Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[PLeeD]

People with transgender tendencies widely report that knowing they were different is one of their earliest memories.

It’s not a new phenomenon caused by increased media exposure to the subject. Senior citizens report the same experience, and the topic was not discussed at all when they were young. I expect it’s been that way as long as there have been human beings.

 

[Midwest88]

I also believe that we are almost all bisexual by nature and society imposes gender differences to discourage same sex intimacy in order to accelerate demographic growth or to comply with religious demands.

This idea that we have so much behavior determined at birth I do not think is supported in reality.

So what you’re saying I have an inner bi in me? Is this another play of the “sexuality continuum” card?

 

[RGCheek]

So what you’re saying I have an inner bi in me? Is this another play of the “sexuality continuum” card?

We all are born with, except for the most asexual among us, with the desire for physical tactile contact that causes an experience of pleasure, regardless of sex. Conditioning as we grow up can change that to exclusively one or the other gender.

If a heterosexual man was attracted to a woman who later turned out to be cross dressing, would he be gay? It has happened before and the male traumatized with guilt for enjoying the encounter. There are men who have been raped in prison so many times that they came to prefer it to normal sex. Did the rape change their sexuality? Some think it does.

If a gay man enjoyed sex with a ‘man’ who turned out to actually be a woman, would he be heterosexual? Bisexual? Why do so many gay men prefer effeminate men to butch females? Master and Johnson showed that most people who identified as homosexual had had sex with the opposite gender at some point prior in their lives. So they had to use an arbitrary cut off amount of time like 5 years, to not statistically eradicate the homosexual element of their data sample.

Some say it is all about the initial response on sight, but then I know people who insist that there are subtle clues as to what gender a person was born with no matter what surgery may do.

Prior to the adoption of Christianity, men in the West generally had sex with anything that felt good. ‘Women are for breeding, but boys are for pleasure’ or some such phrase was common in the ancient world. Most men were bisexual then, but the Truth of Jesus Christ cleansed most of it from society.

That does not mean that we were born heterosexual, but only that we have been conditioned well and do not recall ever feeling differently about it.

 

[RGCheek]

Excellent argument. I like the way you think.

Thanks, but my wife knows better.

 

[RGCheek]

I accept that there are many experiencing this phenomenon and many others studying it. I’m not a fan of forming conclusions based solely on my own assumptions.

Why do you accept that this is an occurring phenomenon simply because people say it is true? Do you also accept Near Death Experiences, UFO’s and the existence of Big Foot?

Of course not. Thankfully, this analogy is entirely unrelated so there’s no need to believe or disbelieve me.

It is entirely related to the reliability of a 4 year old’s perceptions and memory of events.

I would recommend, though, that you consider that while memory does shift as we age, we’re speaking about a 17-year-old. A 40-year-old remembering how she felt at the age of 4 is quite different than a 17-year-old doing the same. (There are actual studies on this sort of thing, which I generally find more convincing than gut reactions to controversial issues.)

There is also a problem with how a 4 year old uses a limited vocabulary to form the memory of a very complex subject so subtle you cant even describe what it is as an adult.

Given what you’ve claimed here, what if those identifying as transgender simply don’t follow the socially proscribed approach to gender? If gendered behavior isn’t determined at birth, what confusion remains about why some might identify as transgender?

IF his notion of gender is in fact a social construct, perhaps counseling is preferable to irreversible mutilation?

As a society we are justly outraged at the sexual mutilation of little girls in Africa, but if that little girl wants her genitalia ‘trimmed’ we are supposed to say that is OK without parental permission? We realize that the little girl is not mature enough to make such a decision against the parents wishes or to even get a tattoo in most states.

And yet a parent is supposed to just step out of the way so their little boy can have his genitalia removed permanently?

The contrast is telling.

 

[Kurisu35712]

It is not infeasible, but it is unlikely, implausible and unreliable.

When we remember things we tend to do two things; remember images and how we felt or thought expressed in words. We also form memories by spatial location and procedure ( at least according to almighty Wikipedia). But the latter two seem irrelevant to the memory of a feeling. How else is memory of feeling stored except in verbal description with perhaps some imagery that seemed particularly important then?

And where does the memory of a feeling come in when you barely have any knowledge of the language such as most four year olds have?

It seems more plausible to me that these words and notions were put into the kids head by ideologues for whom mere factoids like genetic determination of gender is merely a tricky matter.

Sure we do, and we have plenty of reason to doubt the accuracy of the memory as memory morphs with each time we recall it, emphasizing the details we think most important at any one time and ignoring and eventually forgetting those things unimportant to us at the time of recall.

I see absolutely no good reason to simply accept on its face a claim to remember feeling like a girl. And what does that really mean anyway? He remembers wanting to put on Mommy’s shoes or what? A bunch of gender stereotypes are supposed to fill in here, but are these things not taught by the culture?

