Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[SWolf]

there is hope, the “therapists” who were supposed to help, drove her to suicide by allying with the parents instead of the patient, by practicing quackery instead of therapy, and by letting ideology overshadow reality. They have her blood on their hands.

Lastly, it is my sincere prayer that no transgender youth stumbles upon this thread. It is triggering enough for a 30-something transgender woman to read some of these posts, far less someone in their vulnerable mid-teens. I sometimes wish this topic was banned entirely on CAF, to be honest.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon her. May she rest in peace. Amen.

It is my sincere prayer the parents and therapists don’t come across this thread and see people accusing the therapists of quackery, the parents of abuse, and saying blood is on both their hands.

Compassion runs both ways.

 

[cena]

But chromosomes can get screwed up in many ways. There are XO people, XXY people, XXX people, people with chimerism (both XX and XY), etc. I hesitate to suggest anything so fallible to a birth defect can be representative of something so infallible as one’s gender.

We are getting to the point genetically where parents can force their child in-utero to make the genitalia of their choosing – does this mean that the parents are also changing the child’s gender?

The people who want to change their gender usually don’t have those different chromosomes.

I’m pretty sure parents choosing the sex of their child is unethical

 

[Thorolfr]

This is really sad, and I truly wish someone would have told her there is always hope, and helped her survive just a few more years until she was free of her abusive parents. She was so young, and could have lived a long, good life. But yet, I know how difficult it can be, having attempted suicide at age 19 myself, also predominantly because of gender dysphoria.

Instead of convincing her there is hope, the “therapists” who were supposed to help, drove her to suicide by allying with the parents instead of the patient, by practicing quackery instead of therapy, and by letting ideology overshadow reality. They have her blood on their hands.

Lastly, it is my sincere prayer that no transgender youth stumbles upon this thread. It is triggering enough for a 30-something transgender woman to read some of these posts, far less someone in their vulnerable mid-teens. I sometimes wish this topic was banned entirely on CAF, to be honest.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon her. May she rest in peace. Amen.

When it comes to issues of gender and sexuality, I don’t pretend to be completely certain about what is right and wrong and what is moral and immoral. I do believe, however, that these issues are more complicated and quite a bit messier than what Catholic doctrines or teachings allow. My own Lutheran denomination (ELCA) continues to sit on the fence and has failed to reach any consensus about these topics.

But I think that we can all agree that this story about Leelah is incredibly sad. Anytime a young person or anyone else commits suicide, it is always a tragedy, in this case, not only for Leelah herself, but also for her parents, the driver whose truck hit her and for all of us. May she rest in peace.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTE

In general there has been a very good discussion going on this thread and I encourage it to continue. Since this thread is primarily concerned with morals and charity it is very relevant to Catholic ministry and belongs on CAF. So it isn’t going to be closed or banned.

I would rather not ban any more topics in the In the News sub-forums than what has been established as globally CAF banned topics (see the Banned Topics List in the Rules of the Road forum)

All members here, no matter on what side of an issue you are on, should post charitably at all times. Also be reminded not to attack anyone, that would include the therapists in this news story, the young man who committed suicide, other religions, and each other.

Remember to charitably discuss the issues, not each other nor how each other post.

All are welcome to post here, no matter who they are as long as they follow the forum rules (see my signature for more information on the rules)

Send me a PM if you have any questions.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Hopefully my last post on this thread. We should not cause pain to any person who is suffering, either by comments or actions. I stick to my opinion that transgenderism (is that a word?) is a psychological abnormality. It is naïve to try and claim that all the pain that comes with that condition is caused by others or “society.”

Having said that, I do suspect the family played a role, quite possibly a big role in this suicide. There may have been open disgust, rejection, even hatred. Don’t count it out. Just because someone calls him or herself a Christian doesn’t mean he/she lives it out, frankly there is very little guarantee of that. Many use it as a tool of self-justification, often in ugly ways. If he was in an unhealthy or abusive environment that could have triggered the condition in the first place. It could have developed as sort of a defense mechanism, a resistance to the parents, who knows. I am not a expert. It is just something to think about.

His friends who were supportive of it were probably equally self-motivated and emotionally confused. Things don’t get to suicide without a lot going wrong, everybody failing the kid at crucial points, because they don’t see the danger clearly and/or they are stuck in their own motives; essentially the kid is a pawn here, and a pretty helpless one at that.

God bless.

 

[cena]

We are discussing issues related to the suicide. Were we talking with a person who had these issues, I am sure each of us would approach the conversation differently.

