Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[Rin]

The discussion bothers usually should avoid thread. Using the rationale expressed by those who don’t want their opinions challenge we should shut down every single thread in this forum

Estesbob, the first time you made this claim, I was willing to at least consider whether your straw man was accidental, because of the way you interpret reality (we all have some such bias to varying extents, it’s natural).

However, now that I have explained the reasons for my stance, and you still claim that I “don’t want my opinions challenged”, you are slandering me on purpose. Stop it.

 

[Rin]

The Church does allow surgery in the extremely rare cases where a person is born with the genitalia of both sexes.

This is not what the document you yourself linked says, and you know it. It allows genital surgery in “extreme cases” of transsexualism (which is what the document discusses), it says nothing about such surgery being reserved for intersex conditions.

Additionally, you should be aware that physiological ambiguity/intersex is not “extremely rare” - it is actually more common than transsexualism…

Those who subscribe to conservative ideology on CAF have made the bold claims you now make for years, and they have not to date produced Magisterial writings or declarations that support their stance.

I’m sorry, but you are not the Magisterium, neither are even CAF apologists. I will remain faithful to Rome - but not to online conservatives.

 

[estesbob]

This is not what the document you yourself linked says, and you know it.

Additionally, you should be aware that physiological ambiguity is not “extremely rare” - it is actually more common than transgenderism…

Those who subscribe to conservative ideology on CAF have made the bold claims you now make for years, and they have not to date produced Magisterial writings or declarations that support their stance.

I’m sorry, but you are not the Magisterium, neither are CAF apologists. I will remain faithful to Rome - but not to online conservatives.

I am the only one in this thread that is posted anything from the Church teachings on this issue. If you have something to post please do so .

 

[Cherry5]

Unfortunately the Priests you talked to were not aware of Catholic teaching. And of course anecdotal evidence proves nothing.** The Church does allow surgery in the extremely rare cases where a person is born with the genitalia of both sexes.** This in no shape or form translates into the church approving of transgender’s.

I have found in my years in this world that the best cure for internal turmoil is faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and the adherence to the teachings of his Church

The statement quoted below from the document
“An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It
concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil.”
Says nothing about ambiguous genitalia it clearly is referring to a transgender condition (hermaphradite is not a transgender condition).
If we are to have a healthy discussion integrity is critical.

 

[estesbob]

The statement quoted below from the document
“An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It
concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil.”
Says nothing about ambiguous genitalia it clearly is referring to a transgender condition (hermaphradite is not a transgender condition).
If we are to have a healthy discussion integrity is critical.

Let’s take it in context:

– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.

But a source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance.

– A provision giving religious superiors administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure. In most cases of expulsion from religious life, the superior must conduct a trial.

– A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal.

– A conclusion that those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of mental instability.

– A conclusion that people who have undergone a sex-change operation cannot enter into a valid marriage, either because they would be marrying someone of the same sex in the eyes of the church or because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows.

– An affirmation of the validity of marriages in which one partner later undergoes the procedure, unless a church tribunal determines that a transsexual disposition predated the wedding ceremony.

 

[Cherry5]

I am the only one in this thread that is posted anything from the Church teachings on this issue. If you have something to post please do so .

What you have posted is neither binding nor does it support your claims and hence irresponsible for you to preach obedience to the sections you pick and choose from ignoring the rest of the document.

 

[estesbob]

What you have posted is neither binding nor does it support your claims and hence irresponsible for you to preach obedience to the sections you pick and choose from ignoring the rest of the document.

If you have something to refute it please post it. I noticed that we have went from “the church has no stand on this” to "what the church says is not binding "

 

[ucfengr]

Being transgender has absolutely nothing to do with sex (the act, not the personality trait). Zero. Nada. Nix. Zip. Nought.

I am transgender. I have never had sex, nor do I plan to. My condition is not one of sexuality, but of identity, of how the brain reacts to hormones, of who you actually are. I knew that I differed on this long before I was even made aware of how “babies are created”. It had, and has, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sex.

I wasn’t referring to the sex act in specific. I was referring to the idea, common in Western culture, that “gender dysphoria” is normal and, perhaps, rational, but other types of “body dysphoria” are not. I fail to see the difference between a desire to remove one’s genitalia to live as the opposite sex and the desire to remove one’s leg to live as an amputee, but proponents of “gender dysphoria” do. The only distinction is that one has to do with sex and the other does not. Ergo, sex trumps all.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Then why are so many in this thread calling a him a her? I was commenting on the statement that the church has no teaching on this. That is factually incorrect. I posted a link to the church’s teaching on this earlier in this thread

They are saying that Leelah has always been a girl and has not decided to change it.

