Tridentine in english ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dljl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And they’ll be arguing about the crummy English translation of the Tridentine Mass for the next 40 years. Great idea.
 
So the “Rite of St. Gregory the Great” cannot be done in the vernacular?. How will the majority of people be able to understand the Tridentine Mass if it is not done in the vernacular. Do you really think thousands of Roman Catholics around the world will be taking Latin courses. Let’s be realistic here. Even if you read the English while the mass was being said, if you did not understand Latin, you would be lost as to where the priest was in the wording. I’m sure the Divine Liturgies were meant to be only said in Greek. But thankfully the Orthodox used their heads, and changed the language to vernacular without disturbing the Liturgy at all. Can’t say much for the Roman Church, and Novus Ordo!. I’m sure St. Gregory the Great would approve if he were here on Earth.
 
Let me ask you this?. Do the Orthodox ask about the crummy English translations. No they choose the translations that work best with the chanting in the Liturgy as a whole!. I can imagine what it would sound like with people trying to speak Latin properly. Translations are the least of your worries!.
KMXV said:
And they’ll be arguing about the crummy English translation of the Tridentine Mass for the next 40 years. Great idea.
Click to expand...
 
bkovacs said:
So the “Rite of St. Gregory the Great” cannot be done in the vernacular?. How will the majority of people be able to understand the Tridentine Mass if it is not done in the vernacular. Do you really think thousands of Roman Catholics around the world will be taking Latin courses. Let’s be realistic here. Even if you read the English while the mass was being said, if you did not understand Latin, you would be lost as to where the priest was in the wording. I’m sure the Divine Liturgies were meant to be only said in Greek. But thankfully the Orthodox used their heads, and changed the language to vernacular without disturbing the Liturgy at all. Can’t say much for the Roman Church, and Novus Ordo!. I’m sure St. Gregory the Great would approve if he were here on Earth.
Click to expand...
It was done for 1500+ years.

Latin is the language of the Church, but nobody expects each and every Catholic to be fluent in the language. I have been regularly attending the Tridentine Mass for less then a year, but already I know the prayers of the Mass. Regular attendance at Mass is all that is needed.
 
bkovacs said:
Let me ask you this?. Do the Orthodox ask about the crummy English translations. No they choose the translations that work best with the chanting in the Liturgy as a whole!. I can imagine what it would sound like with people trying to speak Latin properly. Translations are the least of your worries!.
Click to expand...
They dont have to speak Latin. The priest and the servers pray in Latin, the people may silently pray in vernacular if they wish.
 
You seem to forget that allot of the people couldn’t even read let alone speak Latin in the very early church. And Greek is the language of the East. Not every Roman Catholic, has the time to learn a new language.
Caesar said:
It was done for 1500+ years.

Latin is the language of the Church, but nobody expects each and every Catholic to be fluent in the language. I have been regularly attending the Tridentine Mass for less then a year, but already I know the prayers of the Mass. Regular attendance at Mass is all that is needed.
Click to expand...
 
So what if the priest doesn’t even understand Latin or the servers or the altar boys. Their are allot of them that don’t understand Latin thanks in part to V2. It would be allot easier for them to transition to the Tridentine Mass if it were in English.
Caesar said:
They dont have to speak Latin. The priest and the servers pray in Latin, the people may silently pray in vernacular if they wish.
Click to expand...
 
bkovacs said:
You seem to forget that allot of the people couldn’t even read let alone speak Latin in the very early church. And Greek is the language of the East. Not every Roman Catholic, has the time to learn a new language.
Click to expand...
You are ignoring what I just said. I said that the laity does NOT have to learn Latin! Even today (although of course this is ignored) every Catholic should know their basic prayers in Latin. In addition, it is quite easy to pick up the Latin prayers of the Tridentine Mass with regular attendance. That is NOT to say that every Catholic man, woman and child has to be fluent in the language.
So what if the priest doesn’t even understand Latin or the servers or the altar boys. Their are allot of them that don’t understand Latin thanks in part to V2. It would be allot easier for them to transition to the Tridentine Mass if it were in English.
Click to expand...
Then that should change. Latin studies in seminary should be mandatory, and shame on the Dioceses where they are not (in fact the Holy See still expects priests to know Latin).

As for servers, they dont have to know Latin, just the prayers.
 
Quote: “Then that should change. Latin studies in seminary should be mandatory, and shame on the Dioceses where they are not (in fact the Holy See still expects priests to know Latin).”

I agree but being realistic again it isn’t mandatory. It is hard enough just to get priests, let alone having them speak fluentley in multiple languages. What about Greek and Hebrew?. The Bible was written in these two languages. And what about Aramaic, the language Christ spoke while he was here on Earth with us. Should they be mandatory as well?.
Caesar said:
You are ignoring what I just said. I said that the laity does NOT have to learn Latin! Even today (although of course this is ignored) every Catholic should know their basic prayers in Latin. In addition, it is quite easy to pick up the Latin prayers of the Tridentine Mass with regular attendance. That is NOT to say that every Catholic man, woman and child has to be fluent in the language.

