Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[savedbygrace71]

I’m sorry that I was so mentally screwed up in Iraq that I placed my sidearm against my head and save for the grace of God would have pulled the trigger. I’m sorry that mental state at the time was so far gone that all I was concerned about was me and the pain I was going through. I’m sorry that my nightly nightmares that woke me up either crying or having pissed myself or both, my inability to stay focused on anything other than the crippling sense of doom and worthlessness I had, and the ever present sense of rage that I did my best to control led me to such a state. But most of all, I’m sorry that my own personal Hell somehow caused you some sort of harm. I hope you can forgive me, because your forgiveness is somehow more important than the reborn shame and guilt I still feel over my attempted suicide. Thank God we have individuals so caring as yourself that we who have attempted suicide or suffer depression can have constant reminders of the Hell that we endure within our own minds.

:hug1:

 

[Lion_IRC]

gracepoole,
I was asking you a question, trying to get back on the topic of the Op instead of your belief that I need praying for.

A victim???
Of what? Who is responsible for this persons death? What social pathology do you think is the root cause of these peoples’ problems? Who do you blame?

…oh, and please don’t bother yourself to pray for me in the hope of winning an internet argument.
If you have spare time to do that I would rather instead that you pray for something REALLY important - like the sick and the dying and the poor and the grieving and the homeless.

Could you please answer these questions (or let me know if you have me on ignore.)

…This is one of the ugliest posts I’ve ever read on CAF.

…yeah, yeah. I get it. Shoot the messenger.
But can we please stick to the substance of the matter rather than your personal dislike of what is being said by people with whom you disagree.

…What’s most sad here is that you’re speaking ill of many, many of your fellow posters who have suffered and continue to suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts.

See… now you’re attacking me personally with an accusation that I am “speaking ill” of fellow posters.

…I am saddened that you know so little about depression and suicide.

You have NO IDEA how much I know about depression and suicide!!!
Again, my personal life is NOT the topic of this thread.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole, I was asking you a question, trying to get back on the topic of the Op instead of your belief that I need praying for. Could you please answer these questions (or let me know if you have me on ignore.)

We commonly call those who die by suicide “victims.” It’s not meant to be a personal affront to you. If nothing else, this child was a victim of depression. I see no value in trying to find someone to blame here. I’m not her psychiatrist, her priest, or her parent – therefore I can’t begin to speculate on her specific state of mind. Why are you so interested in vilifying her rather than simply pitying her and her parents?

…yeah, yeah. I get it. Shoot the messenger.
But can we please stick to the substance of the matter rather than your personal dislike of what is being said by people with whom you disagree.

See… now you’re attacking me personally with an accusation that I am “speaking ill” of fellow posters.

You have NO IDEA how much I know about depression and suicide!!!
Again, my personal life is NOT the topic of this thread.

You’re very much mistaken. While I do find it repugnant that any poster would make ugly and disparaging remarks about anyone suffering from depression or any suicide victim, these kinds of remarks are also inappropriate because they’re not even remotely aligned with Catholic teachings. If you do in fact know anything about depression and suicide, this isn’t at all evident in your comments here. I’ve asked others here why they feel such anger toward this adolescent (and their posts which initially seemed to display anger are dwarfed by the display of rage provided in yours) and their responses have made it clear that they’re not angry with her but rather feel that her parents shouldn’t be vilified. Fair enough. That’s a position I can easily respect. But disparaging anyone who’s suffered from severe depression? Someone who is now dead? In God’s name, whom would this benefit?

