Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Scott_Lafrance]

The only thing I can’t figure out with the Trayvon Martin issue is why his shooter has not been arrested yet. I mean, it seems to me that clearly the guy who shot him was in the wrong and that he violated the law. It seems to me to be a clear cut case of murder.

So, why do you supposed that Zimmerman has not been arrested in over a month?

 

[pnewton]

Lets also not forget that in the criminal system fails, then the family will still have the option of pursuing a civil lawsuit for wrongful death.

That suit has already been filed. Also, the family has filed for the copyrights of the slogans “Justice for Trayvon” and “I am Trayvon”, coming soon, to a hoodie near you.

 

[pnewton]

Exactly its called “Probable cause” due process. And we can proceed from this point. The rest does little else but fuel the fire.

Personally, I believe there is probable cause based soley on Zimmerman’s statements, both on the tape and to the police. I think in any other state, the arrest would have occurred, as self-defense when a killing occurs in public is a* defense*, it does not negate the charge. If something is listed as a defense, then the charge is filed. This always happens when police are called to a scene. Grand Juries here are used for when police hear about a crime at a subsequent time, or for undercover operations that occur over time.

 

[pnewton]

So, why do you supposed that Zimmerman has not been arrested in over a month?

I have answered this several times. Turning it over to the Grand Jury is a way for the local police department to avoid, either way, the responsibility of making a decision. To look at it another way, if there is no evidence of a crime, then what did they send, and why did they send, anything at all to the Grand Jury?

 

[Geist]

That is not defence and even if Martin was trying to be physical with him, killing him with a gun is excessive force and worthy of prosecution

You seem to have your truth blinders on pretty tight, but here goes anyway.

Having someone pin you down? It renders someone unable to retreat.

Even in states with very strict anti self defense laws(aka “duty to retreat”) the use of the gun would have been fully justified at that point.

 

[CatholicGOPer]

Police incident report fills in details on Trayvon Martin shooting

dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/police-incident-report-fills-in-details-on-trayvon-martin-shooting/

A three-page police report contains new details about the shooting death of Sanford, Fla. teenager Trayvon Martin.

It discloses that George Zimmerman, who shot Martin on Feb. 26, was in custody on the scene and told police that he had tried, in vain, to find someone to help him with his own injuries.

The report, filed by Sanford police officer Ricardo Ayala and published online Tuesday by the Chicago Tribune, indicates that there were at least six witnesses — three men and three women — who saw or heard some part of the events that led to Martin’s death. They ranged in age from 19 to 56, and included five people described as “white.” The race of the sixth witness was listed as “O,” meaning “other.”

The report notes that Martin was six feet tall when he died, compared with the 5-foot, 9-inch tall Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watchman who killed him after what he told police was a physical altercation that Martin started. (RELATED: TheDC’s complete coverage of Trayvon Martin)

Martin’s weight was recorded as 160 pounds. The report does not list Zimmerman’s weight.

It also describes Zimmerman as “in custody” when Officer Ayala arrived on the scene. “Upon arrival Ofc. T. Smith had a white male, later identified as George Zimmerman, in custody,” Ayala wrote.

Officer Timothy Smith, in his written report, notes that “Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs.”

“Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid. … I overheard him state ‘I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.’ … Once Zimmerman was cleared by the [Sanford Fire Department], he was transported to the Sanford Police Department.”

“Zimmerman was placed in an interview room at [Sanford Police Department], where he was interviewed by Investigator D. Singleton.”

The report also notes that officers on the scene administered CPR to Martin, but that fire department rescuers later confirmed his death.

Officer Ayala described Zimmerman’s alleged crime as a violation of Florida statute 782.11, titled “Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.”

“Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree,” the law reads.

See story and copy of report here: dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/police-incident-report-fills-in-details-on-trayvon-martin-shooting/

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Personally, I believe there is probable cause based soley on Zimmerman’s statements, both on the tape and to the police. I think in any other state, the arrest would have occurred, as self-defense when a killing occurs in public is a* defense*, it does not negate the charge. If something is listed as a defense, then the charge is filed. This always happens when police are called to a scene. Grand Juries here are used for when police hear about a crime at a subsequent time, or for undercover operations that occur over time.

