Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

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Dawnia said:
To normal people, gender and sex are interchangeable terms. Gender is not seperable from someones sex. So when you claim that gender is not changeable, what you’re really saying is that thoughts overrule biology. When there is a disconnect between thoughts and biology, biology wins everytime. You can surgically make biology appear different, but it doesn’t make it different.
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👍👍👍
 
meltzerboy said:
If you’re talking about cultural reality, there are various cultures which do not have a binary gender model, such as those in India, Nepal, Thailand, and Pakistan. Some have third genders, while others have fourth or fifth genders. Biology relates to sexuality whereas culture relates to gender and gender roles.
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If you were to apply for a Pakistani, Nepali, or Indian passport, how many choices for sex/gender does it list?

Edit - I could see 3, just because bureaucratic realities necessitate being able to distinguish between men and women and people who’ve been surgically altered to resemble the opposite sex, but 4 or 5 seems odd.
 
ucfengr said:
If you were to apply for a Pakistani, Nepali, or Indian passport, how many choices for sex/gender does it list?
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It is an important question. When buying a card for the birth of a child of friends from the subcontinent, if the choices are not exclusive to Itsa Boy! or Itsa Girl!, we really need to know what other possibilities that there are, in order not to appear culturally insensitive.
 
meltzerboy said:
If you’re talking about cultural reality, there are various cultures which do not have a binary gender model, such as those in India, Nepal, Thailand, and Pakistan. Some have third genders, while others have fourth or fifth genders. Biology relates to sexuality whereas culture relates to gender and gender roles.
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I’m not sure this is quite true. If you read about it, those “non-binary” models are generally treated with pity and/or scorn, if not outright physical or even legal abuse. Most really don’t think of them as a legitimate “third, fourth or fifth” gender.
 
Dawnia said:
To normal people, gender and sex are interchangeable terms. Gender is not seperable from someones sex. So when you claim that gender is not changeable, what you’re really saying is that thoughts overrule biology. When there is a disconnect between thoughts and biology, biology wins everytime. You can surgically make biology appear different, but it doesn’t make it different.
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“To normal people”??
 
Normal is a term derived from mathematics. It is as neutral a term as standard deviation, mode, and root mean square.
 
estesbob said:
Is the term "normal " now condidered offensive?
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Take it down a notch. People can ask genuine questions without intentionally trying to ruffle your non-PC feathers. Normal can be used to describe a myriad of things so trying to clarify language is actually quite a helpful process in online discussions.
Dawnia said:
Normal people as in regular ol’ generic people without specialized education or knowledge. 😃
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Ah, I see. 🙂
 
estesbob said:
God forbid somebody should use reality as a basis for determining gender !
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Indeed! 👍

I’ve been watching your interlocutors here in this thread estesbob and it’s amazing how reluctant they are to debate this issue in the context of scripture or official Church teaching.

Instead they appeal to the canon of psychiatry and the zeitgeist of subjective opinion.

The Op is an argumentum ad baculum plain and simple.
And it’s par for the course for the LGBTQ lobby.
…Change your moral/biblical worldview or else there will be more suicides just like this!
 
Lion_IRC said:
Indeed! 👍

I’ve been watching your interlocutors here in this thread estesbob and it’s amazing how reluctant they are to debate this issue in the context of scripture or official Church teaching.

Instead they appeal to the canon of psychiatry and the zeitgeist of subjective opinion.

The Op is an argumentum ad baculum plain and simple.
And it’s par for the course for the LGBTQ lobby.
…Change your moral/biblical worldview or else there will be more suicides just like this!
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It seems to me that the point made thus far by estesbob’s “interlocutors” is that the Church doesn’t have an official teaching on some of this content. Kind of hard to reference what doesn’t exist.
 
gracepoole said:
It seems to me that the point made thus far by estesbob’s “interlocutors” is that the Church doesn’t have an official teaching on some of this content. Kind of hard to reference what doesn’t exist.
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And because it doesn’t, the interlocutors latch on to the canon of PC psychiatry and the zeitgeist of subjective opinion and calling this the truth.