When people are discussing an issue, they must put aside many of their own feelings, which might otherwise get in the way. For example, in discussing the *issue *of porn addiction, people would talk very differently than they would if someone came to them and said they had that type of problem.

If we allow our feelings to interfere with the discussion, ideas can get out of place. The Church teaches that euthanasia is a sin. It is also illegal in most states. If a discussion about the law were to take placr, it would certainly sound unfeeling to someone who had perhaps made a decision in a place where it would be legal to do to to have a doctor take immoral steps to end a suffering loved one’s life. This is why we discuss policy and morality in impersonal ways, but with people who have *personal *sityations, we have completely different conversations, much more sensitive conversations.

This is actually a phenomena understood in psychology. (I will try to find an article I read about this.) A good example is when Cindy Sheehan, whose son was killed in Iraq, started protesting against the war. People could not discuss the resumption of hostilities with her or near her, because her emotional involvement was such that that would have been insensitive.

In short, the fact that I am polite to a man I know to be an adulterer does not mean I cannot in another venue advocating making adultery illegal as it once was.

He was male. The is a fact. Hormonal treatment and mutilation of his body would not have changed that fact. If I met a diagnosed mentally ill person who insisted he was Napoleon, I would not refer to him as the Emperor, either.

Apparently you missed the post I made previous to the one In which I answered your post, in which I pointed out that the young man’s causing someone else to kill him by stepping out in front of a truck probably caused a lot of emotional damage to that driver, and his posts about his parents which he timed to show up after his death on the internet for all the world to see was rather manipulative.

 

[Ositokc]

A child takes their own life and your response is “he could have moved out and chosen to live his deviant lifestyle”?

Comments like these are the very reason I’ve become disillusioned with the Church. I pray any children out there with gender issues don’t come across this thread. Shame on anyone who isn’t approaching this tragedy with anything other than kindness.

Very well said.

Eternal peace unto her soul

 

[Thorolfr]

He was male. The is a fact. Hormonal treatment and mutilation of his body would not have changed that fact. If I met a diagnosed mentally ill person who insisted he was Napoleon, I would not refer to him as the Emperor, either.

There are many people who think that gender and gender identity should be binary (male or female, masculine or feminine) and that everyone’s gender and gender identity must fit neatly into one box or the other.

The same goes for sexual orientation. Some people think that any person who is biologically male should only be attracted to someone who is biologically female.

But in fact, everything is much more complicated than this binary model of sexuality and gender. Most people fall along a continuum or spectrum. Some people who are biologically male and are in terms of their sexuality very heterosexual, might also act very masculine. But some people who are biologically male and mostly heterosexual might perhaps act to varying degrees a little feminine. Some people who are biologically male but who are mostly or completely homosexual and mostly attracted to other men in term of sexual orientation, might act very masculine or some might act very feminine.

Some people who are biologically female and are very or mostly heterosexual in terms of sexual orientation, might to varying degrees be and act very feminine. But some mostly or completely heterosexual women might (to varying degrees) act rather masculine (tomboy). Some lesbians are very feminine (femme), but some are very masculine (butch).

The truth is that neither sexuality nor gender identity are completely binary, no matter what some people believe. They both fall along a continuum and biological gender does not always match up neatly with gender identity or with sexual orientation. Catholic doctrines and teachings do not reflect this complexity.

 

[cena]

There are many people who think that gender and gender identity should be binary (male or female, masculine or feminine) and that everyone’s gender and gender identity must fit neatly into one box or the other.

The same goes for sexual orientation. Some people think that any person who is biologically male should only be attracted to someone who is biologically female.

But in fact, everything is much more complicated than this binary model of sexuality and gender. Most people fall along a continuum or spectrum. Some people who are biologically male and are in terms of their sexuality very heterosexual, might also act very masculine. But some people who are biologically male and mostly heterosexual might perhaps act to varying degrees a little feminine. Some people who are biologically male but who are mostly or completely homosexual and mostly attracted to other men in term of sexual orientation, might act very masculine or some might act very feminine.

Some people who are biologically female and are very or mostly heterosexual in terms of sexual orientation, might to varying degrees be and act very feminine. But some mostly or completely heterosexual women might (to varying degrees) act rather masculine (tomboy). Some lesbians are very feminine (femme), but some are very masculine (butch).

The truth is that neither sexuality nor gender identity are completely binary, no matter what some people believe. They both fall along a continuum and biological gender does not always match up neatly with gender identity or with sexual orientation.

