transgenderism

[Exiled_Child]

If I may to provide clarification, Body Dysmorphic Disorder is closely related to eating disorders and obsessive compulsive disorders, but is quite distinct from gender dysphoria. Those individuals with BDD focus on imagined or minor and unnoticeable physical defects that become focused and obsession. You are correct to identify weight and perception of “fat” when looking in mirror as symptomatic.

However, transgendered individuals generally do not see a false image and develop obsession over imagined or minor imperfection. They see themselves with physical clarity, but experience a cognitive dissonance between their outward appearance and their inner perception of gender identity.

While BDD is often successfully addressed with Cognitive Behavioral Approaches, medications, and individual and family therapies, gender dysphoria is unresponsive to such techniques.

Hi Brigida,

I’m really curious about something you mentioned. Have there been therapy and/or medication protocols aimed at gender dysphoria in the past? I don’t think I’ve ever heard the history of that before.

 

[Brygida]

Hi Brigida,

I’m really curious about something you mentioned. Have there been therapy and/or medication protocols aimed at gender dysphoria in the past? I don’t think I’ve ever heard the history of that before.

Medication, as we think of it today in the treatment of various mental disorders/conditions is a rather new concept. And while gender dysphoria often presents with various comorbidities, such as major depression, and therefore antidepressants can be used with some success in addressing the mood disorder, there is no medication designed or shown effective in the alleviation of gender dysphoria itself. Symptoms of depression, for example, may improve, however, gender dysphoria itself is not abated.

In the past, gender dysphoria, while certainly recognized, was not largely distinguished between cross-dressing, homosexuality, etc. When I first began my career in psychology, horrendous aversion therapies were attempted, including electric shocks, various medications that would make patients violently ill, various techniques we would label as torture today, and often lobotomies. At one time, it was extraordinarily easy to have individuals committed involuntarily to mental hospitals, and quite often their consent was not needed for such treatments.

There are some organizations that attempt to use the same techniques they use to treat homosexuality, known as “reparative” or “conversion” therapy. They often utilise much milder forms of aversion therapy, and to be fair, consent is always required, however, they produce no credible evidence of success and in my opinion do much damage in the process. The last 20 years of my career were largely devoted to assisting individuals who came out of these programs, ultimately finding themselves unsuccessful in accomplishing the promised changed and finding themselves in a very bad place, suicidal ideation being quite prominent among these individuals.

Please feel free to ask any questions. This is a very difficult topic for most of us to understand, but I do have 50 years of experience working with LGBT community and am happy to foster the understanding when I can. I of course, cannot and would not offer medical advice, but I am happy to share my views based on my experience Just please excuse the English. It is not my best.

 

[anonymous_in_fl]

However, transgendered individuals generally do not see a false image and develop obsession over imagined or minor imperfection. They see themselves with physical clarity, but experience a cognitive dissonance between their outward appearance and their inner perception of gender identity.
.

So because someone claims to “feel” like a woman even though biologically they are male, we should put all reason and evidence aside and join in their delusion? As mentioned somewhere earlier in this very lengthy thread, society does not do that with other delusions. We compassionately try to help the person see reality; we do not co-sign their delusion.
I, for one, will not join in the delusion; especially when our current Pope has spoken out so vehemently against it. This is my opinion.

 

[LethalMouse]

Those numbers are only for those who transitioned over a quarter century ago, for those after 1979 it isn’t an issue.

For a lot of transgender people hormones are excellent at improving and stabilizing mood.

Fair enough on the suicide thing I suppose

But the fact that they are saved by ingesting a brain altering substance? Isn’t needing to take meds to avoid suicide basically the definition of having a mental illness and not of being “right”???

I mean it goes to any example, if a bipolar needs meds then bipolar is not their true state of goodness anymore than a diabetic needing insulin makes it so that people “should” have diabetes…

I would wager there are better treatments, but it is like birth control. I always assumed the “medical reasons” for BC were fine. And sometimes occasionally maybe they are given our current level of med science. But I have recently heard how many other and even better treatments there are for certain things other than BC. But then culture says to just hand out BC because everyone Is doing it anyway and it is easier than thinking.

Instead of treating at large trans as a mental disorder culture is saying to treat it in a way without actually finding the truly best way.

 

[Rau]

So because someone claims to “feel” like a woman even though biologically they are male, we should put all reason and evidence aside and join in their delusion?

I saw no such suggestion and drew no such conclusion from what Brygida wrote.

 

[Rau]

…Instead of treating at large trans as a mental disorder culture is saying to treat it in a way without actually finding the truly best way.

Certain “culture” may well be saying that. But medical science is also saying it is pretty much at a loss to know how to treat the condition (other than so-called “transitioning”). And of course there is debate about the effectiveness and net benefits of that approach too.

 

[anonymous_in_fl]

I saw no such suggestion and drew no such conclusion from what Brygida wrote.

The statement I reference is the statement: “They see themselves with physical clarity, but experience a cognitive dissonance between their outward appearance and their inner perception of gender identity.”