 

[Lion_IRC]

“…Be not over much wicked, neither be you foolish: why should you die before your time?”
Ecclesiastes 7:17

 

[Lion_IRC]

“…I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”
John 10:10

 

[Lion_IRC]

“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
Deuteronomy 30:19

 

[gracepoole]

“…Be not over much wicked, neither be you foolish: why should you die before your time?”
Ecclesiastes 7:17

“…I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”
John 10:10

Please read the following from the CCC. It seems you’re wanting to emphasis the first portions while ignoring the last:

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

**Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.**

 

[Lion_IRC]

“…No man has power to retain the spirit, or power over the day of death…”
Ecclesiastes 8:8

 

[gracepoole]

You keep posting scriptural passages, as though anyone here is attempting to justify the choice to kill oneself. Yet no one here, as far as I can see, has even hinted at this sort of thing.

 

[Lion_IRC]

We commonly call those who die by suicide “victims.”

We commonly call the surviving mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, neighbors of the deceased - “victims”.
We commonly call copy-cat suicide attempts - “victims”
We commonly call those who have to cope with the aftermath of suicide - the police and paramedics and related sufferers of PTSD - “victims”

I see you are reluctant to contemplate the much wider evils and ripple effects caused by individual suicide and self-harm.

…It’s not meant to be a personal affront to you.

Apology accepted

… If nothing else, this child was a victim of depression. I see no value in trying to find someone to blame here.

Who DO YOU BLAME?

… I’m not her psychiatrist, her priest, or her parent – therefore I can’t begin to speculate on her specific state of mind.

Well, pardon me if I do try to speculate and get to the root cause of this type of evil in society.

… Why are you so interested in vilifying her rather than simply pitying her and her parents?

Strawman argument. No comment.

…You’re very much mistaken. While I do find it repugnant that any poster would make ugly and disparaging remarks about anyone suffering from depression or any suicide victim…

I find nothing repugnant and have no moral qualms about my anger arising from the (avoidable and unnecessary) pain and suffering caused to others by those who disregard the sanctity of life - including their own. If this persons suicide leads to other suicides then they are part of the problem.

… these kinds of remarks are also inappropriate because they’re not even remotely aligned with Catholic teachings.

Yes they are. **CCC 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. **
The Church teaches that we are wonderfully made. That God made male and female not shemales.That your external body parts cannot be mistakenly assigned by God to someone whose “soul” is somehow a different gender. God does not accidentally breathe female souls into male bodies. (Neither can the pedophile claim they are “trapped” in the wrong body or born into the wrong culture or that if they were born an animal instead, then sexual propriety wouldnt matter.)

… If you do in fact know anything about depression and suicide, this isn’t at all evident in your comments here.

Argument from silence. (fallacy)
How can you read stuff into a list of things I havent said?
I repeat - this thread is not about me and what you think of me and/or my private life.

… I’ve asked others here why they feel such anger toward this adolescent (and their posts which initially seemed to display anger are dwarfed by the display of rage provided in yours) and their responses have made it clear that they’re not angry with her but rather feel that her parents shouldn’t be vilified.

I dont know who you are speaking about. Private messages?
But your emotive language falsely accusing me of “rage” is yet another example of personalising the discussion towards me rather than the topic.

… But disparaging anyone who’s suffered from severe depression?

Hang on…you were just saying; ↓↓↓↓↓↓

… I’m not her psychiatrist, her priest, or her parent – therefore I can’t begin to speculate on her specific state of mind.

…Someone who is now dead?

Yes. So what? Let the dead bury their dead.
I’m concerned about the living.
If young people are bombarded with unnatural, gender-bender, LGBTQ lobby, godless, “FIX SOCIETY” messages about moral relativism and the supposed “right”
to do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be - then we need to rail against those who use suicide as a weapon.

… In God’s name, whom would this benefit?

Treating the root cause before it’s too late, rather than belated, hand-wringing and myopic, politically correct LGBTQ public affirmations, may have benefitted an angry teen who mistakenly thought that the premeditated taking of a human life (my body-my-choice) was going to benefit anybody on earth.

