Traps, lies, and deceptions

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bengal_fan:
i only capitalize when talking about God, Jesus, or anything referring back to Him.

i am not going to get into defending the organization i work for with you again. if you aren’t interested (which you say you aren’t) then why do it? i won’t cast my pearls before swine for all you want to do is trample. anyone else want proof…e-mail me.
On the contrary, I am very much interested in hearing a defense of your organization, Young Life. I want you to prove me wrong, but I want proof rather than just that you say so. I will back down if you can give any support for what you say. So I have to assume by your unwillingness to debate the issue on its merits that I am right in what I have learned about Young Life.

Cast your pearls before swine? That is a fine Bible passage. I hope that you are not saying that your pearls are Young Life and swine refers to me. Surely, you would not be so unkind.
 
assume all you want. i just know that you really don’t care. i have offered you evidence and you say you don’t want it. i have tried to upload the letter from the bishop of colorado springs but it will not upload, that is why i have offerred to e-mail it to anyone who wishes. i have spoken personally with scott hahn. he talks about the fact that young life is what introduced him to Christ, and with me personally has praised the work young life does. i have spoken personally with catholic staff. tom howard has also spoken positively of young life. one of the people in charge of the stuebenville conferences used to work for young life and still very much supports it’s work. why? because they all know that young life is very upfront with students, parents and the like. that they are truly inter-denominational (we receive financial support from churches from every denomination including catholic and only talk about the basics of Christianity which all Christian denomination would agree with and we encourage students to become involved in their churches, meaning if they already attend a catholic church they should study the catchism and become as involved as possible, if they attend a baptist church i would say to be involved with sunday school and youth group, etc). it doesn’t bother me that you don’t like us or even disagree with us. that’s fine. go and evangelize in your own way. it does bother me that you so unlovingly bash something that you truly know nothing about.
 
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bengal_fan:
assume all you want. i just know that you really don’t care. i have offered you evidence and you say you don’t want it. i have tried to upload the letter from the bishop of colorado springs but it will not upload, that is why i have offerred to e-mail it to anyone who wishes. i have spoken personally with scott hahn. he talks about the fact that young life is what introduced him to Christ, and with me personally has praised the work young life does. i have spoken personally with catholic staff. one of the people in charge of the stuebenville conferences used to work for young life and still very much supports it’s work. why? because they all know that young life is very upfront with students, parents and the like. that they are truly inter-denominational (we receive financial support from churches from every denomination including catholic). it doesn’t bother me that you don’t like us or even disagree with us. that’s fine. go and evangelize in your own way. it does bother me that you so unlovingly bash something that you truly know nothing about.
Once again, the proof you offer is totally unsupported and uncorroborated. Can you give me any proof for your claim that Young Life receives financial support from Catholic Churches? (Or is this just another statement that you make about Young Life but for which you will only offer proof in a private message?)

I don’t like Young Life? Like? I vehemently disagree with Young Life’s deceptive and dishonest tactics. If Young Life were upfront and honest about what it is and what it represents, I would have no problem with Young Life. I believe Young Life is a well-meaning EVANGELICAL FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT youth organization. But it is not an appropriate youth ministry for Catholic youth.

And to the contrary, I know A LOT about Young Life. Maybe even more than you do.
 
La Chiara:
And to the contrary, I know A LOT about Young Life. Maybe even more than you do.
yeah, i’m sure you know more than some one who has worked with young life for 10 years.

i will not give out copies of our donor list, that is a violation of their privacy. it seems you think i am a liar, and if you want to think that, it is fine. i have offered it to you, you have refused. it seems your anonymity is more important than the truth. i am done with this conversation now as it is fruitless. you have no desire to know the truth about young life, you had a bad experience and have now lumped it all together. good luck in your mission to tear down other Christians, i’ll be out here building them up.
 
anyone else who wants to know the truth about young life and why it should not be included in this thread, feel free to pm me or e-mail me as i am available through this site and will respond. a little about me is that i am a protestant who is coming home to the catholic church (partly because of another young life staff person who is catholic).
 