Cognitive Dissonance = How one thinks or feels about ones self (subjective data)
vs.
Outward Appearance = What is seen objectively by others or ones self (objective data)

So when someone says " I feel like a woman" (subjective data), even though there is objective data and evidence to the contrary then that is where the delusion lies.

 

[LethalMouse]

Certain “culture” may well be saying that. But medical science is also saying it is pretty much at a loss to know how to treat the condition (other than so-called “transitioning”). And of course there is debate about the effectiveness and net benefits of that approach too.

Yet there are those who overcome this via God.

Most either chose secular atheism or non practicing theoretical God who is okay with it…

If there are religious straight people who can forego sex then all can essentially do the same.

If a priest runs off with a new civil/protestant married bride we call him sinner

If someone becomes a woman we say they need it?

Lol we all have our trials.

If a man/woman needs to be the other then the priest needs a wife.

The cleptomaniac needs to steal

The serial killer needs to kill

Etc . Etc…

 

[edwest2]

Yet there are those who overcome this via God.

Most either chose secular atheism or non practicing theoretical God who is okay with it…

If there are religious straight people who can forego sex then all can essentially do the same.

If a priest runs off with a new civil/protestant married bride we call him sinner

If someone becomes a woman we say they need it?

Lol we all have our trials.

If a man/woman needs to be the other then the priest needs a wife.

The cleptomaniac needs to steal

The serial killer needs to kill

Etc . Etc…

I’ve been suicidal and treated for it. I’ve had other mental health issues that I’d rather not mention. I’ve interacted with others in various settings that believed certain things were true when they clearly were not.

The general public should not accept the default position that because the APA decided Gender Identity Disorder is no longer a disorder, unless it bothers you, due to lobbying by LGBT activists that judges can now force us to use certain restrooms or shower with or change clothes with transgender persons present.

I think Kleptomania is a good example because the cause is still described as ambiguous.

Ed

 

[St_Francis]

“From everything I’ve read the gender ideology they attack is the third wave feminist kind where they claim that all psychological differences between males and females is nurture and that men and women are interchangeable such as in marriage. Coincidentally, those people tend to vehemently hate transgender people.”

I asked about this comment of yours and you said you had mentioned it before. I was wondering about examples of what you are referring to.

For a psychological treatment you’d basically have to take a sledgehammer to their mind and honestly SRS is much less damaging than a lobotomy done to deliberately destroy.

I think I will ask Brygita about this–not that I don’t trust you! but she mentioned having a lot of background in psych with various people, some of whom are TG.

While I haven’t been paralyzed from an attack I have had true heinous things done to me (which I don’t want to talk about) and honestly while having the same thing done to the perpetrator would like have made me feel like a karmic serving of justice had been carried out it wouldn’t have helped the psychological anguish I suffered

Are you asking me to engage in over-generalization? I can totally see someone being as I describe, maybe it shows I have vengeful tendencies? Of course one would advocate that the victim handle her psychological distress in a different way, but that is what we are suggesting wrt the state of believing one is the opposite sex.

Gender identity doesn’t matter that much to a person whose gender identity matches that which people expect them to perform.

I think it is ironic that this is a much greater issue now that there are fewer expectations of how people should behave vis à vis their sex.

You will have to expand on what you mean before I can answer that.

You asked if I thought the brain is part of the body. Given our discussion about the plasticity of the brain, I wondered if you believe our thoughts are just randomly generated by the brain, or if their source is nonPhysical.

What kind would you find satisfactory?

Evidence which shows a clear difference and which shows the cause/result order and which shows a necessity for SRS; after all, why should the brain take precedence over the body and require very invasive surgery of the body?

We have known for decades the brain can partially rebuild itself following trauma such as amputation.

I’m not sure how this relates to what I wrote?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

So because someone claims to “feel” like a woman even though biologically they are male, we should put all reason and evidence aside and join in their delusion? As mentioned somewhere earlier in this very lengthy thread, society does not do that with other delusions. We compassionately try to help the person see reality; we do not co-sign their delusion.
I, for one, will not join in the delusion; especially when our current Pope has spoken out so vehemently against it. This is my opinion.

She is saying that transgender people are quite aware of what their body is, rather unlike anorexic people or people suffering from body dysmorphic disorder.

Fair enough on the suicide thing I suppose

But the fact that they are saved by ingesting a brain altering substance? Isn’t needing to take meds to avoid suicide basically the definition of having a mental illness and not of being “right”???

I mean it goes to any example, if a bipolar needs meds then bipolar is not their true state of goodness anymore than a diabetic needing insulin makes it so that people “should” have diabetes…

I would wager there are better treatments, but it is like birth control. I always assumed the “medical reasons” for BC were fine. And sometimes occasionally maybe they are given our current level of med science. But I have recently heard how many other and even better treatments there are for certain things other than BC. But then culture says to just hand out BC because everyone Is doing it anyway and it is easier than thinking.

Instead of treating at large trans as a mental disorder culture is saying to treat it in a way without actually finding the truly best way.

If someone’s body doesn’t produce enough of a hormone and this deficiency causes the brain to perform poorly would you say it is the brain that is defective for reacting poorly or the body for being deficient? Sure the brain may be exhibiting the symptoms, but those are a consequence of the body. For transgender people hormones, even without transitioning, can provide substantial improvement to their mental health.