 

[Path_Finder]

In a low-key way, I do think the Bible verses were a good addition to the discussion here. One can see if they apply or not in their own opinion. Also, as they relate to the bigger picture of the discussion.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I’m going to take a break from posting in this topic.
:crutches:

 

[Darryl1958]

I especially appreciated CC2282.
This is very pertinent to the subject of this thread.
There is no such thing as an heroic suicide.

 

[gracepoole]

We commonly call the surviving mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, neighbors of the deceased - “victims”.
We commonly call copy-cat suicide attempts - “victims”
We commonly call those who have to cope with the aftermath of suicide - the police and paramedics and related sufferers of PTSD - “victims”

You’ve ably noted that the word victim can be applied to multiple individuals and groups and in multiple contexts.

I see you are reluctant to contemplate the much wider evils and ripple effects caused by individual suicide and self-harm.

Of course suicide impacts more than the person who dies. Has anyone here claimed the opposite? Have I?

Who DO YOU BLAME?

I believe I made it quite clear that I don’t blame anyone and have zero interest in doing so.

Well, pardon me if I do try to speculate and get to the root cause of this type of evil in society.

Clearly you disagree with the concepts of transgenderism, gender identity disorder, and suicide. And you labor under the misconception that ridiculing and YELLING about them means you’re engaged in a quest to more fully understand them and their effects.

I find nothing repugnant and have no moral qualms about my anger arising from the (avoidable and unnecessary) pain and suffering caused to others by those who disregard the sanctity of life - including their own. If this persons suicide leads to other suicides then they are part of the problem.

What in the teachings of the Church and Christ tell you that anger is an appropriate and charitable response in this circumstance?

Yes they are. **CCC 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. **

Ah, I was right, then. You’re emphasizing one portion of the Church’s teachings on suicide and ignoring the rest.

I dont know who you are speaking about. Private messages?

Feel free to scroll through the rest of the thread.

Yes. So what? Let the dead bury their dead. I’m concerned about the living. If young people are bombarded with unnatural, gender-bender, LGBTQ lobby, godless, “FIX SOCIETY” messages about moral relativism and the supposed “right”
to do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be - then we need to rail against those who use suicide as a weapon. Treating the root cause before it’s too late, rather than belated, hand-wringing and myopic, politically correct LGBTQ public affirmations, may have benefitted an angry teen who mistakenly thought that the premeditated taking of a human life (my body-my-choice) was going to benefit anybody on earth.

If young people are struggling with gender identity disorder and read this thread, they will not be aided by outright disparaging of their experiences. Nor will they be moved to consider Catholic teachings about this issue by ridicule of a person who committed suicide. How, specifically, are you dealing with the “root cause” of any of this? I understand your choice to step away from the thread. I’d like to do the same. But I can’t. I can’t permit transgender Catholics here to believe that the only approach to a news story like this one is anger. It’s not.

 

[cena]

We commonly call the surviving mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, neighbors of the deceased - “victims”.
We commonly call copy-cat suicide attempts - “victims”
We commonly call those who have to cope with the aftermath of suicide - the police and paramedics and related sufferers of PTSD - “victims”

I see you are reluctant to contemplate the much wider evils and ripple effects caused by individual suicide and self-harm.

Apology accepted

Who DO YOU BLAME?

Well, pardon me if I do try to speculate and get to the root cause of this type of evil in society.

Strawman argument. No comment.

I find nothing repugnant and have no moral qualms about my anger arising from the (avoidable and unnecessary) pain and suffering caused to others by those who disregard the sanctity of life - including their own. If this persons suicide leads to other suicides then they are part of the problem.

Yes they are. **CCC 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. **
The Church teaches that we are wonderfully made. That God made male and female not shemales.That your external body parts cannot be mistakenly assigned by God to someone whose “soul” is somehow a different gender. God does not accidentally breathe female souls into male bodies. (Neither can the pedophile claim they are “trapped” in the wrong body or born into the wrong culture or that if they were born an animal instead, then sexual propriety wouldnt matter.)

