Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[catharina]

Because he was part of a neighborhood watch in a neighborhood that had been experiencing a rash of break-ins. He was protecting his property and that of his neighbors.

Yet the guiding principle for Neighborhood Watch is: do NOT follow.

Sanford did things acc to Sanford, not
acc to Neighborhood Watch.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is solo block watch a common concept in Fla? I’ve never seen that here. Ive seen people block watch travel armed, not as a rule, but always in couples also. Which I would think is good logic. Case one needs a witness. Always a good idea to have a witness around.

However, I don’t pay a great deal of attention to block watch either. Perhaps thats why he was told by 911 to stop, what was the word 911 used, follow or pursue? Lets not get those two words confused.

 

[mary_bobo]

In that place and in that time,
(his father’s neighborhood and returning from a store),
Zimmerman’s perceptions of the boy were off the mark.
Who stalks anyone, a stranger, while packing a deadly weapon?
Zimmerman did.

You apparently don’t understand CC laws. You are indicating that he followed the teen because he had a gun. Incorrect assumption. He probably always carried his gun. I don’t know what happened and neither does anyone else on this forum. According to press reports (if you can believe the press), there had been breakins in that neighborhood and the neighbor had formed a watch group. Many neighborhoods do this. The teen was in a neighborhood he did not belong in, wearing a hoodie. Hoodie’s in themselves are not bad, but under the circumstances, it could have led to the tragic situation that happened. Either way, let’s pray for both the victim and his family.

 

[Havard]

Is solo block watch a common concept in Fla? I’ve never seen that here. Ive seen people block watch travel armed, not as a rule, but always in couples also. Which I would think is good logic. Case one needs a witness. Always a good idea to have a witness around.

However, I don’t pay a great deal of attention to block watch either. Perhaps thats why he was told by 911 to stop, what was the word 911 used, follow or pursue? Let not get those two words confused.

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

 

[catharina]

You apparently don’t understand CC laws. You are indicating that he followed the teen because he had a gun. Incorrect assumption.

I have never made such a claim - nor would I.

He probably always carried his gun. I don’t know what happened and neither does anyone else on this forum. According to press reports (if you can believe the press), there had been breakins in that neighborhood and the neighbor had formed a watch group. Many neighborhoods do this. The teen was in a neighborhood he did not belong in, wearing a hoodie. The teen was in the neighborhood with his FATHER.

Hoodie’s in themselves are not bad, but under the circumstances, it could have led to the tragic situation that happened. Either way, let’s pray for both the victim and his family.
As I’ve said a number of times in both of these threads:
let’s pray for Trayvon, Zimmerman and for both of their families.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Not really because the question that begs to be asked is would he have followed the boy alone without a firearm?

Does watch mean follow, or does follow occur because one has a concealed weapon and feels he is empowered? Would he have followed him alone without the weapon?

Sounds like the motivating factor became the weapon? Now did he have any experience with apprehending suspects, was their probable cause to begin with. A hoodie with hands in the pocket does not create probable cause.

Perhaps a good reason to wait to for the police. also a great motivating factor to create a uneeded situation. Point being the 17-yo wouldn’t have attacked someone not following him, and their was no probable cause to follow him.

Break ins in the neighborhood don’t give the Police the right to pull over whoever for no reason. You need “real” probable cause. Now, you could make some up, but you see Mr Z didn’t do that.

 

[scipio337]

If you follow a stranger whom you view as “susopicious”
and you KNOW you’re carrying a loaded weapon

• then why follow the stranger???

What does carrying a weapon have to do with following someone you think is “suspicious”??

He was within state law, carrying a concealed weapon with a license issued by the state.

 

[maryjk]

Break ins in the neighborhood don’t give the Police the right to pull over whoever for no reason. You need “real” probable cause. Now, you could make some up, but you see Mr Z didn’t do that.

The police need “real” probable cause.

There is nothing stopping a person from making decisions based their own definition of probable cause.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Safety IMHO.

Oh the firearm relates to the sequence of events. You see the man turned his back in the confrontation. Who does that? What self defense technique is that called?

 

[Dawnia]

Now did he have any experience with apprehending suspects, was their probable cause to begin with. A hoodie with hands in the pocket does not create probable cause.

Perhaps a good reason to wait to for the police. also a great motivating factor to create a uneeded situation. Point being the 17-yo wouldn’t have attacked someone not following him, and their was no probable cause to follow him.

Break ins in the neighborhood don’t give the Police the right to pull over whoever for no reason. You need “real” probabale cause. Now, you could make some up, but you see Mr Z didn’t do that.

