical procedures is established in CCC 2297 (my emphasis):

“Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

Ask any doctor specialized in this, and they would inform you that the purpose of SRS is strictly therapeutical. Patients are heavily screened, and there are numerous safeguards to make sure patients are not allowed to access HRT without truly needing it.

Additionally, it should be noted that the focus of this paragraph in the CCC is torture and terrorism, not medicine. It helps nuance the interpretation.

Lastly, my interpretation here is consistent with the abovementioned document, which placed restrictions on changing baptism records and on admission to Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders, but also confirmed that SRS may be moral in cases where it may alleviate the patient’s turmoil. Those who claim that Catholic doctrine is clear on this, are conveniently ignoring several factors that don’t fit their ideology.

External pseudohermaphrodites are not capable of sexual intercourse.

 

[Rin]

External pseudohermaphrodites are not capable of sexual intercourse.

And?

There are more intersex conditions that makes gender determination difficult or impossible than that, additionally, there is surgery to make them capable. Therefore, if determined to be female, they could fulfil the requirement of potency (phalloplasty sadly can’t achieve this yet).

 

[Paleocon]

And?

There are more intersex conditions that makes gender determination difficult or impossible than that, additionally, there is surgery to make them capable. Therefore, if determined to be female, they could fulfil the requirement of potency (phalloplasty sadly can’t achieve this yet).

If someone has a fully male genitalia, then he is a man. And vice versa.

Moreover, even psychologically, I’m not aware of any cases where a person was genetically male, externally female, and yet identified as male (or vice versa).

 

[RGCheek]

If someone has a fully male genitalia, then he is a man. And vice versa.

Moreover, even psychologically, I’m not aware of any cases where a person was genetically male, externally female, and yet identified as male (or vice versa).

Agreed.

It is amazing that some think that people cant change their sexual orientation that ‘God’ put there, but then find no problem at all with changing a persons gender.

 

[RGCheek]

If little Bobby presents with gender identity issues, I hope the parents will care for their child, seek a qualified therapist specialized on childhood gender dysphoria, and follow his or her advice.

And if little Bobby’s dysphoria is established to be persistent and severe, then yes, she would use the girls room if allowed to transition socially. Such a decision would under normal circumstances take years - and it should take years.

Given the qualifier ‘little’ in your question, I doubt we would know whether she is straight or lesbian yet

Why not? If little Bobby can know enough that he is a she to get permanent surgical alterations (aka maiming) done, then why cant Bobby know his she side is also lesbian?

And what of the rights of the little girls who would have to share their bathroom with a snooping little boy who thinks he is a lesbian?

Why are we expected to move heaven and Earth to accommodate a little confused boy and force the normal girls to just deal with it?

 

[Rin]

I’m unsubscribing from this thread; I have responded to (other people posing) the recently mad claims ad nauseam, and I’m sick of it. In my experience those who adhere to the conservative ideology will not really consider any argument made, and just continue repeating the same, oversimplified claims. Debate with them is futile. I am infinitely happy they have not been able to dictate laws and treatment guidelines. If they did, they would have blood on their hands.

 

[Paleocon]

I’m unsubscribing from this thread; I have responded to (other people posing) the recently mad claims ad nauseam, and I’m sick of it. In my experience those who adhere to the conservative ideology will not really consider any argument made, and just continue repeating the same, oversimplified claims. Debate with them is futile. I am infinitely happy they have not been able to dictate laws and treatment guidelines. If they did, they would have blood on their hands.

Your concession is accepted.

 

[MarcoPolo]

significant danger of violence, rape and even murder if forced to use the bathroom of their assigned-at-birth sex.

What percentage of transgender females entering a male restroom are raped or murdered? Is there a threshold that constitutes “significant danger”? Are they murdered in other venues or just bathrooms? I would like to see the data that heterosexual males instantly turn to violence if they encounter a transgender person. Can we analyze that data?