Argument from silence. (fallacy)
How can you read stuff into a list of things I havent said?
I repeat - this thread is not about me and what you think of me and/or my private life.

I dont know who you are speaking about. Private messages?
But your emotive language falsely accusing me of “rage” is yet another example of personalising the discussion towards me rather than the topic.

Hang on…you were just saying; ↓↓↓↓↓↓

Yes. So what? Let the dead bury their dead.
I’m concerned about the living.
If young people are bombarded with unnatural, gender-bender, LGBTQ lobby, godless, “FIX SOCIETY” messages about moral relativism and the supposed “right”
to do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be - then we need to rail against those who use suicide as a weapon.

Treating the root cause before it’s too late, rather than belated, hand-wringing and myopic, politically correct LGBTQ public affirmations, may have benefitted an angry teen who mistakenly thought that the premeditated taking of a human life (my body-my-choice) was going to benefit anybody on earth.

I get what you’re saying, but you can’t know for sure what his intentions were. I mean unless he told someone or he wrote it down somewhere like in a journal there is no way of knowing what his true intentions were. I think we should just pray for him.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Anorexics “know for sure” that they are horrifically overweight. But whereas Anorexia is classified as a severe mental disorder that should NEVER be indulged, transgenderism is for whatever reason indulged as though it’s put on the same level as a cleft lip or something.

My guess is because our sexualized culture wants absolute unchecked freedom of everything having to do with your crawdads and because this is about thinking you have the wrong set, instead of working to make you accept that your body is the righ one, you get to indulged a mental illness because sexuality trumps all else. “Don’t infringe on my sexuality, you prudish Puritans!” the advocates cry out, unaware that the Puritans hated the physical body so much that they’d probably be in favor of mutilating it to fit your internal belief of how it’s supposed to be. Or maybe not, I could care less about a long dead Christian sect.

Anorexia is an addiction, gender dysphoria is not.

Trying to cure gender dysphoria by talk therapy has been show to be an exercise in futility, suppression can be achieved, but the cost is tremendous and it comes back even worse.

…in the meantime, I demand an APOLOGY from all those folks who commit or threaten to commit suicide causing the rest of the community stress and trauma because of THEIR gutless and psychotic attention-deficit disorder - ME, ME, ME, it’s all about me.

"…I don’t care if it hurts my parents to ‘identify’ me in the morgue. I don’t care if it causes PTSD for paramedics who discover my body. I don’t care if my brothers and sisters grieve for decades about my death. I don’t care that other humans - with problems 100 x worse than my 1st World problem LGBTQ sexual idiosyncrasies - have real LIFE & DEATH struggles.

I want an apology from the subject of the Op.

You self-centred, vain, sex-obsessed, hedonist!!!

What tremendous ignorance about suicide.

Millions starving to death!!!
Millions without clean water!!!

And zhe is upset because zhe doesn’t have a vagina. sniff
Boo hoo! So sad.

Zhe? She never asked to be called that. She also didn’t commit suicide over not having a vagina, such an assumption shows ignorance and not actually reading the suicide note.

It truly boggles the mind that people insist on referring to Joshua as :her or she" as if these feminine pronouns would actually change something immutable.

I guarantee you that his birth certificate as well as his death have the name" Joshua" and sex as “male”. People try to delude themselves with all kinds of supposed “scientific facts”.The fact is that there is no proof of gender identity disorder.It is a psychological construct created sometime in the 1970s to try to explain people who despise their own genitalia.It also gave rise to some bizarre surgical techniques that surgeons could experiment with.

This poor young man hated himself to the point of despair and suicide and I doubt that trying to turn his penis into a vagina would remedy that.

Still praying for his soul and for his grieving parents. May Joshua rest in peace.

