Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[Rin]

It is my sincere prayer the parents and therapists don’t come across this thread and see people accusing the therapists of quackery, the parents of abuse, and saying blood is on both their hands.

Compassion runs both ways.

I am sorry, but a professional who indulges in “reparative” “therapy” acts contrary to medical knowledge, contrary to medical ethics, and often even contrary to law or at least professional guidelines. Their “therapies” have been proven to adversely affect patients, after decades of experience. I will not hesitate in identifying these professionals for what they are - quacks. Thousands of people have committed suicide after encountering such “therapists”, so no, I will not be silenced by a tu quoque about compassion on this. It is my sincere prayer that said professionals read my comments.

I am indeed more hesitant regarding the parents, but from the young woman’s own description in her suicide letter, I personally cannot describe a situation where a child is cut off from any and all contact with friends as anything but abusive. Whether it was intentionally so from the parents’ side, is of course another issue, which sadly only affects their own culpability, not their daughter’s life. It’s interesting how many people online, even some in this thread, directly or indirectly blame the daughter for her own suicide, while criticism of her parents’ actions, and (even less controversial) criticism of her “therapists”, is seen as off limits.

 

[Thorolfr]

It doesn’t seem like the surgery stops them from having depression or suicide.

Don’t sleep with people who have AIDS and you won’t get it (unless you get a bad blood transfusion or something). The effectiveness of condoms is overstated. It is still quite possible to get AIDS or any STD when wearing a condom. In that situation the couple doesn’t have intercourse until the std is removed. If the person doesn’t sleep with people with AIDS, they won’t die from it. Surely protecting their life is more important than risking it by participating in intercourse that will always have some risk of catching something that could kill them.

In Africa, about 60% of the people with HIV are women and many of them got it from their husbands. So should they not sleep with their husbands? Wouldn’t it be better (if they discover that their husband has HIV) to use a condom?

You also say that it doesn’t **seem **that surgery stops trans people from having depression or suicide. Maybe we should find out. As I already posted:

The single study McHugh cites for opposing gender-confirming surgery is nearly 40 years old, and he misreads its conclusions, failing to note that its authors explicitly state that “no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment” in improving the lives of transgender people; McHugh ignores a growing (though still small) body of evidence suggesting that medical transition has a positive impact on the wellbeing of transgender people.

slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/06/16/the_wall_street_journal_displays_shocking_ignorance_about_lgbtq_issues.html

 

[estesbob]

So is a girl who is a tomboy (defined in Wikipedia as “a girl who exhibits characteristics or behaviors considered typical of a boy, including wearing masculine clothing and engaging in games and activities that are physical in nature and are considered in many cultures to be the domain of boys”) committing a sin of some sort and giving in to some sort of immoral temptation?

No.

 

[cena]

In Africa, about 60% of the people with HIV are women and many of them got it from their husbands. So should they not sleep with their husbands? Wouldn’t it be better (if they discover that their husband has HIV) to use a condom?

You also say that it doesn’t **seem **that surgery stops trans people from having depression or suicide. Maybe we should find out. As I already posted:

slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/06/16/the_wall_street_journal_displays_shocking_ignorance_about_lgbtq_issues.html

chastityproject.com/qa/whats-wrong-with-shipping-condoms-overseas-to-help-with-the-aids-epidemic/
Condoms haven’t seemed to help.

 

[shelby_sun]

I am sorry, but a professional who indulges in “reparative” “therapy” acts contrary to medical knowledge, contrary to medical ethics, and often even contrary to law or at least professional guidelines. Their “therapies” have been proven to adversely affect patients, after decades of experience. I will not hesitate in identifying these professionals for what they are - quacks. Thousands of people have committed suicide after encountering such “therapists”, so no, I will not be silenced by a tu quoque about compassion on this. It is my sincere prayer that said professionals read my comments.

I am indeed more hesitant regarding the parents, but from the young woman’s own description in her suicide letter, I personally cannot describe a situation where a child is cut off from any and all contact with friends as anything but abusive. Whether it was intentionally so from the parents’ side, is of course another issue, which sadly only affects their own culpability, not their daughter’s life. It’s interesting how many people online, even some in this thread, directly or indirectly blame the daughter for her own suicide, while criticism of her parents’ actions, and (even less controversial) criticism of her “therapists”, is seen as off limits./QUOTE

I do not agree with the parents choices, but I wonder how you handle this issue with your daughter?

