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ucfengr
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In contemporary Western culture, sex trumps all.
Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’
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gracepoole
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I didn’t read other posters’ comments about banning this topic as based on a desire not to offend but rather as a response to the already emotionally and psychologically vulnerable state of transgendered persons (particularly youth) who may come upon this kind of thread. I think the emphasis is on concern for their immediate well-being.
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Rin
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Straw man. I did indeed say (and do still hold) that these debates on CAF attract so much uncharitability and even anti-compassion that it can hurt people, physically as well as mentally and spiritually, and that for this reason, I wish the topic was banned. For some of us, having to read the same garbage of misrepresented studies, commonly-accepted but false factoids, and not least being described as deluded, as having a sinister agenda, or worse, over and over again, is not only taxing, but triggering. Additionally, these debates do reflect badly on the Church, and I know people who have walked away from Her as a result. To be honest, I would too, if I hadn’t been fortunate enough to experience the real Church before encountering online catholicism.
That does not mean the subject should not be discussed. It means I have become disillusioned on whether any such thread will ever remain respectful and charitable towards those who are different, and often have suffered greatly because of it.
Lastly, I am no part of the so-called “modern left”. I am aware that this may be difficult to comprehend for someone who is into the “culture war” interpretation of society, but I have never voted for a left-leaning party, and neither will I. Neither do I see to sit down and shut up as the only acceptable response to my views. It is possible to voice disagreements in a way that does not hurt the individual, and I can think of several individuals on CAF with whom I often disagree, but yet have had fruitful debates with, because they are respectful.
So I’m sorry, but you’ll have to try again. The old “my opponents want to silence me” trope doesn’t correspond with reality. They do however want you to treat them with respect, and to at least try to put yourself in their shoes before speaking.
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Rin
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Being transgender has absolutely nothing to do with sex (the act, not the personality trait). Zero. Nada. Nix. Zip. Nought.
I am transgender. I have never had sex, nor do I plan to. My condition is not one of sexuality, but of identity, of how the brain reacts to hormones, of who you actually are. I knew that I differed on this long before I was even made aware of how “babies are created”. It had, and has, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sex.
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Joie_de_Vivre
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By this logic since chemotherapy doesn’t improve everyone’s life expectancy to normal it is worthless and thus should not be done.
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Cherry5
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Thank you, you expressed the concern better than I did.
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Rin
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I’m nearing bedtime and can’t write extensively, but here are some starters:
Treat the person with respect. If your ideology tells you I am male, then fine. I can’t change that. But I do, on principle, react to being addressed as such, as it would hurt less if you beat me physically. If your ideology forbids you to address or speak of me in the feminine, then use neutral forms - “they”, “Rin”, even “the poster”. I will still notice, but I will be grateful that you made the effort to meet me halfway.
Make sure your analogies actually work. The problem with the eating disorder comparison is that not only are they drastically different in nature (eating disorders affect self-perception into believing things like you’re fatter than you are, while dysphoria comes from the actual state of the body), it is also a fact that letting an anorexic patient starve will kill them, while in the case of severe gender dysphoria, sex reassignment has demonstrable, significant positive effects. There is a reason why these therapies are still provided after more than fifty years of practice - they work.
I’m trailing off, but the thing about analogies that don’t quite fit is that they look tabloid, and not least are they often very patronizing or even offensive - like the perpetual “I think I’m Napoleon” nonsense. Thing is, there is no rational way to claim that someone’s brain somehow miraculously turned in to Napoleon’s brain, but there is an ever-increasing amount of scientific evidence which indicates that it is indeed possible for a brain to develop differently from the reproductive system. Transgenderism is a logically possible phenomenon, being Napoleon is not.
Further on, avoid the culture wars narrative. I have yet to encounter a transgender individual who wants to ruin everything that is good and holy, and it is offensive to be accused of such when all one wants to do is to be able to live a life without unbearable suffering. The culture wars narrative is a construct, a “them versus us” theme, which only causes hostility.
Additionally, try and put yourself in the other person’s shoes. It is impossible to truly understand gender dysphoria without having experienced it yourself, but at least try. Listen to the experiences of actual people. Try imagining how you would have felt in their situation. Try to remember that these people are actual people, and not some abstract, scary entity out to ruin society.
Lastly, be open. Consider whether the other person could have something to teach you; that does not have to mean the other person is right, but at least consider their arguments. I have had to adjust my views after being presented with scientific data which showed that my previous understanding was insufficient. It didn’t overthrow my position, but it nuanced it. However, I find that a lot of people, even after having had pointed out to them that they are misreading studies, or misunderstand what transgenderism actually is, still continue to present the same, fallacious ideas in the next (or even the same) thread. This is what makes misreading into misrepresentation, and a simple mistake into intellectual dishonesty. When I encounter this, I can only conclude that the person is not interested in any kind of real discourse, it’s like speaking to a wall. Given the fact that I have always adjusted my views when presented with more convincing data (this is how I ended up Catholic in the first place - I grew up Baptist), I find this to be perhaps one of the more frustrating parts, though it does not offend me - it’s just exasperating.
A second element in the above, is to consider whether the Church actually teaches what you’re brought to believe, or whether those of us who say there is no Magisterial teaching could be right. The document linked to a few posts back is not doctrinal, but pastoral. The conclusions people draw from it are also flawed - I have been over this more times than I can count, so I will not do yet another exegesis, but the short version is that it in no way makes any final judgement on the gender status of the patient (hint: transsexual surgery is not about “changing” someone’s gender, that is the tabloid version), and that it actually permits surgical treatment where it is the only way to help the patient. Either way, it should be of concern to those who so heavily condemn sex reassignment, that the Church has never actually done so Herself.