While the name is modern the condition is ancient

If you look up “sex reassignment surgery” you may find nice little pics of brand new vaginas created out of penises.These are displayed like some sort of artwork and that they are evidence of the surgeons skill and prowess. Many of these surgeons even pride themselves on creating clitorises so these new “women” can begin to explore their sexuality, and have real womanly orgasms. Seriously ,how far to we have to degrade as a society to consider the gender God gave us as something expendable and unnecessary.

Actually the womanly orgasms are the result of estrogen, no SRS necessary to feel the full body orgasms that women experience.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

That’s one of the ugly truths of Psychiatry. It’s shocking how much of it is built on sand. However, that’s another thread of discussion

There are many stories or people who “transitioned” who ended up fine, while a multitude of others it didn’t help at all, and even made worse. There are another multitude There is no objective medical test to differentiate the two.

That some would condemn the parents and therapists for refusing such a drastic measure to treat something a multitude simply grow out of is absurd given the limited information we have.

The vast majority benefit substantially, a small minority do not and an even small minority have it made worse pretty much always due to their religion strongly condemning it.

A big story I came to see is that India passed legislation recognizing “Transgendered” Persons as a 3rd gender.

independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/landmark-indian-transgender-law-change-as-court-rules-third-gender-must-be-recognised-9263813.html

Well, Hijra and transgender persons are close, but not quite the same.

Thanks, Ridge, for the additional information. Iran’s forcing gay males to change their gender through sex reassignment surgery sounds to me particularly cruel.

There is some reference to transgenderism in either the Hebrew Bible or Talmud. I’ll have to check on that.

Iran is not forcing them to go through SRS however given that gay sex is punished harshly and transitioning then engaging in sex with one’s birth sex is not, some bottom gays transition so they can have relations with men without being punished. A very sad state of affairs

You might try starting with the keyword “Jezebel,” in case you need somewhere to begin.

Hinduism traditions are the root of it. However, despite the “look and feel” of New Age, reincarnation, past life elements this modern “rooted in Vedic Scriptural tradition” is not traditional and is entirely bogus. Gender transmutation was not the form that the goddess of this inscript informed. Indeed, the reference was more likely to indicate that such morphologies were intrinsic evils of the day - or, in the light of the Indic world view, indicators of the end times of an age. And, also, this could indicate a specificity in the significance of “tantrum” in respect to this post-modern, New Age, jabberwocky.

Thus, desire for the end of the current age of turmoil would be the root of such admiration.

To this, I say, Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus.

That is a very strange style of writing, where are you from?

I especially appreciated CC2282.
This is very pertinent to the subject of this thread.
There is no such thing as an heroic suicide.

She was clearly an hero

 

[estesbob]

I especially appreciated CC2282.
This is very pertinent to the subject of this thread.
There is no such thing as an heroic suicide.

That is a good point. This suicide serve no purpose whatsoever in spite of what the young man posted trying to ascribe nobility to his act .

 

[St_Francis]

The vast majority benefit substantially, a small minority do not and an even small minority have it made worse pretty much always due to their religion strongly condemning it.

Well, Hijra and transgender persons are close, but not quite the same.

Iran is not forcing them to go through SRS however given that gay sex is punished harshly and transitioning then engaging in sex with one’s birth sex is not, some bottom gays transition so they can have relations with men without being punished. A very sad state of affairs

That is a very strange style of writing, where are you from?

She was clearly an hero

Either the teen *was *so mentally ill as to be unable to make good decisions, in which case this act of suicide was simply an awful tragedy; or the teen was *not *so mentally ill as to be incapable of making decisions, in which case he did a horrendously cruel and vindictive thing, not at all heroic.

The *best *we can think is that he was seriously mentally ill and unable to think clearly, and his family was dealing with a seriously mentally ill child and this whole thing is a tragedy. And the best thing to do is to pray for this troubled teen and for his family.

In no way is it possible to think of this act of suicide as heroic.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I’m going to take a break from posting in this topic.
:crutches:

Upset that more of us depressed/at one point suicidal individuals didn’t apologize to you for being so selfish and having a mental illness?