Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[seekerz]

Zimmerman’s life was not in danger. If Zimmerman approached Martin after watching him as the previous poster suggested, that puts Zimmerman in the wrong. What was Zimmerman going to do after approaching him? He can’t arrest him.

Exactly.

Even if this was nothing more than a tragic accident resulting from both people fearing for their lives, who should bear the blame? The adult who followed a child, armed with a gun or the child who was doing nothing wrong?

 

[iamrefreshed]

I keep hearing slightly different info about those 8 break-ins but have not seen any confirmation of those incidents.

Let’s assume that there had been 8, did that leave Zimmerman calling in reports of any stranger in his neighborhood, or just certain strangers?

I mean, there were two school shootings in my area recently, but I’m not suspicious of all schoolkids - in fact, not even those who look like the shooters…

Apparently Zimmerman did call 911 on many, many instances. I have no idea if they were all based on race.

You might think differently about the schoolchildren if your job were their protection and not that of bystander.

 

[gilliam]

Apparently Zimmerman did call 911 on many, many instances. I have no idea if they were all based on race.

You might think differently about the schoolchildren if your job were their protection and not that of bystander.

Apparently it wasn’t 911 that he called. It was a non emergency police number for neighborhood watchers.

 

[mtbender]

Zimmerman’s life was not in danger. If Zimmerman approached Martin after watching him as the previous poster suggested, that puts Zimmerman in the wrong. What was Zimmerman going to do after approaching him? He can’t arrest him.

Wrong – as a matter of opinion - yes. But as far as I know following someone is not illegal (unless it gets to the degree of stalking or harassment). Just as Martin was not committing a crime, neither was Zimmerman.

The question becomes who crossed the line first.

 

[seekerz]

Because they were fighting. And if they were fighting over a gun, as Zimmerman’s brother said, it now becomes a matter of defending your life, not your property.

I don’t get it. You say they were fighting. Do you or Zimmerman’s brother know when Martin saw the gun?

Which sounds more plausible: Martin sees a gun and takes steps to defend himself, in the course of which Zimmerman fears for his life? Or Martin is almost home and suddenly decides to end the life of a stranger simply for, what again? Turning away from following him?

Methinks there is a problem with the Zimmerman defense strategy - it doesn’t (from Joe Oliver’s MSNBC implosion, to that guy who got his mic cut off on Nancy Grace the other evening) pay enough respect to the intelligence of the very people it is seeking to influence. Not commenting on the facts; just the attitudes.

 

[catharina]

Right.

But that brings us into bigger speculation territory, which I am loathe to go into…

I’ll just say this. Lost people typically look for specific markers. House numbers, street signs, etc. Well, we know actually know that Trayvon wasn’t lost, so if he was indeed “walking around looking about” as Zimmerman said, it is reasonable to speculate that his manner of looking about was in a different manner than looking for house numbers or street names. He may have been just curious, there’s certainly no crime in looking at things. But we do know that Zimmerman was actively looking for suspicious things, sometimes the mind sees what it wants to.

We don’t “actually” know that and we never will.
The map of the nighborhood was posted in the previous thread.
The “neighborhood” was a complex of completely identical buildings.
Trayvon was walking in a strange neighborhood at night in the rain.

We’ll never know if he was feeling lost or uncertain or confused.
From his girlfriend we hear that he knew a strange man was following him.

That one fact could unsettle anyone.

 

[seekerz]

Apparently Zimmerman did call 911 on many, many instances. I have no idea if they were all based on race.

You might think differently about the schoolchildren if your job were their protection and not that of bystander.

Thinking about is different from being suspicious of.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Which sounds more plausible: Martin sees a gun and takes steps to defend himself, in the course of which Zimmerman fears for his life? Or Martin is almost home and suddenly decides to end the life of a stranger simply for, what again? Turning away from following him?

.

Why are these the only two choices?

 

[maryjk]

Zimmerman’s life was not in danger. If Zimmerman approached Martin after watching him as the previous poster suggested, that puts Zimmerman in the wrong. What was Zimmerman going to do after approaching him? He can’t arrest him.

What???