Sometimes things like better nutrition, more sleep, etc. may be better than BC at treating certain conditions, but this isn’t always the case, sometimes birth control is the only thing that works (other than extreme measures such as a hysterectomy).

Certain “culture” may well be saying that. But medical science is also saying it is pretty much at a loss to know how to treat the condition (other than so-called “transitioning”). And of course there is debate about the effectiveness and net benefits of that approach too.

Care to provide some modern studies showing that transitioning is questionable in effectiveness?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I asked about this comment of yours and you said you had mentioned it before. I was wondering about examples of what you are referring to.

TERF are Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists they generally claim that psychological differences between males and females are either purely nurture or so substantially nurture that it dwarfs other things.

I think I will ask Brygita about this–not that I don’t trust you! but she mentioned having a lot of background in psych with various people, some of whom are TG.

My point was gender identity is so core to a person that you’d basically have to destroy the person to change the situation.

Are you asking me to engage in over-generalization? I can totally see someone being as I describe, maybe it shows I have vengeful tendencies? Of course one would advocate that the victim handle her psychological distress in a different way, but that is what we are suggesting wrt the state of believing one is the opposite sex.

Even if you enjoy watching someone get crippled and have to deal with it, it still doesn’t fix the fact that you yourself would be struggling with being disabled.

I think it is ironic that this is a much greater issue now that there are fewer expectations of how people should behave vis à vis their sex.

It was always an issue, it was just obscured from the public by incarcerating them in mental institutions or taking ice picks to their brains.

You asked if I thought the brain is part of the body. Given our discussion about the plasticity of the brain, I wondered if you believe our thoughts are just randomly generated by the brain, or if their source is nonPhysical.

Thoughts are often not random and are much more the consequence of external stimuli than the average person wants to admit. I think there is some difference between the physical brain and the mind.

Evidence which shows a clear difference and which shows the cause/result order and which shows a necessity for SRS; after all, why should the brain take precedence over the body and require very invasive surgery of the body?

Elaborate on what “cause/result order” is supposed to mean

There have so far been no methods that “fix the brain” instead of bringing the body into alignment with the mind.

I’m not sure how this relates to what I wrote?

You said the brain is plastic, I was agreeing that to some degree it is

 

[edwest2]

Here’s one study:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Ed

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Here’s one study:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Ed

And how it particular does it show that transitioning is questionable in effectiveness?

 

[Rau]

The statement I reference is the statement: “They see themselves with physical clarity, but experience a cognitive dissonance between their outward appearance and their inner perception of gender identity.”

Cognitive Dissonance = How one thinks or feels about ones self (subjective data)
vs.
Outward Appearance = What is seen objectively by others or ones self (objective data)

So when someone says " I feel like a woman" (subjective data), even though there is objective data and evidence to the contrary then that is where the delusion lies.

She did not reject that.

 

[Rau]

…Care to provide some modern studies showing that transitioning is questionable in effectiveness?

That challenge needs to be put to those who claim it is not effective. I said that its effectiveness is debated. AFAIK, it is effective for a proportion in relieving their dysphoria, yet John’s Hopkins ceased the treatment.

 

[Rau]

Yet there are those who overcome this via God.

Most either chose secular atheism or non practicing theoretical God who is okay with it…

If there are religious straight people who can forego sex then all can essentially do the same.

If a priest runs off with a new civil/protestant married bride we call him sinner

If someone becomes a woman we say they need it?

Lol we all have our trials.

If a man/woman needs to be the other then the priest needs a wife.

The cleptomaniac needs to steal

The serial killer needs to kill

Etc . Etc…

Were you disagreeing with anything in my post?

 

[goout]

Science has been increasingly showing that sex is a lot less binary than commonly thought. It also appears that brain sex and body sex can be different due to hormonal imbalances in the womb causing the brain to over or under masculinize.

I have a sister who believes she is a lost male child of the Kennedy family. She believes her hair is really black and she had a Boston accent. And that “they” changed her sexual organs when she was kidnapped. She is mentally ill.

Although it might seem superficially tolerant and open minded, it is cruel to encourage people who tend toward confusion, anxiety, and despair, to indulge their confusion.

 

[Rau]

…Although it might seem superficially tolerant and open minded, it is cruel to encourage people who tend toward confusion, anxiety, and despair, to indulge their confusion.

I think the truth of this statement depends on the options available, and their anticipated consequences. **

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

That challenge needs to be put to those who claim it is not effective. I said that its effectiveness is debated. AFAIK, it is effective for a proportion in relieving their dysphoria, yet John’s Hopkins ceased the treatment.

Johns Hopkins discontinued it because Paul McHugh is a partisan hack.

I have a sister who believes she is a lost male child of the Kennedy family. She believes her hair is really black and she had a Boston accent. And that “they” changed her sexual organs when she was kidnapped. She is mentally ill.

Although it might seem superficially tolerant and open minded, it is cruel to encourage people who tend toward confusion, anxiety, and despair, to indulge their confusion.

By the Standards of Care she would not be prescribed HRT or approved for SRS.