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bengal_fan:
yeah, i’m sure you know more than some one who has worked with young life for 10 years.

i will not give out copies of our donor list, that is a violation of their privacy. it seems you think i am a liar, and if you want to think that, it is fine. i have offered it to you, you have refused. it seems your anonymity is more important than the truth. i am done with this conversation now as it is fruitless. you have no desire to know the truth about young life, you had a bad experience and have now lumped it all together. good luck in your mission to tear down other Christians, i’ll be out here building them up.
You have as many reasons why you can’t provide proof as you have personal attacks. I have not called you a liar. Nor am I on a “mission to tear down other Christians”. Instead, my only mission is to counter Young Life’s deceptive tactics–that IS the topic of this thread–as it evangelizes to Catholic youth. You choose not to listen to what I am saying, you invent things I haven’t said, and you imply that you (and only you) spread “the truth”. But worst of all, you offer no incontrovertible proof of your contentions.
 
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bengal_fan:
anyone else who wants to know the truth about young life and why it should not be included in this thread, feel free to pm me or e-mail me as i am available through this site and will respond. a little about me is that i am a protestant who is coming home to the catholic church (partly because of another young life staff person who is catholic).
And I am a Catholic who has never left the Church and loves the Church. My love for the Catholic faith is why I am concerned about non-Catholic Christian organizations that evangelize to Catholic youth. Welcome back to the one true Church, Bengal Fan!
 
Not to take sides in this discourse, but allow me to post Scott Hahn’s exact words about his experience as a minister in Young Life:
My four years of college were spent triple majoring in Philosophy, Theology in Scripture and Economics. But they were also spent doing ministry in Young Life. I wanted to in effect repay God out of gratitude for how He had used Young Life in my life to introduce me to Christ. So for those four years I devoted myself to reaching unchurched kids who didn’t know about Christ, and I confess that this category included Catholic kids in the high school where I worked because I looked at these poor benighted souls who really didn’t know Jesus Christ. I discovered after several Bible studies that not only did these kids not know Jesus Christ, but practically every Catholic high school kid I met didn’t even know what the Catholic Church taught. If one or two of them knew what the Church taught, they didn’t know why. They didn’t have any reasons to back up their beliefs as Catholics. So getting them to see from the Bible, the Gospel as I understood it from Martin Luther, from an anti-Catholic perspective, was like picking off ducks in a barrel. They weren’t ready, they were unequipped, they were defenseless.
star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/sctcnv.html

Draw your own conclusions. 🙂
 
Catholics can be easily confused about John 6 by Protestants.

Ironically, proper teaching of John 6 is a powerful revealer of Protestant error when taught correctly. John 6 should work on the offensive against error as well the defensive. I urge Catholics to understand John 6. I think this can bring many to our true faith.

The key: The flesh that profits nothing is flesh born of flesh, the flesh that is the bread from heaven is flesh born of spirit.

Look at John 6:63 in light of John 3:6 and John 1:14

It’s most enlightening and should indeed draw many to the truth of the Catholic faith.

Protestants also say that John 6 does not relate to the last supper. This is very obviously an error and it is literally ridiculous that Protestants claim this. See how directly John 6 relates to the Last Supper:

John 6:51 the bread
Luke 22:19 he took the bread

John 6:51 **that I will give **
Luke 22:19 gave it to them

John 6:51 **is my flesh **
Luke 22:19 is my body

John 6:51 for the life of the world
Luke 22:19 for you

John 6 makes it so clear that Protestants are in serious error that it is both somewhat shocking regarding Protestantism and exciting for Catholics as a confirmation of Catholicism.

God bless you father (Cestusdei) for the care of your sheep. May all priests be as vigilant.

Greg McPherran
 
John 6 continued…

Protestants admit that their Protestant “communion” is nothing more than earthly bread (i.e. flesh born of flesh). Therefore, their “flesh profits nothing” argument serves to prove that their Protestant “communion” profits nothing! Their own argument backfires on them!

It would appear that in Protestant error, we see that God has sent the proud away empty as he promised in Scripture, for their communion is empty of the true presence of Jesus. When Protestants humbly submit to Jesus, He will feed them with His true Bread from Heaven.

It is the Catholic Communion of flesh born of spirit that profits eternal life!