Anyhow, I’m sure I could think of more, but at least these are some pointers.
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SMGS127
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I meant it niceOnly if you ask nicely.
.I’m not sure it’s really worked in the ways conversion therapy activists like to trump it as working. All I’ve ever heard is [in the case of sexual orientation conversion therapy] people saying they’ve lessened their desires, not turned them into heterosexual ones. Of course, I do believe in miracles and will never deny a person’s story. But the person needs to be the one seeking help, and a minor cannot consent to their own therapy as long as they are controlled by their parents (e.g. non-autonomous).
Though I’ve never seen a single case of successful gender identity conversion therapy, which is part of the reason I believe that people with gender dysphoria are actually the gender they understand themselves to be. Especially since the definition of transsexualism (a person very strongly seeing themselves as one gender, very strongly seeing themselves as always having been that gender, and believing that one can neither choose nor change their gender) is entirely in line with Catholic doctrine.
Thank youI would agree.
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cjforJesus
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This is a very sad and tragic situation,but this poor young man obviously had some very deep seated emotional problems that therapy could not address. Seeking to mutilate or remove ones genitals because you are not satisfied with them appears to be a temporary solution to a much bigger problem. The problem of society spending millions on research and surgeries and books and programs advancing this alternative lifestyle only serves to exacerbate a moral issue encouraging young people to accept sexual deviations and depravity.
I pray for the repose of the soul of this confused young man and also pray for the parents who sincerely tried to help the son they love. This love was scorned in his final words to them in his suicide note. I still believe though God is a God of love and mercy and that his soul is not lost forever.
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Cherry5
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I am not sure if you read a couple of posts earlier, reparative therapy does not work.
This is extremely inaccurate, I know several transgender people that have gone through surgery with very good long term results.
The church has not taken a stand on this, it is one thing to express an opinion on the part of the parents versus going to extreme measures that are cruel. The fact that you support the patents actions appals me. In light of the Pope’s stand, I would be extremely surprised if the church condones the parents behavior.
I strongly suggest that you educate your self on this subject, it would be appreciated if you could please research the recommendations you prescribe before making them. The consequence can be disastrous. Obviously the therapist’s approach was ineffective.
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estesbob
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It is a blatant attempt to shut down the discussion. And of course,as always, those who want to shut it down are " doing it for the children. "
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estesbob
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The discussion bothers usually should avoid thread. Using the rationale expressed by those who don’t want their opinions challenge we should shut down every single thread in this forum
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estesbob
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Again, as I posted earlier, the Church has taken a stand. You can’t change your gender.
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SMGS127
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I have never met a single transsexual who felt that you could. Your post is largely a non-sequitur
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estesbob
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Then why are so many in this thread calling a him a her? I was commenting on the statement that the church has no teaching on this. That is factually incorrect. I posted a link to the church’s teaching on this earlier in this threadI have never met a single transsexual who felt that you could. Your post is largely a non-sequitur
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Cherry5
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Please read post # 136 Rin has addressed your concerns.
I have done my due diligence, all four of the priests I have discussed this with have confirmed that the Church has not taken a stand on this(three of them from different countries). I even requested the parish priest to check with a Diocesan Theologian who confirmed the same.
This is a sub secretum document should you be referring to it? perhaps there was good reason for this not to be made public or be used. The Church could potentially take a stand that is quite different from the document you refer to.
The following statement in the document leaves the door wide open:
"analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It
concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil. " I agree with this statement and there is a protocol in place to ensure that this is not taken lightly.
Since reparative therapy is ineffective the Church will need to come up with an alternative effective solution to address the dire situation that transgender people find them selves in before taking a stand. Today Hormone therapy and is some cases GRS is the most effective approach.
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SMGS127
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Because the Church does not have a stance on whether transsexualism is legitimate or not. Transsexualism does not state that one can change or choose their gender. Transsexualism is a medical disorder where one develops the wrong genitalia in-utero. Surgery is merely to correct the in-utero error using tissue the body would normally have initially constructed their genitalia based on their gender.
If you wish to believe that gender is entirely dependent on the external appearance of one’s genitalia (or chromosomes or internal organ composition or whatever you want to use as the basis of gender), you are more than free to. But the Church has never definitively stated that the shape of one’s genitalia (or chromosomes or internal organ composition) is the defining factor in one’s gender. In fact, the fact that gender is shown to be present before and during conception and after death in the Theology of the Body should very clearly indicate that there is an infallible definition of one’s gender. It cannot be altered or chosen, period. Even if one is to go into a child’s DNA in-utero and alter their genitalia production, it does not change their gender, even though they would develop reproductive organs of the gender opposite their gender.
I believe transsexualism is legitimate because the experiences of transsexuals that I have known in the LGBT community (having a clear identity of their gender, having it be present unceasing for their entire life, having positive medical responses to hormonal and surgical treatment) are completely in line with Catholic teaching on gender. But every Catholic is free to believe however on this issue. There is no Church teaching on the determination of gender, period. Only that it cannot be chosen or changed.
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Cherry5
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I can not speak to the other threads you refer to, however if the contents are liable to trigger serious physical harm to a section of readers that are being discussed, then yes I believe it is worth exploring.
In light of the fact that over 40% of transgender up to the age of 20 attempt to commit suicide, this is a real concern. It is a very vulnerable group, specially during this season when transgender people feel the hurt of rejection and isolation much more.
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estesbob
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Unfortunately the Priests you talked to were not aware of Catholic teaching. And of course anecdotal evidence proves nothing. The Church does allow surgery in the extremely rare cases where a person is born with the genitalia of both sexes. This in no shape or form translates into the church approving of transgender’s.
I have found in my years in this world that the best cure for internal turmoil is faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and the adherence to the teachings of his Church
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