 

[estesbob]

What percentage of transgender females entering a male restroom are raped or murdered? Is there a threshold that constitutes “significant danger”? Are they murdered in other venues or just bathrooms? I would like to see the data that heterosexual males instantly turn to violence if they encounter a transgender person. Can we analyze that data?

Well that was a mistake. I was curious as what the number of transsexuals who were being abused in restrooms so I googled “transsexuals abused restrooms”. I can not post tor describe the links I got for fear of being banned for life.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

So if little Bobby thinks he was born an internal lesbian, does he go to the boys room or the girls room?

Gender and sexual orientation are not the same.

 

[estesbob]

Gender and sexual orientation are not the same.

Correct-one is physical and immutable-the other is mental and may are not be acted upon.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well that was a mistake. I was curious as what the number of transsexuals who were being abused in restrooms so I googled “transsexuals abused restrooms”. I can not post tor describe the links I got for fear of being banned for life.

Thank you for sparing us. I also wonder to what degree such a law will help sexual predators in accessing bathrooms they otherwise couldn’t……!

 

[RGCheek]

I’m unsubscribing from this thread; I have responded to (other people posing) the recently mad claims ad nauseam, and I’m sick of it. In my experience those who adhere to the conservative ideology will not really consider any argument made, and just continue repeating the same, oversimplified claims. Debate with them is futile. I am infinitely happy they have not been able to dictate laws and treatment guidelines. If they did, they would have blood on their hands.

I have responded to you in a friendly way but you got offended.

Guess there isn’t much to say when TRUTH gives offense.

 

[RGCheek]

Gender and sexual orientation are not the same.

OK, so what?

Gender is physical and orientation is mental.

So why cant little Bobby think he is both a girl and a lesbian?

 

[Jessica_Cunara]

I have responded to you in a friendly way but you got offended.

Guess there isn’t much to say when TRUTH gives offense.

Your concession is accepted.

Thank you for sparing us. I also wonder to what degree such a law will help sexual predators in accessing bathrooms they otherwise couldn’t……!

I’ve been watching this thread for a while. It’s really nice to know that ultimately, when someone is frustrated about being ignored for providing information and addressing points that have been circulated around the forums more than I care to count, some middle school mentality of celebrating someone leaving in frustration is still an acceptable course of action. I miss those days where it didn’t matter what the information brought to the table was, it just mattered who lasted the longest repeating what they wanted to believe.

I look forward to a day when Christians will actually act like Christ. Actually having kindness, forgiving people, not gloating about how ‘right’ they are… I say this and there’s many things I’ve learned that are wrong with what Jesus did vs what was needed and what he says, the issues of how to know what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are figurative or poetic. In the year that it’s been since I’ve last posted, I’d say that I was barely hanging on to any faith, and the behavior i’m seeing here, the lack of compassion, the lack of empathy, the eagerness to judge, is almost enough for me to abandon my faith completely because if this is how God’s people behave toward each other and how they want to treat or control others, I want absolutely nothing more to do with that same belief.

I hope your glee is worth it. Like in the Ishbane Conspiracy novel I once read (akin in nature to the Screwtape Letters), the enemy, if we even have one, would delight more in his opponents worrying more about winning arguments than winning souls.

 

[Paleocon]

I’ve been watching this thread for a while. It’s really nice to know that ultimately, when someone is frustrated about being ignored for providing information and addressing points that have been circulated around the forums more than I care to count, some middle school mentality of celebrating someone leaving in frustration is still an acceptable course of action. I miss those days where it didn’t matter what the information brought to the table was, it just mattered who lasted the longest repeating what they wanted to believe.

I look forward to a day when Christians will actually act like Christ. Actually having kindness, forgiving people, not gloating about how ‘right’ they are… I say this and there’s many things I’ve learned that are wrong with what Jesus did vs what was needed and what he says, the issues of how to know what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are figurative or poetic. In the year that it’s been since I’ve last posted, I’d say that I was barely hanging on to any faith, and the behavior i’m seeing here, the lack of compassion, the lack of empathy, the eagerness to judge, is almost enough for me to abandon my faith completely because if this is how God’s people behave toward each other and how they want to treat or control others, I want absolutely nothing more to do with that same belief.