And zeitgeist are never lasting. Always fickle.
Calling things that have worked for ages “societal constructs” and working to abolish them for “better, more inclusive ones” is in itself a societal construct and must be met with the same “end ALL the constructs” mentality. It is a fallacious appeal to emotion, feelings and “Truthiness.”
 
gracepoole said:
It seems to me that the point made thus far by estesbob’s “interlocutors” is that the Church doesn’t have an official teaching on some of this content. Kind of hard to reference what doesn’t exist.
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I provided references to Church teaching.Just what is it about "gender is immutable " that is so hard to grasp?
 
estesbob said:
I provided references to Church teaching.Just what is it about "gender is immutable " that is so hard to grasp?
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My guess is folks are trying to say “we agree because gender is set in stone IN THE MIND and the body can be modified to fit it if need be. Quit saying its defined by the body because that makes trans people feel bad about themselves because thats wrong because feelings and identity.”
 
It’s a shame that Rin felt the need to leave this topic. Rin was one of the only people not letting this get so out of hand.

A child is dead. And she’s not the only one. Again, I sincerely hope no children with gender issues finds this topic. So much ignorance. It’s embarrassing. In fact, I think I’ll follow Rin out the door.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I’m not sure this is quite true. If you read about it, those “non-binary” models are generally treated with pity and/or scorn, if not outright physical or even legal abuse. Most really don’t think of them as a legitimate “third, fourth or fifth” gender.
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Not exactly. In fact, third genders in India, I believe, are treated by Muslims with more respect both socioculturally and religiously than people who are gay. For example, male transgenders are not condemned by Sharia law whereas (active) male homosexuals are, and culturally they serve a feminine role in the household. There was a fascinating television program about this multi-gender cultural phenomenon a few years ago–unfortunately, I can’t recall the name of it.
 
estesbob said:
I provided references to Church teaching.Just what is it about "gender is immutable " that is so hard to grasp?
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I think the Church is pretty clear on this issue. Catechism 487
God has created human beings as male and female, equal in personal dignity, and has called them to a vocation of love and of communion. Everyone should accept his or her identity as male or female, recognizing its importance for the whole of the person, its specificity and complementarity.
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A Map of Gender-Diverse Cultures:

pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html
On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. Terms such as transgender and gay are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).
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Yet hundreds of distinct societies around the globe have their own long-established traditions for third, fourth, fifth, or more genders. Fred Martinez, for example, was not a boy who wanted to be a girl, but both a boy and a girl — an identity his Navajo culture recognized and revered as nádleehí. Most Western societies have no direct correlation for this Native “two-spirit” tradition, nor for the many other communities without strict either/or conceptions of sex, sexuality, and gender. Worldwide, the sheer variety of gender expression is almost limitless. Take a tour and learn how other cultures see gender diversity.
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I don’t see SRS as being a moral option for any potent, fertile XX or XY transgender person (i.e., a non-intersexed transgender person.) It just doesn’t jive with natural law or the theology of the body, as far as I see it. But clearly transgender folks suffer greatly, and we ought to work towards a solution that works. Smugly shooting down SRS or HRT without offering so much as a compassionate word isn’t the Christian way, either.

Some posters have been very hard on either the parents or the child in the case at hand, because of a few limited news reports and a brief letter. We don’t know them, we don’t know their whole story, etc. So please refrain from making generalizations about people, especially the departed teen or his mourning parents.

*To Rin, (apologies if I’m mistaken, but I think it was Rin who requested gender neutral pronouns): please don’t mistake my choice of pronouns as a slight. I respect trans folk and more importantly, I love trans people. But unless I experience an epiphany and actually believe that Joshua was not male objectively, I feel it is dishonest and therefore morally wrong to use words that deceive, whether actively (she) or by ommission (they). I don’t discount how Joshua felt, and believe me, my heart breaks over his story.
 
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