For an arrest to occur, probable cause of a crime has to be present. Probable cause is a prudential determination by the police (often in consultation with the state’s attorney) at the time of the incident, not anonymous posters on the internet.

Self-defense is not a crime. In Florida, there is no “duty to retreat”, and the legal standard is “reasonable fear of one’s life”.

If a 6’3" athlete is pounding my head on the ground, I would consider that “reasonable fear of my life”. Everything surrounding this moment is irrelevant. At that moment, George Zimmerman had a reasonable fear that his life was in danger and he had a right to defend his life.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I have answered this several times. Turning it over to the Grand Jury is a way for the local police department to avoid, either way, the responsibility of making a decision. To look at it another way, if there is no evidence of a crime, then what did they send, and why did they send, anything at all to the Grand Jury?

I have no idea what was submitted to the grand jury, but it will be they that decide if whatever was submitted met the level of burden to indict Zimmerman for a crime. If a grand jury finds that there is enough evidence to indict, I am sure that Zimmerman will turn himself in. There is no proof that Zimmerman is attempting to avoid justice. At the time of the shooting, Zimmerman didn’t run away, he didn’t go into hiding. He waited by Martin’s body, offered his weapon to the police, and explained his story (which has been corroborated by witness accounts). So far, Zimmerman’s explanation of things has stood up to scrutiny. However, as time has passed, more information has come out that Trayvon Martin’s story as a sweet, innocent youth just visiting his daddy may not be adding up.

 

[pnewton]

For an arrest to occur, probable cause of a crime has to be present. Probable cause is a prudential determination by the police

Whether there is probable cause is a prudential determination by the police. However, they are not they only ones that can exercise such an opinion. A Grand Jury can do so also. A defense attorney can also attempt to persuade a jury that probable cause did not exist at time of arrest, allowing 12 civilians to also have an opinion on the matter. I will bet that the Justice Department that jumped in on this local matter will also have an opinion on this matter. I too have my opinion, as a semi-anonymous poster.

Self-defense is not a crime.

No one should be charged with self-defense. True.

In Florida, there is no “duty to retreat”,

This may prove one of the most interesting parts of this whole mess, for Trayvon Martin also had no duty to retreat if confronted by an armed gunman. It may well be that there is not guilt on either party, as both, from their point of view, may have operated from a belief in self-defense. If this is what a civil jury finds, I would thing that Zimmerman will be nailed for being the first aggressor, not the first blow, but the first to present himself as a threat.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Well, Thank God… you sitting behind a computer listening to you tube have solved the whole thing.

Stop the presses! We no longer need professional investigators! You have done what police just couldnt figure out.

Why do we need due process…when all it takes is an armchair detective, biased new reports and you tube.

Sleep well , America!

Fortunately for America he is from Canada so he will never get the opportunity to mail in his guilty verdict to the courts after cruising the Internet for a few minutes!

 

[pnewton]

If a grand jury finds that there is enough evidence to indict, I am sure that Zimmerman will turn himself in.

I think so too. I do not doubt that he will be able to post bail and roll in and out of the system until the trial. I said earlier I think there will be a trial. I think the Grand Jury is a toss up, as you point out, they are the ones that will see all the facts. They may accept Zimmerman’s story, or they may not.

The reason I am so sure this will go to trial is that if the Grand Jury does not indict, I would bet that the Justice Department will. I think no FBI agent involved in this case will have a career left it they do not find they are expected to find. I have had one serious run-in with the politics of the FBI. I will PM you the case, if you are interested.

 

[pnewton]

There is already a thread on this. It includes a link to this report.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=659279

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, all,

I left off yesterday evening at 28 pages and here it is the next morning on page 39 already.

This thread is going too fast for me.