 

[SuperLuigi]

=SMGS127;12620915]I’m advocating banning conversion “therapy” for MINORS. Read the post you quoted.

Only if you ask nicely.

No one in the country is advocating for the banning of quack therapy for adults who can make free choices.

Well, it has worked for some adults, whether people like it or not.

But forcible conversion therapy of minors IS child abuse.

I would agree.

 

[cena]

In Africa, about 60% of the people with HIV are women and many of them got it from their husbands. So should they not sleep with their husbands? Wouldn’t it be better (if they discover that their husband has HIV) to use a condom?

You also say that it doesn’t **seem **that surgery stops trans people from having depression or suicide. Maybe we should find out. As I already posted:

slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/06/16/the_wall_street_journal_displays_shocking_ignorance_about_lgbtq_issues.html

Where is the evidence that suggests there is a positive effect? They don’t cite anything.

They have to abstain from sex. Condoms are not as effective as they are advertised

 

[WonderAndAwe]

In Africa, about 60% of the people with HIV are women and many of them got it from their husbands. So should they not sleep with their husbands? Wouldn’t it be better (if they discover that their husband has HIV) to use a condom?

You also say that it doesn’t **seem **that surgery stops trans people from having depression or suicide. Maybe we should find out. As I already posted:

slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/06/16/the_wall_street_journal_displays_shocking_ignorance_about_lgbtq_issues.html

Slate is a terrible news source.

 

[Rin]

It doesn’t seem like the surgery stops them from having depression or suicide.

No, but it drastically reduces depression and suicide in the individuals who need it.

The study so often fallaciously quoted by Paul McHugh does not establish anything about the usefulness of the procedure, since the controls were non-transsexual. All it establishes, is that genital surgery doesn’t give perfect results; transgender people will still often need therapy post-surgically, to a higher extent than the general population. However, clinical experience shows that this depends a lot on the clients’ age - people who transitioned at a younger age generally also have less mental issues. Most of the time, these mental issues are secondary - not just from bullying, societal attitudes and so on, but from dysphoria itself. Living with gender dysphoria is torture, and it could drive a person mad, even living alone on a desert island. Reducing (or, if lucky, eliminating) dysphoria through hormonal intervention already in a patient’s teenage years will greatly reduce the chance of such secondary issues.

As an illustration, let’s say we got a new treatment form for some kind of cancer, and made an outcome study with non-cancerous controls. Most probably, the treated individuals would still have higher mortality than those who never had cancer. This should be obvious. Yet, it should also be obvious that if the cancer treatment lowers mortality compared to no treatment, then it is effective, just not perfect. We would not stop treating cancer on the basis that some patients still die after treatment.

If the study were to be used as an attack on the procedure, then the controls would have to be untreated transsexuals. There are other such studies, and they consistently show that treatment (hormone replacement and/or surgery) lowers mortality significantly, improves quality of life significantly, and alleviates psychological suffering significantly.

 

[Thorolfr]

Where is the evidence that suggests there is a positive effect? They don’t cite anything.

They have to abstain from sex. Condoms are not as effective as they are advertised

That’s usually because some people don’t use them properly.

 

[Thorolfr]

No, but it drastically reduces depression and suicide in the individuals who need it.

The study so often fallaciously quoted by Paul McHugh does not establish anything about the usefulness of the procedure, since the controls were non-transsexual. All it establishes, is that genital surgery doesn’t give perfect results; transgender people will still often need therapy post-surgically, to a higher extent than the general population. However, clinical experience shows that this depends a lot on the clients’ age - people who transitioned at a younger age generally also have less mental issues. Most of the time, these mental issues are secondary - not just from bullying, societal attitudes and so on, but from dysphoria itself. Living with gender dysphoria is torture, and it could drive a person mad, even living alone on a desert island. Reducing (or, if lucky, eliminating) dysphoria through hormonal intervention already in a patient’s teenage years will greatly reduce the chance of such secondary issues.