Oh, God, thank you for your true love in your Catholic Church. I am beginning to see just how deeply you love us, oh God. May this love never cease to grow in us that we may bring your truth to the world!

Greg
 
I am delighted that bengal is returning to the Catholic Church, but we are getting off track a bit. The idea was to share what deceptive tactics we have experienced from those who proslytize Catholics. For example we had a few years ago a big evangelist come to town. People who went to the crusade handed in cards indicating they wanted to be contacted by a church and listing their affiliation. Some of the fundamentalists stole cards that said Catholic and sent them letters inviting them to Brother Billy Bob’s Faith Emporeum.
 
I just want to add a few praises for Young Life and a few thoughts.

(I’m a convert to Catholicism, April 10, 2004.)

I don’t think Young Life can be accused of being “fundamental” or even “evangelical.”

I was raised in a Conference Baptist Church. It’s been many years (Class of 1975), but back then, our church never really encouraged kids to get involved with Young Life because they thought the Gospel message was too watered-down (Just the basics–follow Jesus, very little else). Our Youth sponsors thought that Young Life was just too low-key on the Bible, with not enough “meat” for Christian kids.

Our church preferred to see kids come to their Youth Group rather than get involved with Young Life or Campus Life.

(Note: My Conference Baptist Church, and the CB denomination in general, is very tolerant and accepting of Catholics, and our pastor was good friends with the priest in the Catholic Church that I now attend. Our church even got together with Catholics a few times to promote unity and friendship. I never heard anything bad about Catholics from my church or denomination; on the contrary, I heard a lot of good about Catholics.)

I think the feelings about Young Life still linger among truly fundamental denominations. They really don’t like the simple, basic, “follow Jesus” message. They want something more “fundamental,” more conservative, more “accept Jesus into your heart to be your personal Savior and Lord.” They have a real problem with something that they perceive as “ecumenical.” To some Fundamentalists, “ecumenical” = “one-world” = “Antichrist!”

I don’t know if Young Life still uses this simple message, but when I talked to a Young Life leader a few years ago about getting a group started in my daughter’s high school, it seemed pretty non-denomination, extremely basic Christianity.

One thing to think about–Young Life is still allowed and even welcome in many public and private-secular schools, while churches of all denominations, Catholic and Protestant, are virtually shut out. I think that we should encourage groups like Young Life that at least get kids thinking about Jesus Christ and His claims. It sure beats a lot of the organizations that are hanging out in high schools.

And I think Catholic kids, if they don’t have a strong youth group in their own church, should be encouraged to join Young Life and live out their Catholic Christianity along with all the Protestants! The way I see it, this will encourage kids to look into Catholicism. Of course, this means that the Catholic kids should be well-catechized, and if there is no youth group in their church to do the teaching, then it’s up to the parents.

A Catholic kid doesn’t have to be sucked into Protestantism. I think it’s just as likely that a Protestant kid could be “drawn” to Catholicism. It may not happen for years, but it plants a seed. I think this happened in me.

The other thing that Catholic families can do is invite the Young Life meetings into their home. (I don’t know if Young Life still meets in homes, but it used to.) When I was growing up Protestant, I met so many really cool Catholics who were obviously Christians just like me, including Catholic teenagers. That made it a lot easier for me to eventually come home to the Catholic faith. I didn’t have to overcome the idea that many Protestants have that “Catholics aren’t really Christians.”

But if you hide in your Catholic Church and refuse to meet Protestants halfway, it just makes Protestants think even weirder things about you. Staying away from Young Life and criticizing it will only create more bad feelings between Catholics and Protestants. I say come out, come out, wherever you are, and show the Protestants what Catholic Christianity is all about.
 
cestusdei vbmenu_register(“postmenu_165807”, true); I remember cards like that. We would hold community rallies, uniting several cities and denominations. At the altar call, we had decision cards filled out for follow-up. Those who belonged to a participating church were forwarded to that church and the rest were split up by the ministers for follow-up. It was a proselyting boon to evangelicals.
 
