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estesbob
Guest
To me the Church is much more important than the medical community-a community that slaughters 1.2 million children a year. I would hardly hold them as the arbiters of morality.
Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’
- Status
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estesbob
Guest
No-shutting the discussion down would make honest dialogue impossible.
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ucfengr
Guest
Discussions like this can be very difficult on this type of forum. Forums like this tend to lend themselves better to adversarial discussions. Going forward, I just want to let everyone know that I respect the struggles that people who have with this type of disorder have to go through. I don’t know what causes it, and I know there are no easy solutions. They’re on a difficult road, and one that they didn’t choose. I don’t know how I’d respond to one of my children if they confessed these types of desires to me. I hope I’d be compassionate and loving, but I know I’d struggle with it too. I pray every day that God will make me the man that He wants me to be, rather than the selfish bastard that I am. Some days are easier than others. These are not easy topics.
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estesbob
Guest
I suffer from depression and alcoholism. If a thread makes me uncomfortable I quit participating in it-I don’t demand it be shut down.
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ucfengr
Guest
I’m not asking it to be shut down. My apologies if that’s how my post came across.
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gracepoole
Guest
This isn’t about shutting down a discussion for the sake of shutting out opinions, as others have explained and as you well know by now. Your refusal to hear others when they express genuine concern for those who may well be suicidal is frightening. Sometimes people actually move out of their political boxes to express human concern. It’s a faulty assumption to say that simply because I don’t do this others must not either.
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estesbob
Guest
Again by this rationale we should shut down every discussion in these forums. If you think the thread could cause problems you shouldn’t participate in it.
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estesbob
Guest
I know you weren’t-they were some earlier in this thread that wanted this topic banned.
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gracepoole
Guest
This isn’t about freedom of speech or opinions. It’s about prudence. Not every discussion in these forums may lead a fifteen-year-old to kill herself. And again, you know that. Why you’re disparaging those who have this concern (whether you yourself have it or not) is incredibly uncharitable and revealing. Praying for you.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Yes, and that is your response. Mine, on the other hand, would be to demand that such a thread is conducted with charity or that it be shut down.
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Robert_Bay
Guest
MODERATOR NOTE
The thread is not going to be shut down. Move on with the discussion please
PM me if you have questions.
Stop talking about each other
The thread is not going to be shut down. Move on with the discussion please
PM me if you have questions.
Stop talking about each other
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estesbob
Guest
The Holy Father, in his homily during the Inaugural Mass in St Peter’s Basilica, pointed out, with a very incisive expression, how the First World “is exporting its spiritual toxic waste” to Africa and other developing areas. One of these poisons is the so-called “gender theory”, which, heavily disguised, is starting to infiltrate associations, governments and even some ecclesial environments in the African continent, judging from what the Pontifical Council for the Family tells us.
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The agents of various international institutions and organizations start from real problems, which must be dutifully resolved, such as the injustice and violence suffered by women, infant mortality, malnutrition and famine, problems related to housing and work. They propose solutions based on the values of equality, health and liberty: sacrosanct concepts, but rendered ambiguous by the new anthropological meanings that are given to them. For example, equality of people no longer just means equal dignity and access to fundamental human rights; but also the irrelevance of the natural differences between men and women, the uniformity of all individuals, as though they were sexually undifferentiated, and therefore the equality of all sexual orientations and behavior: heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, polymorphous. Each individual has the right to freely practice (and change, should they wish) their choices in line with their drives, desires and preferences.
This ideology is spread by reproductive health centers, local educational meetings and international TV programs broadcast via satellite. Collaboration of African governments and local groups, including ecclesial groups, is sought, and these groups usually don’t realize the ethically unacceptable anthropological implications of this.
My intervention is intended as an invitation to be vigilant, an exhortation to offer careful instructions to priests, seminarians, religious, Caritas and other lay pastoral workers.
vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_23_ii_speciale-africa-2009/02_inglese/b10_02.html*
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The agents of various international institutions and organizations start from real problems, which must be dutifully resolved, such as the injustice and violence suffered by women, infant mortality, malnutrition and famine, problems related to housing and work. They propose solutions based on the values of equality, health and liberty: sacrosanct concepts, but rendered ambiguous by the new anthropological meanings that are given to them. For example, equality of people no longer just means equal dignity and access to fundamental human rights; but also the irrelevance of the natural differences between men and women, the uniformity of all individuals, as though they were sexually undifferentiated, and therefore the equality of all sexual orientations and behavior: heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, polymorphous. Each individual has the right to freely practice (and change, should they wish) their choices in line with their drives, desires and preferences.
This ideology is spread by reproductive health centers, local educational meetings and international TV programs broadcast via satellite. Collaboration of African governments and local groups, including ecclesial groups, is sought, and these groups usually don’t realize the ethically unacceptable anthropological implications of this.
