Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[ringil]

Owning a hoodie and not using the hood. . . . What?

 

[sw85]

I suppose if you want to chit-chat on tweeter and face-book and you place yourself in that situation. You have no one to blame but yourself.

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.

The point is that Martin apparently bragged about being involved in violence and others attributed violence to him, as well. This means, at the very least (if he didn’t actually get involved in any violence), that he valued having a reputation as a violent person. At the worst, it means he actually was a violent person. In either case we see a possible motivation for his attacking Zimmerman, an older fatter man he thought was probably harmless to him, a good opportunity to embellish his reputation as a violent person.

Zimmerman, by contrast, had a good reason not to get involved in any fight: he had recently called the police and knew they were on the way; and he also had a gun, which he knew could potentially be used against him in the event of a physical scuffle.

 

[seekerz]

Yeah, he gave a desription routine to what cops do everyday. Patrol to base- “Black male with hoodie”. Some profiling.

Thanks for making my point for me.

Don’t know where you live, but in my neighborhood, “(insert race) male with a hoodie” is not enough to get the police out to our street, though it might earn me a trip to the ER for a cranium check…

 

[Bezant]

Chuck Rudd at GPL (who is highly suspicious of the media narrative but remaining largely neutral) reports in a few different places:

glpiggy.net/2012/03/27/why-look-into-trayvon-martins-past/

glpiggy.net/2012/03/27/its-not-the-hoodies-its-no-snitch/

glpiggy.net/2012/03/26/this-cracka-gotta-get-whats-comin-to-em/

glpiggy.net/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-the-fighter/ (which in turn cites wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer).

He cites Martin’s Twitter account and some entries on his Facebook. The former at least appears to have been deleted recently, but he did pull a few screenshots.

Twitter and Facebook accounts, apparently Martin’s, which are not viewable to the public right now.

Do you have anything actually official saying that Trayvon was involved in petty crime or that he was involved in some violence?

 

[Havard]

Did Trayvon fit the profile of a particular miscreant? Did he see Trayvon doing something wrong? Might someone looking around at houses, not simply be disoriented? Why didn’t Zimmerman ask, “Are you lost, can I help you?” No, he immediately assumed the child was up to no good. Don’t drink the Geraldo Kool-Aid: it was not the hoodie…unless Zimmerman doesn’t wear them himself…?

There was no basis other than color, and more than one Zimmerman defender has indicated as much by referring to burglaries allegedly perpetrated in the area by young black males.

You’re saying it must be racial because you can’t think of anything else? That’s not exactly compelling.

 

[sw85]

Thanks for making my point for me.

Don’t know where you live, but in my neighborhood, “(insert race) male with a hoodie” is not enough to get the police out to our street, though it might earn me a trip to the ER for a cranium check…

OK, but “I saw a black guy in a hoodie” isn’t just what Zimmerman said. My understanding is that he also said he saw someone walking around behind people’s houses, looking around, and there’s been a rash of burglaries in the area recently.

“Someone acting suspiciously in a manner consistent with recent criminal activity” is sufficient to motivate a police response, I’d think. Giving them a description of the person (black male wearing a hoodie) would help them locate that person when they arrive.

 

[seekerz]

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.

-]The point is that Martin apparently bragged about being involved in violence and others attributed violence to him, as well. This means, at the very least (if he didn’t actually get involved in any violence), that he valued having a reputation as a violent person. At the worst, it means he actually was a violent person. In either case we see a possible motivation for his attacking Zimmerman, an older fatter man he thought was probably harmless to him, a good opportunity to embellish his reputation as a violent person./-]

Zimmerman, by contrast, had a good reason not to get involved in any fight: he had recently called the police and knew they were on the way; and he also had a gun, which he knew could potentially be used against him in the event of a physical scuffle.

For heaven’s sake, the child is dead. Show him the respect of not dragging his reputation to join his coffin on the strength of allegations!

Seriously, I have to remind myself of which board I’m on sometimes…

 

[Sarabande]

The primary outrage in this case is over problems with the police investigation; my question is why then, should there be the same outrage in cases where perhaps the police pursued investigations to the best of their limited capacity?

I personally believe there should be public national outrage of any kind of violent crime, especially that which ends in a killing/murder no matter what is involved.

Just in my opinion from how the media is presenting it and those leading the public outcry (minus Martin’s family), but I believe the outcry is more focused on the racial problems rather than the actual tragedy. That’s my problem with it. I realise that I am probably just idealistic, but all tragic and horrific crimes deserves national public outcry because of the tragedy itself. I wonder if there would have been this much coverage and national public outrage otherwise? I just think people, myself included, tend to be too lackadaisical and unempathetic when it comes to violent crime, especially in poor, dangerous neighborhoods. If it doesn’t happen in our back yard, it doesn’t affect us. That’s very sad and a disappointing aspect of human nature.

I also just had a thought… I know that FL has a lot of gated communities based on where my in-laws live down there who lives in a multi-racial gated community. So the national public outcry could also be fed by the fact that this happened in similar “back yards” all over the country. It’s not just a poor, neighborhood where suburbanites can just say, “Well, it’s sad, but that’s what happens in those areas. I don’t need to worry about it.”

 

[sw85]

Twitter and Facebook accounts, presumably Martin’s, which are not viewable to the public right now.

Do you have anything actually official saying that Trayvon was involved in petty crime or that he was involved in some violence?

Of course not. We know very little about either man. We are all speculating.

 

[seekerz]

You’re saying it must be racial because you can’t think of anything else? That’s not exactly compelling.

No, because I don’t hear anything else on those tapes…yet the police came all the same. In my town, they’d have had my head examined or fined me.

