transgenderism

[Lea101]

Honestly a lot of people who support this usually don’t even think it’s ‘healthy’ or normal.

It’s kind of logical to think that it is not normal for a boy to believe that he is a girl.

But they accept this and are not against it because it does not affect them, it makes trans people feel safe and happy, and it makes them look like good people.

Personally when a trans asks me to use a different name when talking to him/her, I’ll use whatever they want me to. They know I’m Catholic and I don’t have to make them feel worthless/uncomfortable by telling them my beliefs and refusing to change a word in my vocabulary, especially if it’s just between me and the person

They know that I don’t personally believe in it, but i don’t see why i should say anything without being asked. I have this belief that if I don’t go up to a Muslim and scold them for not accepting the trinity, likewise I don’t go up to a trans and scold them for not accepting this teaching. They are obviously not Catholics, so it’s weird to bring that up.

Secular society is confused about gender. They say stuff like how gender roles are so strict, which I can agree, and they keep ranting about how a man is still a man if he wears a skirt and red lipstick. They argue that gender is completely made up. But then when a guy wants to transition as a female bc he is different, he likes fashion, makeup, skirts, heels etc, and someone points out that he is a MAN, these people freak out and scream that it is false and the person is now a she, when you would think that they will accept that he is still a guy, but just different from the social norms. They are kind of acknowledging the gender stereotype, although in an odd way
There are some people who believe in abolishing the whole gender thing though…but that’s just stupid.

It’s honestly confusing. If gender is all made up, why bother with pronouns and indentifying with as ‘she’ or ‘he’.

I know I’m not making sense but I find that there’s a contradiction.

 

[edwest2]

Social norms exist for a reason. We have to discuss the “gender confusion” being marketed right now by the media and LGBT groups. They are redefining maleness and femaleness. It does matter.

Ed

 

[Lea101]

Social norms exist for a reason. We have to discuss the “gender confusion” being marketed right now by the media and LGBT groups. They are redefining maleness and femaleness. It does matter.

Ed

Honestly is there even anything we can do? The social norms that were set by Christians/conservatives in the past makes people who do not fit them as ‘weird’. For example, a woman who likes sports and beer and hates typically girly stuff will feel like a freak. Or a guy who is interested in fashion or makeup.

Then this causes people to encourage them. But by going against the social norms completely.

Which then leads us to this current mess of a society

Vicious cycle IMO. Hopefully God will help us out

Edited: we also need to discuss what is masculinity and what is femininity. The world has never got it right imo

 

[Bruised_Reed]

So you are saying because TG people see their bodies accurately, they are in touch with reality. But those with Body Dysmorphia also see their bodies accurately, they just don’t want a part to be ther any more; what is the difference?

No, people with body dysmorphia do not see their bodies accurately, specifically seeing some aspect as severely flawed. This is over simplifying it, but a person with body dysmorphia may have a tiny mole that’s the size of a period in Times New Roman 12 pt. font, but to them it’s the size of a dime and they can’t some thinking about it or trying to fix it.

I am also curious as to how TG people “know” that what they want to be is the opposite sex. A man, for example, does not know what being a woman is like. He knows only from the outside what it is to be a woman. How do we know that what he wants is to be a woman rather than just having the aspects of womanhood he can see applied to him?

They don’t want to be the opposite sex. They already are a sex that does not match their genitalia. They want the two to line up.

David Reimer was told he was a girl and was raised very deliberately as a girl. He even had the (reconstructed) genitalia of a girl. How did he know he was a boy even as a very young child? That is how people who are transgender know.

I am thinking in particular of the young man who wanted to use the girls’ locker room to change. He had no understanding of how the girls felt or why they felt that way. If he were truly female, this modesty would have come naturally to him.

Actually she does know which is why she doesn’t want to use the girls locker room.

 

[edwest2]

Honestly is there even anything we can do? The social norms that were set by Christians/conservatives in the past makes people who do not fit them as ‘weird’. For example, a woman who likes sports and beer and hates typically girly stuff will feel like a freak. Or a guy who is interested in fashion or makeup.

Then this causes people to encourage them. But by going against the social norms completely.