I don’t buy it.

For the record, I agree with most of your posts after this one, I just wanted to address this point since it came up.

I wasn’t a typical child growing up. I liked playing dress up, I would spend more time around girls, I used to like putting on my mom’s high heels, and sports were completely uninteresting to me. But despite all of that more feminine behavior, which I’m sure worried people, I never actually thought I was a girl or that I wanted to be one. I liked playing dress up because I was imaginative and liked textures. I liked putting on my mom’s shoes because they looked funny and made noise and made me taller. At those ages, girls were really the only people who still wanted to play pretend instead of football. The behavior was probably indistinguishable from that which most people would probably expect to result in transgenderism. But from my perspective, my motivations were completely different and had nothing to do with gender and all to do with my imagination.

I’ve always remembered specifically not feeling like I was a girl, despite always liking more traditionally girly things. While I can’t vouch for the reliability of someone else’s memories, I don’t think it’s infeasible that those kinds of thoughts can at least develop at so early an age.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

We all are born with, except for the most asexual among us, with the desire for physical tactile contact that causes an experience of pleasure, regardless of sex. Conditioning as we grow up can change that to exclusively one or the other gender.

I’m not so sure that most people are as close to the center as you suggest.

If a heterosexual man was attracted to a woman who later turned out to be cross dressing, would he be gay? It has happened before and the male traumatized with guilt for enjoying the encounter. There are men who have been raped in prison so many times that they came to prefer it to normal sex. Did the rape change their sexuality? Some think it does.

If he was attracted to femininity in what he thought was a woman it doesn’t make him gay. If you are referring to transwomen it still doesn’t make him gay.

Do you have proof of “There are men who have been raped in prison so many times that they came to prefer it to normal sex”?

If a gay man enjoyed sex with a ‘man’ who turned out to actually be a woman, would he be heterosexual? Bisexual? Why do so many gay men prefer effeminate men to butch females? Master and Johnson showed that most people who identified as homosexual had had sex with the opposite gender at some point prior in their lives. So they had to use an arbitrary cut off amount of time like 5 years, to not statistically eradicate the homosexual element of their data sample.

Most gay men don’t like queens, that is a stereotype portrayed by the media.

I’ve met several gay people who tried sex with the opposite sex to see if maybe they could enjoy it, instead it reaffirmed that they were not attracted to the opposite sex.

Some say it is all about the initial response on sight, but then I know people who insist that there are subtle clues as to what gender a person was born with no matter what surgery may do.

Prior to the adoption of Christianity, men in the West generally had sex with anything that felt good. ‘Women are for breeding, but boys are for pleasure’ or some such phrase was common in the ancient world. Most men were bisexual then, but the Truth of Jesus Christ cleansed most of it from society.

That does not mean that we were born heterosexual, but only that we have been conditioned well and do not recall ever feeling differently about it.

Christ didn’t remove it, he purified it.

Why do you accept that this is an occurring phenomenon simply because people say it is true? Do you also accept Near Death Experiences, UFO’s and the existence of Big Foot?

It is entirely related to the reliability of a 4 year old’s perceptions and memory of events.

There is also a problem with how a 4 year old uses a limited vocabulary to form the memory of a very complex subject so subtle you cant even describe what it is as an adult.

IF his notion of gender is in fact a social construct, perhaps counseling is preferable to irreversible mutilation?

As a society we are justly outraged at the sexual mutilation of little girls in Africa, but if that little girl wants her genitalia ‘trimmed’ we are supposed to say that is OK without parental permission? We realize that the little girl is not mature enough to make such a decision against the parents wishes or to even get a tattoo in most states.

And yet a parent is supposed to just step out of the way so their little boy can have his genitalia removed permanently?

The contrast is telling.

No one in this thread, not even the transwoman, has advocate for children getting SRS,

 

[Kurisu35712]

IF his notion of gender is in fact a social construct, perhaps counseling is preferable to irreversible mutilation?

As a society we are justly outraged at the sexual mutilation of little girls in Africa, but if that little girl wants her genitalia ‘trimmed’ we are supposed to say that is OK without parental permission? We realize that the little girl is not mature enough to make such a decision against the parents wishes or to even get a tattoo in most states.

And yet a parent is supposed to just step out of the way so their little boy can have his genitalia removed permanently?

The contrast is telling.

A 17 year old in the US would not have been approved for gender reassignment surgery. There was a post I was typing before that I ended up not posting about the requirements for a person to be approved for gender reassignment surgery, but point was the requirements are somewhat rigorous. It’s not a walk in procedure, even if the person had parental consent. It requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for one.