I hope your glee is worth it. Like in the Ishbane Conspiracy novel I once read (akin in nature to the Screwtape Letters), the enemy, if we even have one, would delight more in his opponents worrying more about winning arguments than winning souls.

No one has judged Rin.

 

[Havard]

No one has judged Rin.

The comments Jessica quoted do come off as snarky.

 

[estesbob]

I’ve been watching this thread for a while. It’s really nice to know that ultimately, when someone is frustrated about being ignored for providing information and addressing points that have been circulated around the forums more than I care to count, some middle school mentality of celebrating someone leaving in frustration is still an acceptable course of action. I miss those days where it didn’t matter what the information brought to the table was, it just mattered who lasted the longest repeating what they wanted to believe.

I look forward to a day when Christians will actually act like Christ. Actually having kindness, forgiving people, not gloating about how ‘right’ they are… I say this and there’s many things I’ve learned that are wrong with what Jesus did vs what was needed and what he says, the issues of how to know what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are figurative or poetic. In the year that it’s been since I’ve last posted, I’d say that I was barely hanging on to any faith, and the behavior i’m seeing here, the lack of compassion, the lack of empathy, the eagerness to judge, is almost enough for me to abandon my faith completely because if this is how God’s people behave toward each other and how they want to treat or control others, I want absolutely nothing more to do with that same belief.

I hope your glee is worth it. Like in the Ishbane Conspiracy novel I once read (akin in nature to the Screwtape Letters), the enemy, if we even have one, would delight more in his opponents worrying more about winning arguments than winning souls.

If comments by anonymous posters in an Internet forum cause you any weakening of your faith you should flee from all discussion groups with all due haste .

 

[Jessica_Cunara]

If comments by anonymous posters in an Internet forum cause you any weakening of your faith you should flee from all discussion groups with all due haste .

Comments posted by anonymous posters in an internet forum are, at least from my experience, a more pure experience of the level of maturity of a community. With anonymity comes the freedom of expression of self that allows any manner of persona released, without possible repercussion in the ‘real world’, were societal repercussions abound. In an environment like this, people are more prone to be relaxed, and with relaxation comes more genuine presentations of self, precisely because any opposition can be dismissed by not reading or misreading the comments given.

It is far to easy for me to go to a church of any denomination and be left wondering 'is this how they are all the time? Is this simply a mask?" And even on attending extra activities, such as game nights with my 20s and 30s group, I still am left wondering. When all you see is the positives, where do you go for a better view of how people really live their lives? (especially when you are in self doubt of faith, why to have it, what to believe, and so on.)

So to answer your implied question of “Why don’t you just leave or ignore the forums then? Why are you letting this be so personal?” It’s personal because of the raw representation of Christ many of you are presenting. I know that no one can be perfect, but in several of these instances I’m not even seeing an attempt to be Christian. I’m seeing people who declare they are Christian, and by actions, show me the things that suggest that Christians are hardly much different than secular people, only using their ‘Christianity’ to cover for their hates, biases, and desires.

So, to tie this in to the topic at hand, why is it NOT disturbing that this is the reaction I am seeing relatively often with the exception of a few, to try and repeat the same wrong information and inappropriate comparisons to argue against helping a group that is being mistreated and misunderstood? Rin has done a rather nice job in the past (as have others) of presenting information and science that God would have given us to understand his universe and why things are the way they are, better. Why then are we so hung up on trying to push others out of the conversation through ignoring points provided? To have those who gloat about pushing someone who’s trying to spread understanding, even if their understanding is wrong, is also wrong, because how will we grow unless we actually listen to each other, maybe even meet halfway?

 

[Paleocon]

The comments Jessica quoted do come off as snarky.

Which is a far cry from all the things Jessica accused us of.