Which then leads us to this current mess of a society

Vicious cycle IMO. Hopefully God will help us out

Edited: we also need to discuss what is masculinity and what is femininity. The world has never got it right imo

The world has and does get it right. This new “change” is not beneficial. The Church teaches us what it means to be a man or woman. There were girls who were ‘tomboys’ growing up but that changed when they became adults.

Ed

 

[Peter_Plato]

Honestly is there even anything we can do? The social norms that were set by Christians/conservatives in the past makes people who do not fit them as ‘weird’. For example, a woman who likes sports and beer and hates typically girly stuff will feel like a freak. Or a guy who is interested in fashion or makeup.

Then this causes people to encourage them. But by going against the social norms completely.

Which then leads us to this current mess of a society

Vicious cycle IMO. Hopefully God will help us out

Edited: we also need to discuss what is masculinity and what is femininity. The world has never got it right imo

Well, no, social norms were not “set” by “Christians/conservatives.” They were part of the reality embedded in the biological landscape. Societies – not merely Christian or conservative ones – subsumed the biological reality into the way human beings related to one another. We can’t retrospectively go back and “blame” Christians and conservatives for what was the accepted human paradigm for thousands of years before “modern” secular progressive types decided they wanted to change everything about society merely to “progress” towards their own vision for human beings, as if they’ve even thought out all the possible repercussions of their imposed narrative to begin with. They haven’t. It is all a big social experiment with the future state of mankind hanging in the balance.

I suspect it makes the progressives feel somewhat powerful and important because they are changing the course of history merely because they can. Again, read CS Lewis’ The Abolition of Man to get a sense of why this is all very misconceived.

Begin, at least with the first chapter: Men Without Chests

 

[Strydersroom]

I think a little bit of empathy goes a really long way especially in this situation. Does anyone here actually have any transgender friends or acquaintances? I was fortunate enough to work with two transgender women the past 5 years in different jobs. We became friends and I absolutely respect them as coworkers and as women. I would never think of asking them what’s between their legs and they should absolutely use the women’s bathroom regardless of the aforementioned genitalia which really is their own business.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Honestly is there even anything we can do? The social norms that were set by Christians/conservatives in the past makes people who do not fit them as ‘weird’. For example, a woman who likes sports and beer and hates typically girly stuff will feel like a freak. Or a guy who is interested in fashion or makeup.

Then this causes people to encourage them. But by going against the social norms completely.

Which then leads us to this current mess of a society

Vicious cycle IMO. Hopefully God will help us out

Edited: we also need to discuss what is masculinity and what is femininity. The world has never got it right imo

The world has and does get it right. This new “change” is not beneficial. The Church teaches us what it means to be a man or woman. There were girls who were ‘tomboys’ growing up but that changed when they became adults.

Ed

But why do they have to change, Ed? Why can’t they continue to enjoy whatever pastimes they have that may not conform to another person’s idea of what is the norm? Why can’t a guy like wearing makeup? Decades ago men were the ones who wore makeup specifically for special occasions but now it’s flipped. There are some people then and now who think makeup being worn by anyone is a sin.

There are some things that are not a big deal but a tiny minority think it is a big deal and then as the different sides duke it out it becomes even bigger deal.

wishes more men would embrace eyeliner…and nail polish

 

[edwest2]

I think a little bit of empathy goes a really long way especially in this situation. Does anyone here actually have any transgender friends or acquaintances? I was fortunate enough to work with two transgender women the past 5 years in different jobs. We became friends and I absolutely respect them as coworkers and as women. I would never think of asking them what’s between their legs and they should absolutely use the women’s bathroom regardless of the aforementioned genitalia which really is their own business.

No, it’s not their own business anymore. Court orders have been issued that force access to biological men to restrooms, locker rooms and changing places where only biological women are allowed.

In the late 1970s, at the hospital where I worked, a female employee had surgery to appear male. There was no outcry made for any reason. She cut her hair, grew a mustache and appeared male, but her bone structure remained female. No one bothered her. She continued with her job.