The Wikipedia page on the topic has some very thorough information. No minor would have been approved for surgery in any case, as one requirement is the patient being the age of majority as the page says. While hormone therapy would have been a viable option, gender reassignment surgery is in no way a procedure taken lightly, either by patients or medical professionals.

If I’m not mistaken, counseling, and with a diagnosis, hormone therapy, are the first, and in most cases only, steps taken for a person diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Actual surgery is much less common and only in cases where it is expected to be notably more beneficial than hormone therapy alone.

 

[gracepoole]

Why do you accept that this is an occurring phenomenon simply because people say it is true? Do you also accept Near Death Experiences, UFO’s and the existence of Big Foot?

I’m assuming, then, that you don’t view psychology as a legitimate method of inquiry? At the very least, the involvement of this branch of science marks transgenderism as significantly different than the other phenomena you mention. But of course, there have been studies that also point to biological causes. I’m unaware of reputable scientific sources that support the existence of Bigfoot.

It is entirely related to the reliability of a 4 year old’s perceptions and memory of events.

A four-year-old’s memory about objective events outside herself for the purpose of testifying in a court of law is very different than a four-year-old’s understanding of herself. A seventeen-year-old’s memory about objective events outside herself that took place when she was four for the purpose of testifying in a court of law is very different than a seventeen-year-old’s memory of how she understood herself at the age of four.

There is also a problem with how a 4 year old uses a limited vocabulary to form the memory of a very complex subject so subtle you cant even describe what it is as an adult.

Respectfully, I think we have quite different understandings of both the cognitive abilities of young children and linguistics as it relates to cognition. It’s unclear why you think it’s not possible to describe gender identity disorder as an adult.

IF his notion of gender is in fact a social construct, perhaps counseling is preferable to irreversible mutilation?

As a society we are justly outraged at the sexual mutilation of little girls in Africa, but if that little girl wants her genitalia ‘trimmed’ we are supposed to say that is OK without parental permission? We realize that the little girl is not mature enough to make such a decision against the parents wishes or to even get a tattoo in most states.

And yet a parent is supposed to just step out of the way so their little boy can have his genitalia removed permanently?

The contrast is telling.

As others have ably noted, no medical professional will agree to a minor receiving sex reassignment surgery. Counseling *is *the first and most lasting step for those struggling with GID.

 

[Cherry5]

I’m assuming, then, that you don’t view psychology as a legitimate method of inquiry? At the very least, the involvement of this branch of science marks transgenderism as significantly different than the other phenomena you mention. But of course, there have been studies that also point to biological causes. I’m unaware of reputable scientific sources that support the existence of Bigfoot.
This was copied from the standards of care, world professional association for transgender.
A four-year-old’s memory about objective events outside herself for the purpose of testifying in a court of law is very different than a four-year-old’s understanding of herself. A seventeen-year-old’s memory about objective events outside herself that took place when she was four for the purpose of testifying in a court of law is very different than a seventeen-year-old’s memory of how she understood herself at the age of four.

Respectfully, I think we have quite different understandings of both the cognitive abilities of young children and linguistics as it relates to cognition. It’s unclear why you think it’s not possible to describe gender identity disorder as an adult.

As others have ably noted, no medical professional will agree to a minor receiving sex reassignment surgery. Counseling *is *the first and most lasting step for those struggling with GID.

Gender Nonconformity Is Not the Same as Gender Dysphoria*Gender nonconformity refers to the extent to which a person’s gender identity, role, or expression differs from the cultural norms prescribed for people of a particular sex (Institute of Medicine, 2011). Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b). Only some gender-nonconforming people experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. Treatment is available to assist people with such distress to explore their gender identity and find a gender role that is comfortable for them (Bockting & Goldberg, 2006). Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications. Medical treatment options include, for example, feminization or masculinization of the body through hormone therapy and/or surgery, which are effective in alleviating gender dysphoria and are medically necessary for many people. Gender identities and expressions are diverse, and hormones and surgery are just two of many options available to assist people with achieving comfort with self and identity.*Gender dysphoria can in large part be alleviated through treatment (Murad et al., 2010). Hence, while transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people may experience gender dysphoria at some points in their lives, many individuals who receive treatment will find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them, even if these differ from those associated with their sex assigned at birth, or from prevailing gender norms and expectations.
The recommended standard for treatment for minors is counciling and if required, puberty blockers to delay puberty.
This greatly helps those that indeed need to transition in adapting since the physical effects of puberty do not negatively impact the individual.

Please Google gender expression for more details that may explain earlier posts experiences. Versus gender identity.