Then that should change. Latin studies in seminary should be mandatory, and shame on the Dioceses where they are not (in fact the Holy See still expects priests to know Latin).

As for servers, they dont have to know Latin, just the prayers.
Click to expand...
 
Don’t get me wrong I understand what you are saying. But we need to look at reality. In a perfect world that would happen. But we are not living in a perfect world are we. We have to start somewhere, and the Tridentine Mass in English would be a better starting point for people before they migrate to a Latin only Tridentine Mass. Roman Catholics today still want to understand what is being said at the Mass as the Mass is taking place. And for those priests who never learned Latin. They could still perform the Mass. Then later if the majority of people can understand basic Latin. Then more Latin can be added. It would sit better with both sides if an English Tridentine Mass became reality, for the sake of preserving the Tridentine Mass, versus a Latin only Tridentine Mass that only a few may attend, providing one is available, and their is a priest that knows Latin well enough to perform it.
 
bkovacs said:
Quote: “Then that should change. Latin studies in seminary should be mandatory, and shame on the Dioceses where they are not (in fact the Holy See still expects priests to know Latin).”

I agree but being realistic again it isn’t mandatory. It is hard enough just to get priests, let alone having them speak fluentley in multiple languages. What about Greek and Hebrew?. The Bible was written in these two languages. And what about Aramaic, the language Christ spoke while he was here on Earth with us. Should they be mandatory as well?.
Click to expand...
Every priest should know:
  1. The vernacular of their country
  2. English (the language of the modern world; at least well enough to engage in basic communication)
  3. Latin (fluently)
  4. Greek (enough to research and understand Scripture)
  5. Hebrew (enough to research and understand Scripture)
  6. Any other vernacular languages needed in the area where they serve.
They should know these languages even apart from any demands of the liturgy. They should know them for formational and apologetical reasons as well.

In most schools, Protestant preachers are required to learn Greek, Hebrew, and in some cases German and/or Latin.

Those priests, who truly have a calling, won’t shrink from a requirement that they learn the languages of Scripture and the Church. It is shocking that they are not required…
 
bkovacs said:
My question is this. What if, the Tridentine Mass was brought back in all it’s glory, High Mass and Low Mass, but in English, or what ever language of the country. In the Orthodox Church the Divine Liturgies are done in the vernacular, but the Liturgy is the same, NO CHANGES!!, in any language. If you took a 1962 Tridentine Missal and instead if saying the mass in Latin, apart from the Gregorian chant, say it in English, with the translation of the let’s say “English Tridentine Mass”. Or if your in Germany, the “German Tridentine Mass”, only differentiated by the language. How would this sound. The Mass would be just as elaborate, just as solemn, and spiritual. The “English Tridentine Mass”, could very well solve the probems we have with the Latin Mass vs Novus Ordo debate. The Tridentine Mass in the spirit of the Mass of old (so traditionalists can’t argue that the Mass is not as solemn and beautiful), and The Novus Ordo Mass in the spirit of the Vernacular (So people won’t say they can’t understand Latin). Why is it so hard to make an attempt to do this?. Do away with the Novus Ordo and create the “Vernacular Tridentine Mass”!. Problem Solved!! Call it the Tridentine Mass 2007edition.
Click to expand...
This is taken from…“It is time for a renewal of Catholic Faith and a complete understanding of the Mass and the sacramental priesthood”,.by Reverend Kenneth E. Myers.

The use of Latin for Mass is so valuable in our world today, where the English language has become so profane and vulgar. Latin removes the Mass from the realm of everyday life. It sets the Mass apart from the world, so that when we come to church our minds and hearts are called upon to leave the world behind and enter into the realm of the sacred. Latin helps us to make this transition from the worldly to the sacred. In this way, Latin becomes the language by which we speak to to God, separating what is profane from what is sacred. Indeed the great Catholic philosopher Dietrich von Hildebrand said that modern liturgists have “replaced holy intimacy with Christ by an unbecoming familiarity.” He meant that the replacement of Latin with the vernacular at Mass has actually placed a distance between the Lord and People, in contradiction to what is popularly believed. Latin addresses God at Mass, but our common speech is directed to man. The use of Latin at Mass does not create an artificial barrier between God and man, but rather enables us to address God with a gracious elegance that befits the prayer of the creature offered to his Creator. However, someone may say that all we need do is sprinkle the new rite of the Mass with a little Latin and all will be well. Not so fast. I’m afraid. The use of Latin in the liturgy has another important purpose. The use of Latin also enshrines the rituals, ceremonies, and carefully articulated prayers of the old rite of Mass. There are no “options” by which the celebrant of the Mass-or a “liturgy committee”-can make the mistake of thinking the Mass is his own creation. No matter what the popular modern song says we aren’t at Mass to “tell our story.” We’re at Mass to participate in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ offered on the cross to his Father for the forgivenss of our sins. Latin in the Mass ensures that what we’re getting is the authentic liturgy of the Church without anyone’s own opinions or personal agenda gettting in the way. If someone wants to “tell his story” he should go to Confession.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top