Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[bbarrick8383]

That was your own presumption (suspicion).

My own son, now almost 40 yrs old, was confronted by two young men with guns.
My son is white, the men were black. In line with well-known advice from law
enforcement, my son tossed his keys in one direction, his suitcase in another
and he ran off in a third direction. This happened when my son was in his twenties.
No harm, no foul, no shooting.

As I said: you don’t know me at all.,

No, I can only give my opinion based on what you have said. Martin could very well be responsible for his own death. I never implied that he was suspicious, but his actions could very well be suspicious and I and anyone else had a right to initiate a conversation with someone we want. Maybe he thought Martin had a weapon instead of a candy bar or whatever.

I haven’t condemned anyone as others have. My only presumption was that you were on the same crowd who thinks Zimmerman should be prosecuted for a race based crime.

 

[Lujack]

I wear them too.

Its not the one article of clothing that can seem suspicious, but the place and the time. Maybe he thought Martin had a weapon in his hand? Hard dark was it? Would we be havin this same discussion if a white cop had shown up and instigated a conversation with Martin that ended up in Martins death?

Maybe, maybe not. If it was a policeman, I’d be willing to withhold judgment until more facts come out-they are trained to make those sorts of decisions and how to handle these sorts of confrontations in a way that makes it less likely for the confrontation to turn violent.

And if its a uniformed cop, it changes the complexion of the entire situation. Trayvon Martin may have felt uncomfortable being trailed by a uniformed policeman or a squad car, may even have been insulted or offended, but he wouldn’t have had to fear for his life.

And again, I can’t see anything suspicious about someone wearing a hoodie at night in the rain.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I used to be involved in law enforcement classes and wihle crime does not discriminate by race, the fact of the matter is the largest amounts of crime are done by young black men. It isn’t a racial thing, it’s a cultural thing. The whole rap/ghetto culture that gang life thrives on. The quick money, the drugs, the sex that all comes with the status of being in a gang (obviously I’m not referring to Mr. Martin, may he rest in peace). To save these young black men (and other races who fall into the same cultural traps) what society needs is to educate these people. Sadly more than that what they need are solid parental figures. And often is the case they come from a single parent home, which makes it hard on them to grow up in a healthy manner, especially if they are in a bad neighborhood on top of that. I pray Mr. Zimmerman will face justice because even if it ends up being that he defended himself, he still pursued Mr. Martin and thus instigated the confrontation. As far as I’m concerned that’s grounds for premeditation.

Premeditation of what? Stalking? If Zimmerman did nothing but say hi to the guy, doubt it and not saying he did, then Zimmermans not responsible for the reactions of Martin. If Zimmerman walked up an shoved the guy, then yeah they should probably be perusing a murder charge. At that point it doesn’t matter whose getting their butt kicked it only matters who shot who. There are two viable scenarios, Zimmermans guilty of shooting someone after starting a violent altercation or Martins guilty of attacking someone, who happened to be armed, after he made an innocent attempt to initiate a conversation with Martin to make sure his neighborhood didn’t have a thief or worse wandering around at late in the evening?

 

[catharina]

No, I can only give my opinion based on what you have said. Martin could very well be responsible for his own death. I never implied that he was suspicious, but his actions could very well be suspicious and I and anyone else had a right to initiate a conversation with someone we want. Maybe he thought Martin had a weapon instead of a candy bar or whatever.

I haven’t condemned anyone as others have. My only presumption was that you were on the same crowd who thinks Zimmerman should be prosecuted for a race based crime.

Round and round you go.

Trayvon was a law-abiding youth who had every right to be where he was.
How those facts can be twisted to justify his being CHASED and KILLED is beyond me.

It was Zimmerman who said that he found Trayvon to be suspicious.
That fact is at the heart of the story. It is undisputed unless you are disputing it now.
What Zimmerman “thought” led to the death of a child. So much for his “thoughts.”

 

[catharina]

Premeditation of what? Stalking? If Zimmerman did nothing but say hi to the guy, doubt it and not saying he did, then Zimmermans not responsible for the reactions of Martin. If Zimmerman walked up an shoved the guy, then yeah they should probably be perusing a murder charge. At that point it doesn’t matter whose getting their butt kicked it only matters who shot who. There are two viable scenarios, Zimmermans guilty of shooting someone after starting a violent altercation or Martins guilty of attacking someone, who happened to be armed, after he made an innocent attempt to initiate a conversation with Martin to make sure his neighborhood didn’t have a thief or worse wandering around at late in the evening?