No matter how masculine or feminine they are, they are still the sex they were born. They might be a girly man or extremely masculine, but they are still a man. To call them a woman because they are a feminine man is just wrong (not factual). They can go through all the hormonal therapy, surgery, etc. to the point where they might feel like the opposite sex, but they are still the sex they are born with(like with DNA).

 

[estesbob]

There are many people who think that gender and gender identity should be binary (male or female, masculine or feminine) and that everyone’s gender and gender identity must fit neatly into one box or the other.

The same goes for sexual orientation. Some people think that any person who is biologically male should only be attracted to someone who is biologically female.

But in fact, everything is much more complicated than this binary model of sexuality and gender. Most people fall along a continuum or spectrum. Some people who are biologically male and are in terms of their sexuality very heterosexual, might also act very masculine. But some people who are biologically male and mostly heterosexual might perhaps act to varying degrees a little feminine. Some people who are biologically male but who are mostly or completely homosexual and mostly attracted to other men in term of sexual orientation, might act very masculine or some might act very feminine.

Some people who are biologically female and are very or mostly heterosexual in terms of sexual orientation, might to varying degrees be and act very feminine. But some mostly or completely heterosexual women might (to varying degrees) act rather masculine (tomboy). Some lesbians are very feminine (femme), but some are very masculine (butch).

The truth is that neither sexuality nor gender identity are completely binary, no matter what some people believe. They both fall along a continuum and biological gender does not always match up neatly with gender identity or with sexual orientation. Catholic doctrines and teachings do not reflect this complexity.

Actually that’s not true. Except for extremely rare circumstances when people are born with genitalia for both genders we are born either man or woman. There is no continuum, and gender identity is merely a euphemism for giving into ones sexual temptations . The Church, as with all its teachings on faith and morals , is correct on this and , unlike are separated brethren , has been consistent in its teachings on this since Jesus founded the Church .

 

[Thorolfr]

Actually that’s not true. Except for extremely rare circumstances when people are born with genitalia for both genders we are born either man or woman. There is no continuum, and gender identity is merely a euphemism for giving into ones sexual temptations . The Church, as with all its teachings on faith and morals , is correct on this and , unlike are separated brethren , has been consistent in its teachings on this since Jesus founded the Church .

So is a girl who is a tomboy (defined in Wikipedia as “a girl who exhibits characteristics or behaviors considered typical of a boy, including wearing masculine clothing and engaging in games and activities that are physical in nature and are considered in many cultures to be the domain of boys”) committing a sin of some sort and giving in to some sort of immoral temptation?

 

[cena]

So is a girl who is a tomboy (defined in Wikipedia as “a girl who exhibits characteristics or behaviors considered typical of a boy, including wearing masculine clothing and engaging in games and activities that are physical in nature and are considered in many cultures to be the domain of boys”) committing a sin of some sort and giving in to some sort of immoral temptation?

Saying a girl is a tomboy isn’t the same same. She is not living in denial of the fact she was born a female. She is not trying to change her body to match her idea of herself. Except in extremely rare cases, people are born male or female. No matter how feminine a male is, he is still a male. No matter how masculine a female is, she is still female.

 

[Thorolfr]

Saying a girl is a tomboy isn’t the same same. She is not living in denial of the fact she was born a female. She is not trying to change her body to match her idea of herself. Except in extremely rare cases, people are born male or female. No matter how feminine a male is, he is still a male. No matter how masculine a female is, she is still female.

So it’s always wrong to change the body? Lots of women go to a plastic surgeon nowadays and get a face lift. Is that a sin for them not to want to have wrinkles or if they want to change the shape of their nose a little?

 

[cena]

So it’s always wrong to change the body? Lots of women go to a plastic surgeon nowadays and get a face lift. Is that a sin for them not to want to have wrinkles or if they want to change the shape of their nose a little?

catholic.com/quickquestions/does-the-catholic-church-have-a-stand-on-plastic-surgery
"Plastic surgery would seem to be permitted—even without significant therapeutic effect—provided that it did not damage a significant good and provided that the procedure is not intrinsically immoral.

Plastic surgery would seem to be impermissible if it damaged a good greater than that to be achieved, being venial if the difference in the goods were light and potentially mortal if the difference in the goods were grave.

Goods that could be damaged by undertaking plastic surgery are varied. They might involve harming oneself—one’s own physical, psychological, or spiritual health—or they might involve harming others, such as being financially unable to provide for one’s family in a proper and timely manner."