Cat–
The reason I posted this issue on the “Traps, lies, and deceptions” threads is because Young Life uses deceptions and half-truths to evangelize to Catholic youth. The Scott Hahn quote certainly confirmed that as a Young Life youth leader, Hahn took pride in preaching Protestant beliefs to poorly catechesized Catholic youth. In my area, Young Life has successfully lured away the Catholic youth who used to and would otherwise go to the Catholic youth group, leaving the Catholic youth group a shell of what it used to be. At least part of the reason, is that Young Life is much better funded and actively targets Catholic youth. I can’t imagine the howls of anger if a Catholic youth minister gained access to the public schools under the guise of “non-denominational” youth ministry.
 
Cat-

You don’t say if you have (or even personally know) Catholic kids that attend Young Life. My impression is that is not the case.Those of us who do have the responsibility to protect the faith of our children. Even well catechized children can be swayed by a simplistic message and intense peer pressure.

Perhaps you have rosy memories or impressions of Young Life: if that is so, I am happy for you. But taking into consideration what Scott Hahn said about his own tactics when he was a minister in this group (see Post #67), what guarantee does a parent have that similar pressure won’t be applied in any particular Young Life group? Perhaps some might take that chance with their child’s faith. Some of us won’t.

If Protestants think Catholics are “weird” for doing for not letting their kids face possible indoctrination, so be it. I don’t see them breaking down the doors to Life Teen in my area or attending Rosary Rallies.

Having said that, the topic of Young Life threatens to hijack the original intent of this thread. Perhaps a new thread should be started?
 
I have to say I have had problems with Protestant para-church ministries. When one guy came to town I had lunch with him. It was all very polite. At the end of the meal I told him, “I used to be a Protestant minister. I know how these things work. If any of my youth leave the Catholic Church and join another because of your ministry then I will publically denounce you from the pulpit. I will do whatever it takes to make your life difficult and will forbid any Catholic youth from even talking to you.” He got the point.
 
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cestusdei:
Sounds like the Mormon claim. They say “well Jesus Christ is in the name of our church so we are the Christian church”. We should do a commercial like they do for the Book of Mormon. Instead we can offer the Pillar of Truth booklet.
You know, lately when I’ve seen those mormon ads come on tv, I’ve wondered why there are no Catholic apostolates doing similar commercials. EWTN reaches a lot of people, but I think it is largely “preaching to the converted” (which is a very good thing…don’t get me wrong here).

Of course, wondering why something is not being done is almost always a self-indictment. 😦

But imagine…how controversial would such ads be in some parts of our country? :eek:
 
Cest

This issue relates to my very first post on CAF on undereducated catholics. Unless catholics educate themselves in the actual doctrines of the church they are very vulnerable to smart non-catholics who can trap them every time.

It amazes me how many catholics express their ignorance with great confidence. The main doctrines misunderstood by catholics are the immaculate conception and papal infallibility. Just look at some of the threads here on CAF where people post that the pope is infallible in all matters. Not only that but they will challenge anyone who points out their error.

I remember on BNet where I referred to the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians. Some woman asked me what bible I was reading (supposedly a catholic woman).
 
We are never going to have a perfect world in which everyone knows their own church doctrines from a young age. Furthermore, most Protestants also have very superficial knowledge about their religious beliefs and about the Bible.

The Catholic approach to evangelism (when there is any Catholic evangelism) is not aggressive and it does not target the weakest Protestants. Indeed, I am always amazed by the converts to Catholicism–how many studied and prayed long and hard before they converted. Catholic converts were usually strong in their Protestant faith, quite a few were even Protestant ministers. I have never heard any accusation of Catholics targeting a Protestant Christian or directly evangelizing Protestants. BUT Protestant evangelization is often directed specifically at Catholics and at the weakest, least knowledgeable Catholics. And evangelizing to Catholic youth (under the age of 18) is particularly unfair.

It is inconceivable to me that Catholics would be accused of the tactics that Protestants use to evangelize to Catholics. Can you picture Catholics putting their literature in Protestant churches, or Catholic youth ministers misrepresenting themselves as non-denominational and teaching Catholic doctrine to Protestant youth? I can’t and I am proud that Catholics do not stoop to such tactics. And I don’t think other “Christian” groups should either.
 
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