Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[Cherry5]

The medical community disagreed with their own current unsubstantiated position years ago. It’s so… PC to believe in nonsense today. Officially, women do not suffer major psychological consequences from elective abortions either. It matters not how many thousands of abortion victims say otherwise.

I was specifically referring to the transgender condition.
I am satisfied that I have done my due diligence in confirming that the church has not taken a stand on this.
Hormone treatment of this condition has proven to be very effective. There is no other effective treatment known.
Before starting on hormones it is essential to eliminate all other conditions that may influence this condition and be treated appropriately first.
The choice is between living a miserable life versus a fulfilled life.

I fail to understand why the bitter opinions, knowing that the church has not taken a stand on this. Why do you feel you have to take a firm stand on this?

 

[Rin]

People who threaten suicide invariably do not know how manipulative they are being.
Very definitely, the subject of this thread was using his or her suicide as an emotional blackmail to change society.

but again, I don’t want to delve into the personal psychological state of any individual poster, or deal with arguments based on the psychological state of anyone posting here.

The subject of this thread did not threaten suicide - she did so without warning, leaving a suicide note on her blog, to be publicized after her death. There was no threat involved. So you’ve got even that wrong.

Regardless of the fact that I do indeed suffer from gender dysphoria and have been in fragile states earlier in life, my main argument is that your claim do not correspond with reality. There is no observed link, and no reason for suspecting one. Not even from a cursory read of the DSM criteria. Obviously, if you feel uncomfortable discussing this with someone who has firsthand knowledge, then let’s leave it at this. But don’t believe for a second that any psychologist or psychiatrist with relevant specialization would agree with you at all.

 

[estesbob]

I was specifically referring to the transgender condition.
I am satisfied that I have done my due diligence in confirming that the church has not taken a stand on this.
Hormone treatment of this condition has proven to be very effective. There is no other effective treatment known.
Before starting on hormones it is essential to eliminate all other conditions that may influence this condition and be treated appropriately first.
The choice is between living a miserable life versus a fulfilled life.

I fail to understand why the bitter opinions, knowing that the church has not taken a stand on this. Why do you feel you have to take a firm stand on this?

They have taken a stand. they have stated gender is immutable. I have posted the references only to be told it is not binding, the bishops disagree or some bishop told them in private it was OK. -none of which was backed up by anything but opinion.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I disagree, it is not the normal practice today in the Roman Catholic Church.

You disagree with what? That the Church ordains married men today and always has, or that the Church says marriage isn’t what you opined?

 

[meltzerboy]

I was specifically referring to the transgender condition.
I am satisfied that I have done my due diligence in confirming that the church has not taken a stand on this.
Hormone treatment of this condition has proven to be very effective. There is no other effective treatment known.
Before starting on hormones it is essential to eliminate all other conditions that may influence this condition and be treated appropriately first.
The choice is between living a miserable life versus a fulfilled life.

I fail to understand why the bitter opinions, knowing that the church has not taken a stand on this. Why do you feel you have to take a firm stand on this?

I may be able to answer your question. We are dealing with sexuality and, more than that, sexuality outside the norm, as well as gender roles which appear to be threatened. A topic such as this is bound to generate defensive attitudes because the binary model of gender is so ingrained, especially in Western religious teaching: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; and also in Buddhism, I believe. Even atheists, if they are raised within a religious cultural environment, may display sharp criticism of a phenomenon such as transgenderism, and the gay community, who should know better, tend to be likewise skeptical and unsympathetic. Furthermore, advocates of the transgender plight are viewed as politically motivated in their role as secular liberals whose ultimate agenda is to rid society of the religious and moral values of the Church.

 

[Rin]

they have stated gender is immutable

…which neither I, nor the other posters on this thread who are informed on the subject, nor any transgender individual or gender therapist contests.