In sex change surgery they are changing the person’s genitalia

 

[Thorolfr]

catholic.com/quickquestions/does-the-catholic-church-have-a-stand-on-plastic-surgery
"Plastic surgery would seem to be permitted—even without significant therapeutic effect—provided that it did not damage a significant good and provided that the procedure is not intrinsically immoral.

Plastic surgery would seem to be impermissible if it damaged a good greater than that to be achieved, being venial if the difference in the goods were light and potentially mortal if the difference in the goods were grave.

Goods that could be damaged by undertaking plastic surgery are varied. They might involve harming oneself—one’s own physical, psychological, or spiritual health—or they might involve harming others, such as being financially unable to provide for one’s family in a proper and timely manner."

In sex change surgery they are changing the person’s genitalia

Maybe for some people with gender dysphoria, changing the appearance of their body including their genitals is preferable to having them instead suffer from depression or commit suicide. Perhaps a small harm can be allowed to prevent a greater harm.

 

[cena]

Maybe for some people with gender dysphoria, changing the appearance of their body including their genitals is preferable to having them instead suffer from depression or commit suicide. Perhaps a small harm can be allowed to prevent a greater harm.

Statistics say that most people are still depressed after the surgery

 

[shelby_sun]

I will admit I have not read every single post here, but I have read many and it seems some people didn’t read the moderators last post.

I am not an expert on those with transgender issue, but I suffered greatly from depression as a teen, many a day asking God for help because I wanted to die. I had years of therapy and went on to get a psychology degree. Many of you can have all the opinions you want, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about. It might be completely psychological or completely biological, or a combination of the two, but it is real and it needs to be dealt with in a much better way then people do today.

A child took there own life, period. If they were a good person, who helped others, and lived a productive life who really cares if they changed their gender. God knows what they were struggling through, he knew their pain. Do I believe that child is in heaven, absolutely!

 

[Thorolfr]

Maybe for some people with gender dysphoria, changing the appearance of their body including their genitals is preferable to having them instead suffer from depression or commit suicide. Perhaps a small harm can be allowed to prevent a greater harm.

Sometimes we can actually learn valuable things from other cultures. I’ve studied Islamic law, for example, and two well known principles of Islamic law are the following:

1. “A lesser harm [or injury] may be tolerated in order to eliminate a greater harm [or injury]” (al-darar al-ashadd yuzal bi al-darar al-akhaff)
2. “Necessity makes the unlawful lawful” (al-darurat tubih al-mahzurat)

So if allowing transgender persons to change the appearance of their bodies (perhaps something that some might consider a harm) prevents or mitigates the greater harm of severe depression or suicide, then it should be allowed.

Similarly, if using condoms (something that the Catholic Church considers a harm) prevents the spread of AIDS and the possible death of those afflicted (a greater harm), then perhaps condoms should be allowed in some circumstances. Surely an individual’s death is a greater harm than allowing him to do something that temporarily prevents him from procreating.

 

[Thorolfr]

Statistics say that most people are still depressed after the surgery

Perhaps, but they might be less depressed.

 

[cena]

Sometimes we can actually learn valuable things from other cultures. I’ve studied Islamic law, for example, and two well known principles of Islamic law are the following:

1. “A lesser harm [or injury] may be tolerated in order to eliminate a greater harm [or injury]” (al-darar al-ashadd yuzal bi al-darar al-akhaff)
2. “Necessity makes the unlawful lawful” (al-darurat tubih al-mahzurat)

So if allowing transgender persons to change the appearance of their bodies (perhaps something that some might consider a harm) prevents or mitigates the greater harm of severe depression or suicide, then it should be allowed.

Similarly, if using condoms (something that the Catholic Church considers a harm) prevents the spread of AIDS and the possible death of those afflicted (a greater harm), then perhaps condoms should be allowed in some circumstances. Surely an individual’s death is a greater harm than allowing him to do something that prevents him from procreating.

It doesn’t seem like the surgery stops them from having depression or suicide.

Don’t sleep with people who have AIDS and you won’t get it (unless you get a bad blood transfusion or something). The effectiveness of condoms is overstated. It is still quite possible to get AIDS or any STD when wearing a condom. In that situation the couple doesn’t have intercourse until the std is removed. If the person doesn’t sleep with people with AIDS, they won’t die from it. Surely protecting their life is more important than risking it by participating in intercourse that will always have some risk of catching something that could kill them.