Another great defense of a pseudo-cop. Too sad for words.

 

[catharina]

Maybe, maybe not. If it was a policeman, I’d be willing to withhold judgment until more facts come out-they are trained to make those sorts of decisions and how to handle these sorts of confrontations in a way that makes it less likely for the confrontation to turn violent.

And if its a uniformed cop, it changes the complexion of the entire situation. Trayvon Martin may have felt uncomfortable being trailed by a uniformed policeman or a squad car, may even have been insulted or offended, but he wouldn’t have had to fear for his life.
**So true. **

And again, I can’t see anything suspicious about someone wearing a hoodie at night in the rain.

I can’t see anything suspicious about someone wearing a hoodie - ever!

 

[Namwalker]

Namwalker;9104384:

…Martin is 17 or 18 and for all purposes is a man, but a child who like all children can make bad decisions. My problem with this incident revolves around who started this fight between the two. That is a matter of legal investigation.
…"

Trayvon was **17 yrs old **

• a child.
  Now he is a DEAD 17yr-old.

Zimmerman is 28 yrs old - an adult.

A 17 year old child is capable of killing as is anyone in this society. There was a 30+ St Petersburg, FL police man shot and killed by a 15 year old “child” or “baby” if you prefer. Age is not a prohibitive factor in the decision such as this.

I’ve asked people what they were doing on my property and had them respond in a provacative and threatening manner. Since I was on my property I had both the castle doctrine and stand your ground law basically on my side. If this was taken further I know that people from all over would be second guessing my actions. But I didn’t back down.

Until parents teach their children the lesson that their dress and mannerisms reflect upon the way that people will see them this tragedy will not be the last. Being a parent is not just being a friend. There is a whole lot more to it. Some parent succeed and some do not.

We seem to forget that we no longer have beat cops but drive by police presence at 40MPH. When help is needed it could be a half hour away and in the meantime a tragedy could happen. There has been talk that the both the castle and stand your grounds laws cater to a vigilante mentality. I prefer to look at as a stop gap interventional way to protect my home and family until police arrive. At which time questions will have to answered.

I don’t know the answers and neither do a lot of our leaders. Everyone has opinions some are better than others, and are formed by experience. Does the stand your ground law need to be looked at again - quite possibly. But in a cold dispassionate way.

In a court of law many times the only true and dispassionate witness is physical evidence and how that is interperted. Eye witnesses can be proven unreliable.

The only thing that we can knowledgedly say is that a tragedy happened. Most of the time the fact that a person is armed is not known until way to late and after the fact. Carrying a gun is not illegal in some states provided that rules are followed.

 

[Lujack]

catharina;9104700:

A 17 year old child is capable of killing as is anyone in this society. There was a 30+ St Petersburg, FL police man shot and killed by a 15 year old “child” or “baby” if you prefer. Age is not a prohibitive factor in the decision such as this.

I’ve asked people what they were doing on my property and had them respond in a provacative and threatening manner. Since I was on my property I had both the castle doctrine and stand your ground law basically on my side. If this was taken further I know that people from all over would be second guessing my actions. But I didn’t back down.

But Trayvon Martin was not on Zimmerman’s property. He was walking down a sidewalk to his girlfriend’s fathers house. Zimmerman does not own the street, and Martin owed him no deference.

Until parents teach their children the lesson that their dress and mannerisms reflect upon the way that people will see them this tragedy will not be the last. Being a parent is not just being a friend. There is a whole lot more to it. Some parent succeed and some do not.

What, precisely, did Trayvon Martin do wrong?

And I think its pretty bold to imply that Trayvon’s parents failed. Especially since he didn’t shoot anyone.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What, precisely, did Trayvon Martin do wrong?

He beat Zimmerman to the ground, according to the witness.

 

[catharina]

A 17 year old child is capable of killing as is anyone in this society. Very true - and if that happens that 17 yr-old child can be (and usually is) tried as an adult. As the facts stand now, a 17yr-old child was killed by a grown man. Those are the facts. There was a 30+ St Petersburg, FL police man shot and killed by a 15 year old “child” or “baby” if you prefer. Age is not a prohibitive factor in the decision such as this.