Because the Church does not have a stance on whether transsexualism is legitimate or not. Transsexualism does not state that one can change or choose their gender. Transsexualism is a medical disorder where one develops the wrong genitalia in-utero. Surgery is merely to correct the in-utero error using tissue the body would normally have initially constructed their genitalia based on their gender.

If you wish to believe that gender is entirely dependent on the external appearance of one’s genitalia (or chromosomes or internal organ composition or whatever you want to use as the basis of gender), you are more than free to. But the Church has never definitively stated that the shape of one’s genitalia (or chromosomes or internal organ composition) is the defining factor in one’s gender. In fact, the fact that gender is shown to be present before and during conception and after death in the Theology of the Body should very clearly indicate that there is an infallible definition of one’s gender. It cannot be altered or chosen, period. Even if one is to go into a child’s DNA in-utero and alter their genitalia production, it does not change their gender, even though they would develop reproductive organs of the gender opposite their gender.

I believe transsexualism is legitimate because the experiences of transsexuals that I have known in the LGBT community (having a clear identity of their gender, having it be present unceasing for their entire life, having positive medical responses to hormonal and surgical treatment) are completely in line with Catholic teaching on gender. But every Catholic is free to believe however on this issue. There is no Church teaching on the determination of gender, period. Only that it cannot be chosen or changed.

That is inaccurate, what happens is the brain is sexed incorrectly, for example the brain of an XY person fails to receive enough androgens resulting in the brain developing female or for an XX person to receive enough androgen to the point that the brain develops male. The body is far more malleable than the brain, indeed there is little evidence that the brain can be made to change, only engage in psychological repression which will eventually crack and leave the person worse off than before. Transitioning is the only treatment that has actually been shown to work. By transitioning I refer to HRT and transitioning socially to present as their gender, perhaps SRS if truly necessary.

Unfortunately the Priests you talked to were not aware of Catholic teaching. And of course anecdotal evidence proves nothing. The Church does allow surgery in the extremely rare cases where a person is born with the genitalia of both sexes. This in no shape or form translates into the church approving of transgender’s.

I have found in my years in this world that the best cure for internal turmoil is faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and the adherence to the teachings of his Church

What happens when faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and adherence to the teachings of conservative American Catholics does not help inner turmoil? Perhaps they should follow what the Church actually teaches?

 

[Cherry5]

Let’s take it in context:

– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.

But a source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance.

– A provision giving religious superiors administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure. In most cases of expulsion from religious life, the superior must conduct a trial.

– A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal.

– A conclusion that those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of mental instability.

– A conclusion that people who have undergone a sex-change operation cannot enter into a valid marriage, either because they would be marrying someone of the same sex in the eyes of the church or because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows.

– An affirmation of the validity of marriages in which one partner later undergoes the procedure, unless a church tribunal determines that a transsexual disposition predated the wedding ceremony.

This document is dated 2000, Much progress has been made since then with respect to treatment as well as determination of success. We are in 2015 clearly this is outdated information.

The fact that this is a growing concern and that the Church has not give a more clear direction about this over the last 15 years is a concern as this secret document is being used out of context. How do you know if there is not another sub secretum document that updates this one? and that the priests and theologian I referred to have access to. after all it is a sub secretum document.

The Church does not allow married men to become priests, does this make marriage wrong?

 

[estesbob]

This document is dated 2000, Much progress has been made since then with respect to treatment as well as determination of success. We are in 2015 clearly this is outdated information.

The fact that this is a growing concern and that the Church has not give a more clear direction about this over the last 15 years is a concern as this secret document is being used out of context. How do you know if there is not another sub secretum document that updates this one? and that the priests and theologian I referred to have access to. after all it is a sub secretum document.

The Church does not allow married men to become priests, does this make marriage wrong?

If you heave something to refute it please post it.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Church does not allow married men to become priests, does this make marriage wrong?

Yes the Church does and continues to from the time of Christ, so no to the second part.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

It is a blatant attempt to shut down the discussion. And of course,as always, those who want to shut it down are " doing it for the children. "

If the discussion can not be held with charity, then it needs to be shut down. I don’t have a gender identity disorder, but I do have depression and I have tried to kill myself in the past. Some of these comments on this thread are offensive to me as a person suffering with the mental illness of depression and as a suicide survivor due to the callous way they show indifference to the mental health issues this child suffered that we all can agree about regardless of where one’s stance is on gender identity.