 

[gracepoole]

Gender Nonconformity Is Not the Same as Gender Dysphoria*Gender nonconformity refers to the extent to which a person’s gender identity, role, or expression differs from the cultural norms prescribed for people of a particular sex (Institute of Medicine, 2011). Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b). Only some gender-nonconforming people experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. Treatment is available to assist people with such distress to explore their gender identity and find a gender role that is comfortable for them (Bockting & Goldberg, 2006). Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications. Medical treatment options include, for example, feminization or masculinization of the body through hormone therapy and/or surgery, which are effective in alleviating gender dysphoria and are medically necessary for many people. Gender identities and expressions are diverse, and hormones and surgery are just two of many options available to assist people with achieving comfort with self and identity.*Gender dysphoria can in large part be alleviated through treatment (Murad et al., 2010). Hence, while transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people may experience gender dysphoria at some points in their lives, many individuals who receive treatment will find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them, even if these differ from those associated with their sex assigned at birth, or from prevailing gender norms and expectations.
The recommended standard for treatment for minors is counciling and if required, puberty blockers to delay puberty.
This greatly helps those that indeed need to transition in adapting since the physical effects of puberty do not negatively impact the individual.

Please Google gender expression for more details that may explain earlier posts experiences. Versus gender identity.

Thank you, Cherry! I appreciate the education.

 

[Cherry5]

Thank you, Cherry! I appreciate the education.

Sorry I did the last post from my phone. I did not mention that this was taken from the “world professionals Association for transgender health”
wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1347&pk_association_webpage=4233

There is a lot of information here that you may find informative. Specially if you can download the document link in the section " Establishing Standards of Care for Gender Identity Disorders".
Hope that helps.

 

[Lion_IRC]

…Gender Nonconformity Is Not the Same as Gender Dysphoria*

…Gender identities and expressions are diverse, and hormones and surgery are just two of many options available to assist people with achieving comfort with self and identity.*

I noticed you included two asterisks in your (very well-written and detailed) post above.

Could you please tell me what they relate to?

 

[Lion_IRC]

Yes, I was wondering what the two asterisks in your post were for.

That PDF link is 8MB but worth the read if you want to see how the mental health care industry is turning gender identity issues into a huge field of professional employment.

 

[cjforJesus]

Yes, I was wondering what the two asterisks in your post were for.

That PDF link is 8MB but worth the read if you want to see how the mental health care industry is turning gender identity issues into a huge field of professional employment.

Perhaps we are looking at a medical and legal fiction. .

 

[ucfengr]

The kid wasn’t tortured because his parents refused to consent to surgery…he was tortured because his parents would not listen to him or take his feeling seriously and sent him to therapists who only told him his feelings were “wrong”–without giving him/her any understanding.
Then, they isolated him from his friends and other support network.

This is what can lead to alienation and depression.

.

It seems you’re assuming the worst of the young man’s parents, which I don’t think is a valid assumption. Sending the young man to therapists seems to indicate that they at least took his feelings seriously, even if they may not have responded as you think they should have. That said, I’m not seeing a meaningful distinction between my post and yours. Anything having to do with sex is sacrosanct in Western culture. Nobody would expect the parents to accommodate a child’s desire to live as an amputee, but everybody seems to expect a parent to accommodate a son’s desire to be a daughter.

 

[estesbob]

OH! This is interesting to know! Thank you for this information, I’m so glad to hear this!

.

It’s not true. The Church clearly teaches your gender is immutable and is determined at conception.It does allow surgery for the extremely small number of people born with genitalia of both genders.

 

[EIF5A]

Regardless of how gender is defined and the moral culpability of acting against the defined gender, the very fact that people choose suicide is something to lament over. There needs to be a charitable way to help people deal with this issue.

I’ve never been depressed to the point of actually contemplating suicide, but I imagine the lack of desire for understanding and sympathy would only make the temptation of suicide worse.

 

[SMGS127]

It’s not true. The Church clearly teaches your gender is immutable and is determined at conception.It does allow surgery for the extremely small number of people born with genitalia of both genders.

In its sub-secretum letter to Bishops about transsexuality specifically that you linked, the Vatican affirmed that the surgery can be morally licit in cases where it was/is the only way to cure the patient’s inner turmoil. There is no other possible way to interpret this. They didn’t just randomly change topics for one line of their letter.

The Church does also affirm that one cannot change their gender, but She does not mandate a specific medical basis from which gender must be determined. She does not state that gender is infallibly linked to one’s genitalia.

 

[estesbob]

In its sub-secretum letter to Bishops about transsexuality specifically that you linked, the Vatican affirmed that the surgery can be morally licit in cases where it was/is the only way to cure the patient’s inner turmoil. There is no other possible way to interpret this. They didn’t just randomly change topics for one line of their letter.

The Church does also affirm that one cannot change their gender, but She does not mandate a specific medical basis from which gender must be determined. She does not state that gender is infallibly linked to one’s genitalia.

Of curse she does-we have posted cites from the Catechism and Church documents earlier in this thread.