As an illustration, let’s say we got a new treatment form for some kind of cancer, and made an outcome study with non-cancerous controls. Most probably, the treated individuals would still have higher mortality than those who never had cancer. This should be obvious. Yet, it should also be obvious that if the cancer treatment lowers mortality compared to no treatment, then it is effective, just not perfect. We would not stop treating cancer on the basis that some patients still die after treatment.

If the study were to be used as an attack on the procedure, then the controls would have to be untreated transsexuals. There are other such studies, and they consistently show that treatment (hormone replacement and/or surgery) lowers mortality significantly, improves quality of life significantly, and alleviates psychological suffering significantly.

 

[Rin]

I do not agree with the parents choices, but I wonder how you handle this issue with your daughter?

I take it you mean children in general, since I don’t have a daughter

I would recommend my parents’ course of action, though I was adult at the time of coming out, so the details are obviously different than from a teenager.

First of all, they told me clearly that they loved me, and wanted the best for me. While I’m sure they’ve had some battles to fight in accepting this, they have been exemplary, and they’ve never tried to force me into doing or being something I am not, neither before nor after coming out. In childhood, when they first noticed that I was different (though at that time transgenderism wasn’t the first thing people thought of), they tried gentle guidance but never forced. When I insisted on playing with dolls instead of cars, they let me do that once I had established that I indeed wouldn’t have it any other way. The same went for choice of friends, and so on.

Secondly, when I needed a therapist, they helped me get in contact with someone who is nationally recognized for being competent on gender identity. Not some ideologically-affiliated therapist who would bend to their will, but someone with actual competence. As a consequence, after a few months of therapy, I started hormonal treatment. They accepted that in an exemplary manner, though of course they had hoped there would be another way. Everyone does - including the patient, in most cases.

Lastly, and this is not something I can nor will expect, but for which I am still immensely grateful, they help economically. After a decade of recurring depressions and other problems secondary to the dysphoria, I am not what anyone would call wealthy, and my country’s welfare covers zero of the treatment, except a small portion of therapy costs.

Were it not for their assistance, emotionally, practically as well as economically, I would not know what to do. So essentially, I would tell any parent of a transgender child who asks for guidance to look to my parents for advice.

 

[shelby_sun]

I take it you mean children in general, since I don’t have a daughter

I would recommend my parents’ course of action, though I was adult at the time of coming out, so the details are obviously different than from a teenager.

First of all, they told me clearly that they loved me, and wanted the best for me. While I’m sure they’ve had some battles to fight in accepting this, they have been exemplary, and they’ve never tried to force me into doing or being something I am not, neither before nor after coming out. In childhood, when they first noticed that I was different (though at that time transgenderism wasn’t the first thing people thought of), they tried gentle guidance but never forced. When I insisted on playing with dolls instead of cars, they let me do that once I had established that I indeed wouldn’t have it any other way. The same went for choice of friends, and so on.

Secondly, when I needed a therapist, they helped me get in contact with someone who is nationally recognized for being competent on gender identity. Not some ideologically-affiliated therapist who would bend to their will, but someone with actual competence. As a consequence, after a few months of therapy, I started hormonal treatment. They accepted that in an exemplary manner, though of course they had hoped there would be another way. Everyone does - including the patient, in most cases.

Lastly, and this is not something I can nor will expect, but for which I am still immensely grateful, they help economically. After a decade of recurring depressions and other problems secondary to the dysphoria, I am not what anyone would call wealthy, and my country’s welfare covers zero of the treatment, except a small portion of therapy costs.

Were it not for their assistance, emotionally, practically as well as economically, I would not know what to do. So essentially, I would tell any parent of a transgender child who asks for guidance to look to my parents for advice.

Your parents sound like wonderful people. I cannot imagine how difficult that must have been for all you especially with so little understanding and acceptance still in the the world, and this worst part about it is that lack of tolerance is too often in the name of God.
Thank you for posting, you can bring much needed insight to this topic. I only wish this teenager realized that there are people such as your parents that could have helped her through this, although I am sure they would have been hard to find on her own.