My intervention is intended as an invitation to be vigilant, an exhortation to offer careful instructions to priests, seminarians, religious, Caritas and other lay pastoral workers.
vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_23_ii_speciale-africa-2009/02_inglese/b10_02.html*
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SMGS127
Guest
This letter is from a Synod of Bishops, not from Pope Francis. The translation isn’t even official, but even if it was, it’s no more binding on a Catholic than the American Bishops’ endorsement of ObamaCare was binding on politicians. In discussing evangelization with my former priest, he checked with his Bishop, and let me know that there was no official Catholic teaching on transsexualism [as opposed to same-sex sexual conduct] and I did not need to present it as something opposing the Church [again, as opposed to same-sex sexual conduct] to the LGBT community.
This is an issue that Bishops don’t even agree on and where no doctrine exists. It is up to the individual well-formed conscience of each Catholic.
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Rin
Guest
The ideology the Holy Father addressed and criticized in the speech referenced above, gender deconstructionist theory, has nothing whatsoever to do with the medical diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria (formerly called transsexualism), and the fact that Cardinal Antonelli makes the jump from pp. Benedict’s speech to transsexualism, only proves that Cardinal Antonelli has no clue about what the diagnosis entails.
The medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and the treatment thereof, is not based on gender deconstructionist theory. On the contrary, a transgender individual does not think that they can (or want to) change their gender. Most report having been that way from birth. The Pope effectively (and rightly!) criticized gender deconstructionism in his speech. But he did not criticize the medical phenomenon of gender dysphoria, nor the treatment thereof. If he intended to, he still did not do it - it is simply not contained in the text. Only someone ignorant on the subject will see the speech as an condemnation of transgenderism.
Seriously, American Conservatives only have two things to cling to in this debate - the sub secretum pastoral (not doctrinal) document, which states that sex reassignment does not change your gender, and Pope Benedict’s speech. As for the former, well, d’oh. No one claims that sex reassignment changes your gender. When a patient undergoes male-to-female sex reassignment, it is because she is, always was, and always will be female. The same obviously goes for female-to-male. As for the latter, the speech simply does not apply to transgenderism, since the ideology described does not fit with the opinion of most transgender individuals. To clarify, most transgender individuals would agree wholeheartedly with Pope Benedict’s speech.
So I can only conclude that the basis for the American Conservative stance in this specific case is nil. They are grasping for straws, and cannot even prove that the Church agrees with them. Which is good, since the Church would in that case violate what Vatican I has to say about the limitations of papal infallibility (the Pope can never pronounce on matters scientific, and gender is determined through science, not faith), much like She did during the heliocentrism feud.
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Thorolfr
Guest
So are you saying that faith and I suppose prayer can solve or cure all these issues? Prayer is a very good things, but can a person who suffers from depression just pray it away without outside intervention and possibly medication? Can gay people just “pray the gay away”? Can transgender people just pray their gender dysphoria away?
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WonderAndAwe
Guest
couragerc.orgSo are you saying that faith and I suppose prayer can solve or cure all these issues? Prayer is a very good things, but can a person who suffers from depression just pray it away without outside intervention and possibly medication? Can gay people just “pray the gay away”? Can transgender people just pray their gender dysphoria away?
Not really “pray it away until you’re straight” but more “through prayer help you come to terms with it while not indulging it ever.”
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Lost_Sheep
Guest
Please stop referring to this kid as a “her.”
He was born a male. No amount of “gender identity” or surgery is going to change his genetic make up. By referring to Joshua Alcorn as a “she” or a “her” lends credence to this abomination called transsexuality.
He was born a male. No amount of “gender identity” or surgery is going to change his genetic make up. By referring to Joshua Alcorn as a “she” or a “her” lends credence to this abomination called transsexuality.
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SMGS127
Guest
You are free to believe whatever you want about transsexuality. You are free to believe it is complete BS with no credence whatsoever if you wish.
However, since there is no official position of the Catholic Church on the issue of transsexuality, you are not free to bind others to your position. You can believe in the legitimacy of transsexuality and still be a practicing Catholic. You can also believe it’s complete BS and still be a practicing Catholic.
Each Catholic should use a well-formed conscience to decide for themselves how they feel about the issue, but no one is allowed to bind anyone else on the matter. I, for one, believe that Leelah Alcorn was female and had a genetic error in-utero that caused her to develop the wrong genitalia and sexual characteristics. But I no more am allowed to force you to believe that than you force me to believe your position.
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Lost_Sheep
Guest
Was the person born with XX or XY chromosomes? There is your answer. End of story.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Being transgender is not an abomination, it is a biological defect, is not the person’s fault and is not a choice.
- Status