I feel like I am defending praying the Hail Mary, and the person I am talking to says, "yeh, but you guys also worship statues.

My comment was solely on the fact that the police did not tell Zimmerman to do anything. Zimmerman was not on the phone with the police. He was on the phone with a dispatcher. The dispatcher has no authority to order anyone to do anything.

How that information says anything about Zimmerman’s life being in danger, I don’t know.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Thinking about is different from being suspicious of.

My point is that you might become suspicious if your job were to protect.

 

[seekerz]

Look at the transcript . He reported both that he was suspecious and he gave examples of suspecious activity "We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. "

911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman:
He looks black.
911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher:
Late teens?
Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]

If you have a CC permit, you can carry.

Because he would not want the police there too early if he was going to set up a scene to look like self defense if it was not. The KKK for example never called the cops (unless one of them was a KKK member)

Not sure why you underlined those sections. Also, did you notice the TX man I referenced, also called police and disobeyed the dispatcher before defending -]his neighbor’s property/-], I mean ‘himself’? Just to show that placing a 911 call does not indicate presence or absence of intent to use deadly force.

 

[seekerz]

My point is that you might become suspicious if your job were to protect.

Suspicious of all 300 kids in a school because they look like the 2 who recently were involved in two recent school shootings? I’d need a police dispatcher simply dedicated to my calls, now wouldn’t I?

 

[HailStarofSea]

Wrong – as a matter of opinion - yes. But as far as I know following someone is not illegal (unless it gets to the degree of stalking or harassment). Just as Martin was not committing a crime, neither was Zimmerman.

The question becomes who crossed the line first.

There are also questions of provocation and recklessness with life.

Martin was not only committing a crime. He does not seem to be doing anything wrong as a matter of opinion or not. He is running away from someone who is following him. The person following him complains that “these ******** always get away.” If so, is it that he took the matter in his own hands because he was afraid that the police would let this one get away as well? This would seem to be harassment and make the word “vigilante” appropriate. Vigilante: “legally or illegally punishes an alleged lawbreaker, or participates in a group which metes out extralegal punishment to an alleged lawbreaker.”

 

[seekerz]

Why are these the only two choices?

Oh, those are just mine, based on the stories of Zimmerman’s friends & family. Feel free to add yours.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Suspicious of all 300 kids in a school because they look like the 2 who recently were involved in two recent school shootings? I’d need a police dispatcher simply dedicated to my calls, now wouldn’t I?

That’s hyperbole. You might become suspicious of one if he were wearing a long black trenchcoat.

 

[gilliam]

Not sure why you underlined those sections. .

they were underlined in the original

 

[seekerz]

sometimes the mind sees what it wants to.

Forgive me for cutting off your post, but those word are absolutely correct…not to mention, relevant.

 

[seekerz]

they were underlined in the original

Ok. Guess we’re looking at different transcripts.

 

[HailStarofSea]

What???

I feel like I am defending praying the Hail Mary, and the person I am talking to says, "yeh, but you guys also worship statues.

My comment was solely on the fact that the police did not tell Zimmerman to do anything. Zimmerman was not on the phone with the police. He was on the phone with a dispatcher. The dispatcher has no authority to order anyone to do anything.

How that information says anything about Zimmerman’s life being in danger, I don’t know.

The original post was:

Bocephus:

Another likelihood is that Zimmerman simply approached Martin after watching him and reasonably concluding that Martin was looking for trouble tried talk to him and got jumped when he turned his back to him. At that point Martin sealed his fate by making th confrontation physical, and he would then be guilty and the reason for his own death.

But let’s just believe one possible likelihood over another based on personal preference.

I am saying that this is not reasonable at all. If it happened this way - which I don’t think it did as no one involved in the case, not even Zimmerman says it did - , he called the dispatcher for advice, they told him to do nothing, he tried to do something anyways even though there was nothing he could reasonably do but create a conflict. It is reckless.

 

[seekerz]

That’s hyperbole. You might become suspicious of one if he were wearing a long black trenchcoat.

Point taken. But not if he were wearing a baseball cap or a pair of jeans, correct?