Gender is indeed immutable. It cannot be changed. This is why gender dysphoria is treated the way it is, one cannot change one’s immutable gender like conservatives insist on, but one can bring the body’s hormonal setup and in some cases genitals in line with one’s gender, causing the inner turmoil to reduce, or even cease in some cases.

The problem here is that you keep speaking as if those of us who defend transsexual medical treatment believe gender is mutable. Do I have to buy a megaphone to get across that this isn’t the case?

Edit: You should also read up on the differences between pastoral and doctrinal documents (the one you consistently misrepresent is a pastoral letter), and what ‘sub secretum’ means. The document was not even meant for your eyes; if it was not leaked, you would not even know of its existence. It is not a doctrinal declarations. Doctrine is never proclaimed secretly. It is however a guideline for bishops, and only that. I am happy that it was leaked, since it unambiguously states that sex reassignment surgery is morally licit in cases where it is therapeutically absolutely necessary. For your information, no respectable surgeon would perform such surgery under any other circumstances than documented medical necessity.

 

[gracepoole]

I may be able to answer your question. We are dealing with sexuality and, more than that, sexuality outside the norm, as well as gender roles which appear to be threatened. A topic such as this is bound to generate defensive attitudes because the binary model of gender is so ingrained, especially in Western religious teaching: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; and also in Buddhism, I believe. Even atheists, if they are raised within a religious cultural environment, may display sharp criticism of a phenomenon such as transgenderism, and the gay community, who should know better, tend to be likewise skeptical and unsympathetic. Furthermore, advocates of the transgender plight are viewed as politically motivated in their role as secular liberals whose ultimate agenda is to rid society of the religious and moral values of the Church.

So clearly and well stated.

 

[cjforJesus]

…which neither I, nor the other posters on this thread who are informed on the subject, nor any transgender individual or gender therapist contests.

Gender is indeed immutable. It cannot be changed. This is why gender dysphoria is treated the way it is, one cannot change one’s immutable gender like conservatives insist on, but one can bring the body’s hormonal setup and in some cases genitals in line with one’s gender, causing the inner turmoil to reduce, or even cease in some cases.

The problem here is that you keep speaking as if those of us who defend transsexual medical treatment believe gender is mutable. Do I have to buy a megaphone to get across that this isn’t the case?

Edit: You should also read up on the differences between pastoral and doctrinal documents (the one you consistently misrepresent is a pastoral letter), and what ‘sub secretum’ means. The document was not even meant for your eyes; if it was not leaked, you would not even know of its existence. It is not a doctrinal declarations. Doctrine is never proclaimed secretly. It is however a guideline for bishops, and only that. I am happy that it was leaked, since it unambiguously states that sex reassignment surgery is morally licit in cases where it is therapeutically absolutely necessary. For your information, no respectable surgeon would perform such surgery under any other circumstances than documented medical necessity.

Gender cannot be changed and it is not psychological but biological except in rare cases where there is testicular feminization and a genetically male fetus appears female. Those cases are rare and what is supposedly accepted(nd has only been accepted as the norm around the same time as homosexual activity was) as a person trapped in the body of the wrong sex is merely deeply rooted psychological problems involving hatred of ones body parts. One of the supposed key symptoms of the disorder is disgust and repulsion of ones genitals which clearly points to a deeply rooted emotional issue. It seems similar to those people who have a disgust toward a perception of obesity never being able to accept their bodies and at times actually starving themselves to death.

No surgeon would ever mutilate or destroy a persons genitals based on faulty science. This is unconscionable and violates the "first do no harm{ rule of medicine. These people that they operate on are never going to be truly females as they only have the external appearance and semblance of a woman as their vaginas are fabricated and as far as I know they are not given functioning uteruses or ovaries.As far as i know the Ychromosomes they inherited cannot be gotten rid of either. Perhaps in the future these bizarre human experiments will cross over into something even worse. God help us

 

[Cherry5]

You disagree with what? That the Church ordains married men today and always has, or that the Church says marriage isn’t what you opined?