Today - forcing others to conform should be viewed as wrong. That’s why lawsuits have been filed to stop this. I was in a club around the same time period and saw what I thought was an attractive woman. I was quickly corrected by the guy sitting next to me. “You’re barking up the wrong tree.” So, a man who can convincingly dress like a woman could enter a ladies’ restroom and attempt to assault somebody. And he’s not transgender.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

But why do they have to change, Ed? Why can’t they continue to enjoy whatever pastimes they have that may not conform to another person’s idea of what is the norm? Why can’t a guy like wearing makeup? Decades ago men were the ones who wore makeup specifically for special occasions but now it’s flipped. There are some people then and now who think makeup being worn by anyone is a sin.

There are some things that are not a big deal but a tiny minority think it is a big deal and then as the different sides duke it out it becomes even bigger deal.

wishes more men would embrace eyeliner…and nail polish

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599

cbsnews.com/news/pope-francis-laments-children-being-taught-gender-is-a-choice/

We are headed toward tribalism and fragmentation, by force of law. People don’t need my permission to do whatever they want. But truth is truth, today and tomorrow.

Ed

 

[St_Francis]

Well, no, social norms were not “set” by “Christians/conservatives.” They were part of the reality embedded in the biological landscape. Societies – not merely Christian or conservative ones – subsumed the biological reality into the way human beings related to one another. We can’t retrospectively go back and “blame” Christians and conservatives for what was the accepted human paradigm for thousands of years before “modern” secular progressive types decided they wanted to change everything about society merely to “progress” towards their own vision for human beings, as if they’ve even thought out all the possible repercussions of their imposed narrative to begin with. They haven’t. It is all a big social experiment with the future state of mankind hanging in the balance.

I suspect it makes the progressives feel somewhat powerful and important because they are changing the course of history merely because they can. Again, read CS Lewis’ The Abolition of Man to get a sense of why this is all very misconceived.

Begin, at least with the first chapter: Men Without Chests

The talk I linked to earlier discusses this; these “rules” are not “Christian” per se, but part of the natural law followed by the vast majority of societies for the vast majority of history. Oddly enough, when they cease to be followed, the societies often cease to exist.

 

[Rau]

…It is one thing to be discomforted by what you have become, psychologically speaking, and over which you have some measure of control, but it is another thing entirely to be discomforted by realities which are, ultimately, beyond our ability to change them.

But there is no less “discomfort”. That is also a reality.

Oh, sure, a few superficial or cosmetic changes might be available, but the reality of actually changing one’s biological sex is beyond anyone’s control. What is the point of enabling a psychological outlook that believes itself to have the license to change reality at that level?

Certainly it is beyond one’s control and I don’t think that is doubted by anyone. I believe the motivation for SRS is not some belief that reality can be changed. I understand it is proffered only as a practical means of relieving suffering. The surgery is such an horrendous proposition (IMO) that I have to presume the suffering is real. I should think any alternative, including no action at all, would be preferable for the majority of sufferers.

The trajectory which seems to be implied by your “layered” view of reality is that human beings who are discomforted by living in a human skin and suffer – not merely from gender dysphoria, but – from species dysphoria ought to be, in principle, supported in doing whatever they can to assuage their discomfort of that reality.

No. I’m not advocating SRS or anything else. I simply gave a description, to the best of my ability, of the experience of the sufferer. Do you have a better one?

…as CS Lewis pointed out in The Abolition of Man, we really have no competency in the area of changing the ultimate ground of reality…

Very true.

Peter - your response to what I thought was a down to earth post attempting to explain the difference between a person living apart from reality, vs. the person living fully connected with reality, but with unexplainable - but describable - (and in some cases, extreme) distress surprises me. It’s as though you’ve used me as a proxy for all the extremists you’ve ever come across on the subject.

 

[Lea101]

Well, no, social norms were not “set” by “Christians/conservatives.” They were part of the reality embedded in the biological landscape. Societies – not merely Christian or conservative ones – subsumed the biological reality into the way human beings related to one another. We can’t retrospectively go back and “blame” Christians and conservatives for what was the accepted human paradigm for thousands of years before “modern” secular progressive types decided they wanted to change everything about society merely to “progress” towards their own vision for human beings, as if they’ve even thought out all the possible repercussions of their imposed narrative to begin with. They haven’t. It is all a big social experiment with the future state of mankind hanging in the balance.

I suspect it makes the progressives feel somewhat powerful and important because they are changing the course of history merely because they can. Again, read CS Lewis’ The Abolition of Man to get a sense of why this is all very misconceived.