I’ve asked people what they were doing on my property and had them respond in a provacative and threatening manner. Since I was on my property I had both the castle doctrine and stand your ground law basically on my side. If this was taken further I know that people from all over would be second guessing my actions. But I didn’t back down.

Until parents teach their children the lesson that their dress and mannerisms reflect upon the way that people will see them this tragedy will not be the last. Being a parent is not just being a friend. There is a whole lot more to it. Some parent succeed and some do not.

We seem to forget that we no longer have beat cops but drive by police presence at 40MPH. When help is needed it could be a half hour away and in the meantime a tragedy could happen. There has been talk that the both the castle and stand your grounds laws cater to a vigilante mentality. I prefer to look at as a stop gap interventional way to protect my home and family until police arrive. At which time questions will have to answered.

I don’t know the answers and neither do a lot of our leaders. Everyone has opinions some are better than others, and are formed by experience. Does the stand your ground law need to be looked at again - quite possibly. But in a cold dispassionate way.

In a court of law many times the only true and dispassionate witness is physical evidence and how that is interperted. Eye witnesses can be proven unreliable.

The only thing that we can knowledgedly say is that a tragedy happened. Most of the time the fact that a person is armed is not known until way to late and after the fact. Carrying a gun is not illegal in some states provided that rules are followed.

 

[Namwalker]

For those given to suspicion … sure.

Have you never heard of gang colors? Red Blue Bloods Crips

In many of our cities this is prevalent. You don’t have to be paranoid to suspect danger.

Hoodies are non-threatening but they are also use to conceal identity. If you act like a gangster you will be treated like one. It’s your choice.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I’ve been sitting on the sidelines waiting to learn why the police had released Zimmerman. Now it seems we are finding out: there was a witness who backed up Zimmerman’s story.

myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Unfortunately cops and witnesses are automatically suspect in these kinds of cases.

 

[catharina]

Have you never heard of gang colors? Red Blue Bloods Crips

In many of our cities this is prevalent. You don’t have to be paranoid to suspect danger.

Hoodies are non-threatening but they are also use to conceal identity. If you act like a gangster you will be treated like one. It’s your choice.

Of course - who hasn’t?
Yet signifying “colors” apply in very few neighborhoods.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Unfortunately cops and witnesses are automatically suspect in these kinds of cases.

Sadly, this is too often true. It seems that by witholding the exculpatory evidence, the cops allowed a certain script to become set in concrete in the public mind. This is going to get ugly.

 

[catharina]

Namwalker;9105162:

But Trayvon Martin was not on Zimmerman’s property. He was walking down a sidewalk to his girlfriend’s fathers house. Zimmerman does not own the street, and Martin owed him no deference.

What, precisely, did Trayvon Martin do wrong?

And I think its pretty bold to imply that Trayvon’s parents failed. Especially since he didn’t shoot anyone.

Dude, so sorry but that was not my post.
It ws mis-labelled and it belonged to someone named Namwalker - not to me.
I’ve corrected the error.

 

[catharina]

Sadly, this is too often true. It seems that by witholding the exculpatory evidence, the cops allowed a certain script to become set in concrete in the public mind. This is going to get ugly.

That would be UGLIER.

 

[Namwalker]

And I think its pretty bold to imply that Trayvon’s parents failed. Especially since he didn’t shoot anyone.

What I said is that it is the parent’s responsibility to teach their children and that some parents succeed and some fail. Nowhere did I either say or make the implication that Trayvon’s parents failed. That was your bold leap to judgement.

I was reflecting upon what a parents responsibility towards their children should be.

 

[Havard]

Can’t we all just agree that we hope that all aspects of the case are thoroughly investigated, and that we all hope for a just conclusion?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Maybe, maybe not. If it was a policeman, I’d be willing to withhold judgment until more facts come out-they are trained to make those sorts of decisions and how to handle these sorts of confrontations in a way that makes it less likely for the confrontation to turn violent.

And if its a uniformed cop, it changes the complexion of the entire situation. Trayvon Martin may have felt uncomfortable being trailed by a uniformed policeman or a squad car, may even have been insulted or offended, but he wouldn’t have had to fear for his life.

And again, I can’t see anything suspicious about someone wearing a hoodie at night in the rain.

I’d there any evidence that Martin even knew he was being followed or feared for his life?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Can’t we all just agree that we hope that all aspects of the case are thoroughly investigated, and that we all hope for a just conclusion?

Sort of like “there is only One China and Taiwan is an inalienable part of it”.