Probable cause isn’t an issue in this situation since he was a private citizen and not the police. There is no crime in simply following someone. If there is, then there are A LOT of elementary school kids that are in big trouble.

 

[fix]

You apparently don’t understand CC laws. You are indicating that he followed the teen because he had a gun. Incorrect assumption. He probably always carried his gun. I don’t know what happened and neither does anyone else on this forum. According to press reports (if you can believe the press), there had been breakins in that neighborhood and the neighbor had formed a watch group. Many neighborhoods do this. The teen was in a neighborhood he did not belong in, wearing a hoodie. Hoodie’s in themselves are not bad, but under the circumstances, it could have led to the tragic situation that happened. Either way, let’s pray for both the victim and his family.

Does FLA law allow someone to attack another because they are being followed? Are they allowed to beat on someone until the person yells for help and fears for their life? Just wondering?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Probable cause isn’t an issue in this situation since he was a private citizen and not the police. There is no crime in simply following someone. If there is, then there are A LOT of elementary school kids that are in big trouble.

He was acting as an agent of the law, yes he needed probable cause. Thats how block watch/follow Captain and all that clamour became involved. He wasn’t observing, he played an “active” role in this chain of events.

 

[catharina]

Because he was part of a neighborhood watch in a neighborhood that had been experiencing a rash of break-ins. He was protecting his property and that of his neighbors.

Guiding principle of real Neighborhood Watch:
Do NOT follow.
Sanford ignored the sheriffs’ oversight group re Neighborhood Watch

 

[maryjk]

Does FLA law allow someone to attack another because they are being followed? Are they allowed to beat on someone until the person yells for help and fears for their life? Just wondering?

Yes, but only if the person doing the beating is a child.

Both sides seem to want to use the “Stand your ground” law. But it doesn’t apply to either case.

Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground. He was at least in the beginning, following Martin.

Martin also wasn’t standing his ground. He approached Zimmerman, then, if witnesses are to be believed, beat him.

Then of course Zimmerman, while being beaten, did employ self defense, but not the stand your ground law. And shot Martin.

 

[catharina]

What does carrying a weapon have to do with following someone you think is “suspicious”??

He was within state law, carrying a concealed weapon with a license issued by the state.

In doing so, with your suspicions leading you,
you can be creating a potentially VERY dangerous situation.

As George did -
although all of law enforcement advises against it!

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Does FLA law allow someone to attack another because they are being followed? Are they allowed to beat on someone until the person yells for help and fears for their life? Just wondering?”

Hard to tell what in the world they allow down there at this point now isn’t it?

 

[catharina]

Local News from yesterday. Interesting.

miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/v-fullstory/2718130/sanford-cops-wanted-to-charge.html

Trayvon Martin KILLING
Sanford cops wanted to charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case

Sanford cops asked prosecutors to file charges in the Trayvon Martin case, but the Seminole County State Attorney’s office held off.

By Frances Robles
frobles@MiamiHerald.com

"SANFORD – Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told The Miami Herald on Tuesday.

A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

The state attorney’s office held off pending further review, The Miami Herald has learned.
The Miami Gardens high school junior was killed Feb. 26 by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. The 28-year-old insurance underwriter and college student was never charged, triggering a nationwide crusade on the dead teen’s behalf.

… ."

 

[Havard]

Does FLA law allow someone to attack another because they are being followed? Are they allowed to beat on someone until the person yells for help and fears for their life? Just wondering?

776.013 (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Underline mine.

Reasonable belief is something decided by the jury, or a judge, if it’s a bench trial.

 

[fix]

Yes, but only if the person doing the beating is a child.

Both sides seem to want to use the “Stand your ground” law. But it doesn’t apply to either case.

I am no lawyer but I cannot see how it could possible apply in this case.

Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground. He was at least in the beginning, following Martin.

Martin also wasn’t standing his ground. He approached Zimmerman, then, if witnesses are to be believed, beat him.

If true then basically one person follows someone with a good intention and does no harm, the other person attacks without good reason.

Then of course Zimmerman, while being beaten, did employ self defense, but not the stand your ground law. And shot Martin.

6’3" on top of 5’9" and 5’9" screaming for help while being beaten. If there is more to this case then I hope it comes out. If not then all this talk about arrest is more than misplaced.

 

[fix]

776.013 (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Underline mine.

Reasonable belief is something decided by the jury, or a judge, if it’s a bench trial.

OK, how does this apply in this case? MZ was on the bottom being beaten. TM was never attacked.