That the church ordains married men. I have nothing against marriage. The point was trying to make was that just because a transgender person is not allowed to become a priest does not imply that it is wrong.

 

[estesbob]

I may be able to answer your question. We are dealing with sexuality and, more than that, sexuality outside the norm, as well as gender roles which appear to be threatened. A topic such as this is bound to generate defensive attitudes because the binary model of gender is so ingrained, especially in Western religious teaching: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; and also in Buddhism, I believe. Even atheists, if they are raised within a religious cultural environment, may display sharp criticism of a phenomenon such as transgenderism, and the gay community, who should know better, tend to be likewise skeptical and unsympathetic. Furthermore, advocates of the transgender plight are viewed as politically motivated in their role as secular liberals whose ultimate agenda is to rid society of the religious and moral values of the Church.

Of course a binary model of gender is ingrained -it’s a biological fact !

 

[Rin]

Gender cannot be changed and it is not psychological but biological except in rare cases where there is testicular feminization and a genetically male fetus appears female. Those cases are rare and what is supposedly accepted(nd has only been accepted as the norm around the same time as homosexual activity was) as a person trapped in the body of the wrong sex is merely deeply rooted psychological problems involving hatred of ones body parts. One of the supposed key symptoms of the disorder is disgust and repulsion of ones genitals which clearly points to a deeply rooted emotional issue. It seems similar to those people who have a disgust toward a perception of obesity never being able to accept their bodies and at times actually starving themselves to death.

No surgeon would ever mutilate or destroy a persons genitals based on faulty science. This is unconscionable and violates the "first do no harm{ rule of medicine. These people that they operate on are never going to be truly females as they only have the external appearance and semblance of a woman as their vaginas are fabricated and as far as I know they are not given functioning uteruses or ovaries.As far as i know the Ychromosomes they inherited cannot be gotten rid of either. Perhaps in the future these bizarre human experiments will cross over into something even worse. God help us

/sigh

The brain is part of our biology. Period.

As for the rest, I have refuted everything you say in this post (though presented by other posters) so many times in so many threads that I’m simply done doing so. I don’t have the energy for it anymore. But please, consider whether biology perhaps could be more complex than you were taught in school. The problem here is that people who are completely ignorant about how gender identity is formed in the brain, think they can use “reality” as an argument, when they simply have no grasp on biological reality.

 

[estesbob]

/sigh

The brain is part of our biology. Period.

As for the rest, I have refuted everything you say in this post (though presented by other posters) so many times in so many threads that I’m simply done doing so. I don’t have the energy for it anymore. But please, consider whether biology perhaps could be more complex than you were taught in school. The problem here is that people who are completely ignorant about how gender identity is formed in the brain, think they can use “reality” as an argument, when they simply have no grasp on biological reality.

God forbid somebody should use reality as a basis for determining gender !

 

[Rin]

God forbid somebody should use reality as a basis for determining gender !

Well yes, you are obviously against doing so.

 

[Dawnia]

I forgot how self-absorbed teenagers are. Everything is life or death and has to happen NOW! (I really don’t miss those days.)

From his letter, I see someone who is narcissistic. Noone and nothing will ever be good enough for him. And he seems to be under the dilution that he is so important that his death would be more than just another statistic.

How horrible it must be to feel that way, especially to the point that life isn’t worth living if it isn’t going to be “perfect”. Reality must really suck for people like him. To want something you know that you can never have.

 

[cjforJesus]

/sigh

The brain is part of our biology. Period.

As for the rest, I have refuted everything you say in this post (though presented by other posters) so many times in so many threads that I’m simply done doing so. I don’t have the energy for it anymore. But please, consider whether biology perhaps could be more complex than you were taught in school. The problem here is that people who are completely ignorant about how gender identity is formed in the brain, think they can use “reality” as an argument, when they simply have no grasp on biological reality.

You are basing your beliefs on a falsehood. Babies are born either male or female.Sometimes there are birth defects which make a male appear female. It is hormones not the brain which causes testicular feminization.