Begin, at least with the first chapter: Men Without Chests

You don’t feel that Christianity had an impact on social norms in the US? Not today, but I’m talking about like back in the days where girls are not allowed to wear pants, for example. You can’t find “thou shall not wear pants if female” in the bible, but a lot of people believed it was a sin.

Religion did help to shape people’s views. It’s not 100% responsible for it, of course.

Conservative people tend to have a meltdown if a male child plays with his sister’s barbie, for example. I’m not saying that Christianity is at fault, but it does have a role in the way how we behave towards stuff like this. The USA was very Christianized, but misogyny was extremely prevalent. Christians used the bible to back their behavior up. Jesus never said to ‘deny women of an education’, but people at the time thought that that was what Jesus would want or at the very least, Jesus wouldn’t care. This does not show that the religion is that sexist. Likewise, Catholics’ idea of womanhood stemmed from Mary. Gender roles, here, is affected by religion.

Saudi Arabia for example, is an easy example to look at (Islam).

 

[Lea101]

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599

cbsnews.com/news/pope-francis-laments-children-being-taught-gender-is-a-choice/

We are headed toward tribalism and fragmentation, by force of law. People don’t need my permission to do whatever they want. But truth is truth, today and tomorrow.

Ed

You are acting like hating dresses and skirts and liking rugby is immoral/needs to be changed.

 

[Rau]

You don’t feel that Christianity had an impact on social norms in the US? Not today, but I’m talking about like back in the days where girls are not allowed to wear pants, for example. You can’t find “thou shall not wear pants if female” in the bible, but a lot of people believed it was a sin…Conservative people tend to have a meltdown if a male child plays with his sister’s barbie, for example. I’m not saying that Christianity is at fault, but it does have a role in the way how we behave towards stuff like this. The USA was very Christianized, but misogyny was extremely prevalent. Christians used the bible to back their behavior up. Jesus never said to ‘deny women of an education’, but people at the time thought that that was what Jesus would want or at the very least, Jesus wouldn’t care. This does not show that the religion is that sexist. Likewise, Catholics’ idea of womanhood stemmed from Mary. Gender roles, here, is affected by religion…

Historical realities also played a part. Decisions about roles had to be made, eg. “which one of us should go into the fields and do the “back-breaking” work, and which one of us should tend to the home and the babies and the children?”

 

[Lea101]

Historical realities also played a part. Decisions about roles had to be made, eg. “which one of us should go into the fields and do the “back-breaking” work, and which one of us should tend to the home and the babies and the children?”

Yes, I’m not denying that.

 

[St_Francis]

Historical realities also played a part. Decisions about roles had to be made, eg. “which one of us should go into the fields and do the “back-breaking” work, and which one of us should tend to the home and the babies and the children?”

I don’t think decisions about roles were made so much as acceded to. Women could not go off on hunting trips because they fed the babies, that sort of thing. Farming tended to be a mixed bag depending on how much hunting needed to be done, as the fieldwork could be done by women if the men had to be gone for long periods of time hunting, etc.

 

[Rau]

I don’t think decisions about roles were made so much as acceded to. Women could not go off on hunting trips because they fed the babies, that sort of thing.

Well, yeah. I think that’s what I’m saying. Realities made certain divisions of labour the logical choices.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I don’t think decisions about roles were made so much as acceded to. Women could not go off on hunting trips because they fed the babies, that sort of thing. Farming tended to be a mixed bag depending on how much hunting needed to be done, as the fieldwork could be done by women if the men had to be gone for long periods of time hunting, etc.

Hunting wasn’t that big a thing.

 

[Theo520]

I think a little bit of empathy goes a really long way especially in this situation. Does anyone here actually have any transgender friends or acquaintances? I was fortunate enough to work with two transgender women the past 5 years in different jobs. We became friends and I absolutely respect them as coworkers and as women. I would never think of asking them what’s between their legs and they should absolutely use the women’s bathroom regardless of the aforementioned genitalia which really is their own business.

My only contact has been through someone I met at work. “she” had a tough childhood and was recently out of the Dept of Corrections. I agree with providing respect and compassion, but not access to women’s gym changing room. “She” is also a registered sex offender.