Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries

[seekerz]

It’s a homocide. Unless you can read the future.

And there is an eyewitness. He’s backing Zimmerman’s story.

Which version?

They could if they had a believable story and stuck to it. And the evidence coincided with that story (like it does in Zimmerman’s case).

Now who’s reading the future? Do you have access to all the evidence in the case?

 

[vz71]

I haven’t posted anything venomous on these Martin/Zimmerman threads that I know of. Perhaps, you can create a greatest hits for me.

Thank you, but no.
I can’t be bothered with it.

This appears to be a common theme throughout the story.

Sensational accusations, but we cannot be bothered with the truth.

 

[seekerz]

The part I bolded is actually the one thing that the prosecutor can’t do. The Stand Your Ground laws do remove the duty to retreat, so that’s not an issue that can or will come up.

This is the part that I find truly ridiculous and dismissive of the value of human life: how could any law allow a person who is on top in such a fight (I’m using this scenario simply for argument’s sake), and who has the benefit of a firearm, to not retreat?! It is basically legalizing vengenance IMHO, because a person who has other options to protect his life, particularly with the police on their way, is not morally justified in shooting someone.

 

[vz71]

“No capes!” - Edna Mode

 

[SwizzleStick]

See, I don’t think that this will be relevant or helpful to Zimmerman. Just because Martin looked suspicious, even if he had a blueprint of a house marked “House I Plan to Burglarize” in his hand, doesn’t give Zimmerman any right to shoot him. …

Agreed. But, if Zimmerman’s version of events is true, Zimmerman had a right to defend his life, even if he made less than wise choices up to that point, didn’t he? Ideally, he would have stayed in his truck and just observed and reported. Woulda, coulda, shoulda doesn’t matter at this point, though. Martin is dead and other lives are changed forever. The whole situation is just awful.

…Whether or not the 911 call was reasonable is actually irrelevant.

I think that it is relevant to either support or discount Zimmerman’s version of events.

…The issue of the trial is all going to be about what happened once Zimmerman started following Martin, who started the confrontation, and who did it in a way that made the other fear for their life. …

Yes.

…Nothing else-not the reason Martin was in the neighborhood, not why he was suspended from school, not what kind of iced tea he had in his hand, not Zimmerman’s prior history, none of that necessarily matters.

True. All of that just aids in trying to understand how the whole terrible situation came about.

 

[vz71]

It still staggers me that anyone who is walking in an unfamiliar
neighborhood, looking around in the rain, would be thought to be "suspicious-looking.

To me, Trayvon’s action seems to be the norm and predictable.
Suspicious? Maybe to the suspicious.

Context.

I understand that he was a stranger in a neighborhood that apparently had been hit with a series of burgleries recently.

I submit that it did not matter what he was wearing or what color he was, he would be under suspicion just for being a stranger there.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Zimmerman had no duties!

He was a self-appointed neighborhood watchman. And again, that isn’t really going to be relevant in this case-exactly how or if Martin looked suspicious is going to be irrelevant.

I thought neighborhood watches were informal things with volunteers just deciding to be watchmen.

As far as Martin looking or not looking suspicious, I suppose you are correct. Actual actions and outcomes matter most.

 

[vz71]

Not to mention the facts:
he was told ‘do NOT follow’

Source?

 

[seekerz]

Context.

I understand that he was a stranger in a neighborhood that apparently had been hit with a series of burgleries recently.

I submit that it did not matter what he was wearing or what color he was, he would be under suspicion just for being a stranger there.

Funny…“I was a stranger and you welcomed me”…is what comes to mind. This is not to suggest that all strangers are well-intentioned but it does make one question the way we interact with people.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Context.

I understand that he was a stranger in a neighborhood that apparently had been hit with a series of burgleries recently.

I submit that it did not matter what he was wearing or what color he was, he would be under suspicion just for being a stranger there.

Agreed. I was particularly suspicious of any white male that I saw and did not know after the home invasion in our neighborhood because the suspects were both white males, but I was also wary if I saw anyone in the neighborhood that I did not know.

 

[seekerz]

I thought neighborhood watches were informal things with volunteers just deciding to be watchmen.

As far as Martin looking or not looking suspicious, I suppose you are correct. Actual actions and outcomes matter most.

Neighborhood Watches, at least formal ones, do have rules and procedures. Ordinary citizens are not bound to them, but one cannot claim to be acting as both I think.

 

[vz71]

Thank you for correcting my spelling. It’s always important to have someone around who majors in the minors.

I have learned that when someone begins correcting spelling in a debate, they are realizing their own argument is losing ground.

I know. I have intentionally put misspelled words in my posts on occasion just to gauge the opposition.

 

[vz71]

Only for a second degree conviction. They do not have to prove that this was not self-defense and they do not have to defend that it was not self-defense do the level of “beyond reasonable doubt”. That is not how the self-defense plea works.

I thought the charge was second degree murder.
Has this changed?

 

[SwizzleStick]

Neighborhood Watches, at least formal ones, do have rules and procedures. Ordinary citizens are not bound to them, but one cannot claim to be acting as both I think.

Okay, I understand, I think. Thank you. Guess I’ve just thought of neighbors taking on the responsibility of looking out for each other and property on a schedule, but haven’t really been thinking about a formal Neighborhood Watch that includes the signs and maybe meetings and such. Guess I am just ignorant on the topic.

 

[catharina]

Context.

I understand that he was a stranger in a neighborhood that apparently had been hit with a series of burgleries recently.

I submit that it did not matter what he was wearing or what color he was, he would be under suspicion just for being a stranger there.

Clearly, he was viewed as suspicious to Zimmerman.

 

[maryjk]

We could also choose to believe his story, but that wouldn’t make it true either. Who better to ask or listen to than the man who stands to lose everything if he is found guilty of murder - really?

Okay, I understand you don’t believe Zimmerman.

But if you don’t want to listen to what he says, who would you listen to? Who would know what Zimmerman was thinking?

You say you have teen boys, or at least one. If you find something broken in your home, do you just punish him? Or do you ask him about it? If you ask him about it, and he tells you he did it, but offers an explanation, would you listen to the explanation? Or doesn’t it matter what he says since he already confessed to breaking the item?

I ask, because I want to hear what my son says. And what Zimmerman says. I want to know if the facts jive with his story. If my son says the dogs ran in, all wet, I want to know if it was raining. If Zimmerman says he was on the ground with Martin on top of him, I want to match that information up with the angle of the shot.

So, it seems to me, that I would want to know what Zimmerman says he was thinking. I also want to know what Martin’s girlfriend was thinking. I want to know why she waited a month before stepping forward. Has she spoken to the police yet? Or why the female witness claims she heard a little boy crying out for help. Did this witness really hear something, or was she trying to get her 15 minutes? What about the guy that claims he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, how long was he outside? Does he wear glasses, did he have them on? Does anyone else live at that house? Were they home?

So many questions. But it all starts with, what was Zimmerman thinking.

 

[catharina]

Source?

Duly noted in these almost 4000 posts - many times.

 

[vz71]

Funny…“I was a stranger and you welcomed me”…is what comes to mind. This is not to suggest that all strangers are well-intentioned but it does make one question the way we interact with people.

We can welcome a stranger while keeping a close eye on them.

 

[catharina]

I have learned that when someone begins correcting spelling in a debate, they are realizing their own argument is losing ground.

I know. I have intentionally put misspelled words in my posts on occasion just to gauge the opposition.

How very interesting.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It’s publicity. It keeps the donations rolling in.

They get paid for appearances on media outlets too.