So, all those involved are in my prayers and I’m leaving this thread. My further opinions I keep to myself.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

 

[57classic]

I have never heard if Mr. Zimmerman had his gun drawn where Mr. Matin could see it during the verbal altercation. Would Mr. Martin have attacked him even from behind had he known Mr. Zimmerman had a gun?

The logic or lack of logic would shed some light on the intentions and attitudes present at the time.

 

[catharina]

At least you’re willing to admit that Trayvon may have started a physical altercation with him. Unfortunately, the law obviously disagrees with you.** IF and only if the police find enough **to make an arrest, will this be prosecuted.

Ah, no.
Actually Grand Jury findings could send a case to the prosecutor.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Whether there is probable cause is a prudential determination by the police. However, they are not they only ones that can exercise such an opinion. A Grand Jury can do so also. A defense attorney can also attempt to persuade a jury that probable cause did not exist at time of arrest, allowing 12 civilians to also have an opinion on the matter. I will bet that the Justice Department that jumped in on this local matter will also have an opinion on this matter. I too have my opinion, as a semi-anonymous poster.

No one should be charged with self-defense. True.
This may prove one of the most interesting parts of this whole mess, for Trayvon Martin also had no duty to retreat if confronted by an armed gunman. It may well be that there is not guilt on either party, as both, from their point of view, may have operated from a belief in self-defense. If this is what a civil jury finds, I would thing that Zimmerman will be nailed for being the first aggressor, not the first blow, but the first to present himself as a threat.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin. According to what information is available, Zimmerman was following Martin. When he lost track of him, he went back to his SUV, where Martin confronted Zimmerman. It is at this point where Martin stopped being a victim and became the assailant, and vice versa. It is at this point where Zimmerman did not have a duty to retreat.

 

[catharina]

Actually, see, it is hard to get. A man that just was assaulted, injured, denied medical treatment,** first aid in back of cop car, then Z refused medical treatment **and had to take someones life in self defense really shouldn’t be handcuffed, stuck in a cell (with more criminals), put before a judge, get a lawyer, spend thousands of dollars, etc.

Its not right.

**Uh, at least eight did actually. Profiling works. Should he have been keeping an eye on an old Jewish man instead? Those old retired Florida jews man…they’ll strip a house in seconds!

“Avi, help me grab this flatscreen”

“I don’t know Mordecai, my discs are acting up, give me my ointment”**

Mockery of a religious minority group? Here and now?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I think so too. I do not doubt that he will be able to post bail and roll in and out of the system until the trial. I said earlier I think there will be a trial. I think the Grand Jury is a toss up, as you point out, they are the ones that will see all the facts. They may accept Zimmerman’s story, or they may not.

The reason I am so sure this will go to trial is that if the Grand Jury does not indict, I would bet that the Justice Department will. I think no FBI agent involved in this case will have a career left it they do not find they are expected to find. I have had one serious run-in with the politics of the FBI. I will PM you the case, if you are interested.

My neighbor is a supervisory special agent in the FBI. While politics is important within the administrative levels of the agency, field agents are expected to do their jobs within the constraint of the law. I want justice in this case, real justice. If the legal system, including the federal aspect of it, determines that there is nothing to prosecute Zimmerman on, I think it will be an INjustice if the federal bureaucracy create something just to satisfy the public’s thirst for blood.

 

[SamH]

I think it will be an INjustice if the federal bureaucracy create something just to satisfy the public’s thirst for blood.

With Eric Holder in charge you can count on it. Look what just happened to his “signature” case in Michigan. The prosecutors presented their case and the judge dropped most of the charges before the defense even started. Basically she could find no laws broken by 5 of the defendants that have been held without bail for nearly two years.

 

[Geist]

With Eric Holder in charge you can count on it. Look what just happened to his “signature” case in Michigan.

This has the hallmarks of another Duke case thanks to the racist DOJ and usual rabble rousers looking for handouts (Al and Jesse).

I really feel for Zimmerman being the victim of a conspiracy of this magnitude.