This thread isn’t about someone wanting someone else to pay for surgery that will on the surface turn them from one gender to another, its about someone whose mental illness or illnesses were so severe and/or left untreated that she killed herself. She wanting to be a she instead of a he is rather a minor issue when compared with she wanting to and actually killing herself.

 

[RACJ]

This document is dated 2000, Much progress has been made since then with respect to treatment as well as determination of success. We are in 2015 clearly this is outdated information.

The fact that this is a growing concern and that the Church has not give a more clear direction about this over the last 15 years is a concern as this secret document is being used out of context. How do you know if there is not another sub secretum document that updates this one? and that the priests and theologian I referred to have access to. after all it is a sub secretum document.

The Church does not allow married men to become priests, does this make marriage wrong?

Sorry, but that is a shallow argument. This is akin to saying, "The church does not allow a married man to have sex with his neighbor’s wife, does this make marriage wrong?
I don’t care if it’s 1900, 2000, 2015 or 2030. The desire to “reassign” one’s sexuality through body mutilation will always be a psychological disorder. This statement does not imply hatred of those who suffer this problem; it is merely an acknowledgement that there is a very serious problem. :sad_yes:

 

[Cherry5]

Yes the Church does and continues to from the time of Christ, so no to the second part.

I disagree, it is not the normal practice today in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[RACJ]

If the discussion can not be held with charity, then it needs to be shut down. I don’t have a gender identity disorder, but I do have depression and I have tried to kill myself in the past. Some of these comments on this thread are offensive to me as a person suffering with the mental illness of depression and as a suicide survivor due to the callous way they show indifference to the mental health issues this child suffered that we all can agree about regardless of where one’s stance is on gender identity.

This thread isn’t about someone wanting someone else to pay for surgery that will on the surface turn them from one gender to another, its about someone whose mental illness or illnesses were so severe and/or left untreated that she killed herself. She wanting to be a she instead of a he is rather a minor issue when compared with she wanting to and actually killing herself.

Very well said, Sir. Re your own history of depression, I am certainly thrilled that you (or God) overcame your demons, and that you are here to continually contribute to this valuable website.

 

[Cherry5]

Sorry, but that is a shallow argument. This is akin to saying, "The church does not allow a married man to have sex with his neighbor’s wife, does this make marriage wrong?
I don’t care if it’s 1900, 2000, 2015 or 2030. **The desire to “reassign” one’s sexuality through body mutilation will always be a psychological disorder. **This statement does not imply hatred of those who suffer this problem; it is merely an acknowledgement that there is a very serious problem. :sad_yes:

This is your opinion, the medical community thinks differently. To me what the medical community thinks is more important. At the end of the day your stance does not alleviate suffering.

 

[cjforJesus]

If the discussion can not be held with charity, then it needs to be shut down. I don’t have a gender identity disorder, but I do have depression and I have tried to kill myself in the past. Some of these comments on this thread are offensive to me as a person suffering with the mental illness of depression and as a suicide survivor due to the callous way they show indifference to the mental health issues this child suffered that we all can agree about regardless of where one’s stance is on gender identity.

This thread isn’t about someone wanting someone else to pay for surgery that will on the surface turn them from one gender to another, its about someone whose mental illness or illnesses were so severe and/or left untreated that she killed herself. She wanting to be a she instead of a he is rather a minor issue when compared with she wanting to and actually killing herself.

I still feel terribly sorry for these parents as well as this confused young man. His angry suicide note berating his kind parents attempts to help him just show how deeply this sickness is ingrained in our society. When someone sees societal acceptance of depraved behavior and thoughts it makes it seem all the more acceptable. I think so called gender dysphoria is a deeply rooted psychological issue that is earning surgeons millions of dollars in an attempt to execute surgical skills to cure a psychological problem.To actually gut a penis and turn it inside out in order to make it a vagina seems like the most absurd thing ever. More absurd is trying to take tissue to fashion a penis for a woman who does not want to have vagina or uterus. One has to wonder if some of these psychological aberrations may have demonic influence as they are geared toward hatred of the human body and mutilation.

 

[gracepoole]

It is a blatant attempt to shut down the discussion. And of course,as always, those who want to shut it down are " doing it for the children. "

Respectfully, this sounds like paranoid logic. Even when others clearly explain this isn’t their motivation, you still maintain that it is. That kind of claim makes an honest dialogue absolutely impossible.

 

[Path_Finder]

I’d respect everyone’s feelings on this, word conversation in a way that is non-offensive. I don’t understand the problem discussed exactly but most if not all of us have suffered from discrimination I think. It is a terrible thing and it can be over a multitude of issues, not just what we see as being most common.