 

[Cherry5]

This is really sad, and I truly wish someone would have told her there is always hope, and helped her survive just a few more years until she was free of her abusive parents. She was so young, and could have lived a long, good life. But yet, I know how difficult it can be, having attempted suicide at age 19 myself, also predominantly because of gender dysphoria.

Instead of convincing her there is hope, the “therapists” who were supposed to help, drove her to suicide by allying with the parents instead of the patient, by practicing quackery instead of therapy, and by letting ideology overshadow reality. They have her blood on their hands.

Lastly, it is my sincere prayer that no transgender youth stumbles upon this thread. It is triggering enough for a 30-something transgender woman to read some of these posts, far less someone in their vulnerable mid-teens. I sometimes wish this topic was banned entirely on CAF, to be honest.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon her. May she rest in peace. Amen.

I have read the moderators post, however I do agree with Rin, A lot of what is being said on this thread could trigger transgender people of any age for that matter. I shudder to think of what the status of transgender people would be if the rest of society thought like some of the posters here.
I have spoken with several priests on this matter, all of whom have said that the Church has not taken a stand on this matter, when I read some of these comments I have to remind myself that these are not necessarily the Church’s position. I know several Catholic Transgender people who have walked away from the Catholic faith because of attitudes and opinions expressed here. It is important to separate opinions expressed here from Church’s teaching. The fact is a lot of Catholics are more compassionate than what is sampled here.
Most of the attempts at suicide by Transgender people is due to exactly the same type of treatment experienced by this girl. Certainly this is not working. The Clarke Institute in Toronto has experimented with a lot of the therapies being suggested here and have concluded that they have been ineffective. This institute is now known as CAMH and has a more supportive protocol which has saved lives and is far more effective.
We have a long way to go in terms of Transgender care even for those that are on hormones and/or GRS, in many cases on going therapy is necessary as the loss of family and friends not to mention jobs have a major psychological impact.

 

[Darryl1958]

Suicide can be a political statement only to the extent that the person committing suicide knows that he or she will be hurting the ones who are left behind.

If the parents did not love their child, for them, the problem would already be fixed by the suicide of their embarrassment.

I have always appreciated the words of Camus that that suicide is the ultimate question. His point of view was that everybody knows that life isn’t worth it, so the question becomes what to live for, and what to die for.

Jesus had a slightly different point of view that to die for a friend is the ultimate love.

I guess the obverse of that would be that to die to spite someone who loves you is the ultimate expression of hatred against them.

But to die to spite someone who just doesn’t care is about a futile statement as can be made.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

What even separates trangenderism from any other “I think my body is the wrong one, not my brain” mental disorders? Why is it okay to lob off perfectly healthy genitalia and resculpt it into an ersatz but not, say lob of a healthy arm or a leg that someone feels shouldn’t be there. Why are we supposed to affirm to a man that he’s truly supposed to be a woman but not tell a walking skeleton that she’s morbidly obese? Or to agree with that idiot who thinks they were born the wrong ethnicity because that apparently exists and it’s really really stupid?

Is it just because of the crazy LGBT propaganda and its chokehold on the culture, is it because our sexualization of our culture or what?

 

[estesbob]

Vatican says ‘sex-change’ operation does not change person’s gender

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/09/vatican-says-sex-change-operation-does.html

 

[shelby_sun]

Vatican says ‘sex-change’ operation does not change person’s gender

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/09/vatican-says-sex-change-operation-does.html

Ok but it might change their mental state and will to live; plus if the transgender is not Catholic I hardly think they care what the Vatican says.

 

[cena]

Ok but it might change their mental state and will to live; plus if the transgender is not Catholic I hardly think they care what the Vatican says.

What about the anorexic people who think that becoming skinny by starving themselves will make them happy? Should we accept it as an alternative lifestyle because the person is convinced starving themself will make them less suicidal?

 

[estesbob]

Ok but it might change their mental state and will to live; plus if the transgender is not Catholic I hardly think they care what the Vatican says.

I was replying to a poster who claimed the Church is has not taken a stand on transgenderism. Note that a couple posters and said we should not even be allowed to discuss this as it might offend somebody who considers themselves transgendered. Seems more and more the modern left believes the only acceptable response to their views is to sit down and shut up