God created us male and female. Males have Y chromosomes and females do not. Males generally have penises and testcles while women are known to have vaginas ovaries uteruses and breasts. The biology of the sexes is geared toward bearing and raising offspring. The parts generally fit together perfectly and the embrace of love often leads to the creation of new life.

 

[Rin]

You are basing your beliefs on a falsehood. Babies are born either male or female.Sometimes there are birth defects which make a male appear female. You have no idea at all how gender identity is formed. God created us male and female. It is hormones not the brain which causes testicular feminization.

I’m sorry, but I’m through with this. I did not say that the “brain causes testicular feminization”. I am saying that the experienced identity of a person, their thought patterns, instincts, their very personality, is in human biology expressed through the brain, not the gonads.

I stand by my words, you have no idea at all how gender identity is formed. And I will now unsubscribe from this thread and block CAF in my router for a while. This cesspit of a thread has ruined two days for me, I will not let it ruin a third. Goodbye for now, everyone.

 

[estesbob]

I’m sorry, but I’m through with this. I did not say that the “brain causes testicular feminization”. I am saying that the experienced identity of a person, their thought patterns, instincts, their very personality, is in human biology expressed through the brain, not the gonads.

I stand by my words, you have no idea at all how gender identity is formed. And I will now unsubscribe from this thread and block CAF in my router for a while. This cesspit of a thread has ruined two days for me, I will not let it ruin a third. Goodbye for now, everyone.

Gender is determined at conception.

 

[RileyG]

If you want to actually learn more about LGBT people or learn more about why some of them suffer from depression or commit suicide, you should learn from people who know something about the subject. You might consider actually talking to some real LGBT people or read what organizations that do research on this subject have to say such as the Family Acceptance Project at California State University, San Francisco:

familyproject.sfsu.edu/home

Hello,
Friendly warning: This is a Catholic website and we do not support the homosexual or transsexual lifestyles.

So, sad. I offered a Divine Mercy Chaplet for the repose of Joshua’s soul the other day; Ultimately, mutating your own body will not solve anything but make the cross heavier to bear.

Eternal rest grant unto Joshua, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen. +

 

[meltzerboy]

God forbid somebody should use reality as a basis for determining gender !

If you’re talking about cultural reality, there are various cultures which do not have a binary gender model, such as those in India, Nepal, Thailand, and Pakistan. Some have third genders, while others have fourth or fifth genders. Biology relates to sexuality whereas culture relates to gender and gender roles.

 

[Dawnia]

…which neither I, nor the other posters on this thread who are informed on the subject, nor any transgender individual or gender therapist contests.

Gender is indeed immutable. It cannot be changed. This is why gender dysphoria is treated the way it is, one cannot change one’s immutable gender like conservatives insist on, but one can bring the body’s hormonal setup and in some cases genitals in line with one’s gender, causing the inner turmoil to reduce, or even cease in some cases.

The problem here is that you keep speaking as if those of us who defend transsexual medical treatment believe gender is mutable. Do I have to buy a megaphone to get across that this isn’t the case?

Edit: You should also read up on the differences between pastoral and doctrinal documents (the one you consistently misrepresent is a pastoral letter), and what ‘sub secretum’ means. The document was not even meant for your eyes; if it was not leaked, you would not even know of its existence. It is not a doctrinal declarations. Doctrine is never proclaimed secretly. It is however a guideline for bishops, and only that. I am happy that it was leaked, since it unambiguously states that sex reassignment surgery is morally licit in cases where it is therapeutically absolutely necessary. For your information, no respectable surgeon would perform such surgery under any other circumstances than documented medical necessity.

To normal people, gender and sex are interchangeable terms. Gender is not seperable from someones sex. So when you claim that gender is not changeable, what you’re really saying is that thoughts overrule biology. When there is a disconnect between thoughts and biology, biology wins everytime. You can surgically make biology appear different, but it doesn’t make it different.