 

[maryjk]

Unless I’m greatly mistaken, one reason hoodies exist is to ward off rain/cold. Being a particularly rambunctious critter, my son has never been given an umbrella on a damp day - only a hoodie, just in case he needs to cover his head.

Maybe I am using the word wrong. Isn’t a hoodie essentially a sweatshirt with a hood attached? How does that protect someone in the rain? Not a big deal, it really doesn’t matter.

Your claim is that a private citizen used race to decide if someone was suspicious.

The problem is, when he reported the crime, he gave the information about Martin, including race only when asked.

 

[johnnyjones]

Thanks for making my point for me.

Don’t know where you live, but in my neighborhood, “(insert race) male with a hoodie” is not enough to get the police out to our street, though it might earn me a trip to the ER for a cranium check…

You read it wrong. Probably with bias thinking. Thats a cop calling in a description. Descriptions aren’t profiling. 17 years law enforcement, don’t insult me.

 

[sw85]

For heaven’s sake, the child is dead. Show him the respect of not dragging his reputation to join his coffin on the strength of allegations!

Seriously, I have to remind myself of which board I’m on sometimes…

All of this stuff is going to be brought up if it comes to a court trial, so it’s hardly as if it’s irrelevant or speculating on it is out of court. Character matters, and character analyses come up in courts all the time. “Is this action consistent with what we know to be true about this person’s behavior” is a reasonable question to ask when one person isn’t around to answer the question himself. (Besides, heavily qualified speculations hardly amount to an attack on someone’s reputation).

And he’s not a child by anything but legal standards. He’s a grown man. Zimmerman is a grown man too, and people are hounding for his blood.

Trying to get at the truth isn’t a bad thing.

 

[seekerz]

OK, but “I saw a black guy in a hoodie” isn’t just what Zimmerman said. My understanding is that he also said he saw someone walking around behind people’s houses, looking around, and there’s been a rash of burglaries in the area recently.

“Someone acting suspiciously in a manner consistent with recent criminal activity” is sufficient to motivate a police response, I’d think. Giving them a description of the person (black male wearing a hoodie) would help them locate that person when they arrive.

Are you asserting that Martin had as much basis to call the police as Zimmerman did: someone walking around behind people’s houses around a time there had been burglaries…?

 

[seekerz]

All of this stuff is going to be brought up if it comes to a court trial, so it’s hardly as if it’s irrelevant or speculating on it is out of court. Character matters, and character analyses come up in courts all the time. “Is this action consistent with what we know to be true about this person’s behavior” is a reasonable question to ask when one person isn’t around to answer the question himself.

And he’s not a child by anything but legal standards. He’s a grown man. Zimmerman is a grown man too, and people are hounding for his blood.

Trying to get at the truth isn’t a bad thing.

By impugning a dead child’s reputation?

 

[sw85]

Are you asserting that Martin had as much basis to call the police as Zimmerman did: someone walking around behind people’s houses around a time there had been burglaries…?

I have no idea what you’re asking here.

If you’re asking me if I think Martin would’ve been justified in calling the police if he was genuinely concerned about being followed, well, yes, I do. If he had, it’s likely none of this would’ve happened – dispatchers might have put two-and-two together and told Zimmerman to knock it off.

By impugning a dead child’s reputation?

Again, he’s not a child (by anything but legal standards) and legitimately speculating about his character on the basis of what little evidence is available to us and when it’s relevant to the demands that Zimmerman be publicly executed is not the equivalent of impugning someone’s reputation.

Keep perspective, please.

 

[seekerz]

You read it wrong. Probably with bias thinking. Thats a cop calling in a description. Descriptions aren’t profiling. 17 years law enforcement, don’t insult me.

K. The next time I see a kid out walking with a hoodie, I’ll call the police, use those exact descriptive terms, and tell them you said it was okay…

Now, I’m coming around to an understanding of why Zimmerman may have called so many times.Human kids tend to walk around in clothing of the era, quite frequently…

 

[scipio337]

By impugning a dead child’s reputation?

How is examining social media comments “impugning”??

Especially when Zimmerman’s guilt or innocense hinges on one factor: was he attacked by Martin as he claimed?

 

[SamH]

According to the Chicago Sun-Times, “The state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed Monday that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press.”

I don’t think it can be automatically assumed that Zimmerman committed a crime under Florida law, especially since Florida law seems exceptionally broad with regards to when deadly force may be used in self-defense. I have my issues with whether this is likely to have been a moral act, but even if the act is something I would consider immoral, it could be that this is what Florida law allows its citizens to do. I don’t have enough information to say that Zimmerman ought to be convicted.

Having said that, when you shoot somebody and kill them, it does not seem that the burden of proof should be on the police to prove that it wasn’t self-defense, either. They ought not be bound to believe your account; neither should the belief that you were legally defending yourself mean that you had the right to shoot. If you kill someone, especially if you were both somewhere that the dead person had a right to be, it seems sensible to me that you ought to have to at least convince a judge that you ought to be out on your own recognisance.

Seems strange that Florida would let the press paw through juvenile records. If they’ve been sealed (like any good juvenile lawyer would do) there is nothing for anyone to find. Cops have a hard time getting into sealed juvenile records.

www.swfljac.org/expunge.pdf

 

[Havard]

No, because I don’t hear anything else on those tapes…yet the police came all the same. In my town, they’d have had my head examined or fined me.

What do you mean you don’t? His demeanor? Listen to his comments again. He keeps talking about how weird he thinks Trayvon is acting. He’s convinced Trayvon is on something. What does that have to do with race??? The only time he even mentions race, it’s to give the police operator a description.