Tridentine in english ?

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bkovacs said:
My question is this. What if, the Tridentine Mass was brought back in all it’s glory, High Mass and Low Mass, but in English, or what ever language of the country. In the Orthodox Church the Divine Liturgies are done in the vernacular, but the Liturgy is the same, NO CHANGES!!, in any language. If you took a 1962 Tridentine Missal and instead if saying the mass in Latin, apart from the Gregorian chant, say it in English, with the translation of the let’s say “English Tridentine Mass”. Or if your in Germany, the “German Tridentine Mass”, only differentiated by the language. How would this sound. The Mass would be just as elaborate, just as solemn, and spiritual. The “English Tridentine Mass”, could very well solve the probems we have with the Latin Mass vs Novus Ordo debate. The Tridentine Mass in the spirit of the Mass of old (so traditionalists can’t argue that the Mass is not as solemn and beautiful), and The Novus Ordo Mass in the spirit of the Vernacular (So people won’t say they can’t understand Latin). Why is it so hard to make an attempt to do this?. Do away with the Novus Ordo and create the “Vernacular Tridentine Mass”!. Problem Solved!! Call it the Tridentine Mass 2007edition.
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Remeber friend… One of the major arguments is WHY we need Latin so badly…
 
Uxor said:
This is taken from…“It is time for a renewal of Catholic Faith and a complete understanding of the Mass and the sacramental priesthood”,.by Reverend Kenneth E. Myers.

Latin in the Mass ensures that what we’re getting is the authentic liturgy of the Church without anyone’s own opinions or personal agenda gettting in the way. If someone wants to “tell his story” he should go to Confession.
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Amen to that!

Seems that when I was grade school in the 40’s, we had a book that was called a missal and it had the latin propers and the ordinary on one side and an authentic english translation on the other side of the page. Never was a problem for me to understand what was going on.

There is an aura of solemnity and a generation of a real sense of awe and majesty in the “old” Mass that is missing in any vernacular translation. There is also a loss of “global community”. I remember in the 60’s attending Masses in Germany, France, the Low Countries and Italy and really appreciating what it was to be a part of a truly catholic comminity.

Hopefully, we’ll get a new and approved daily/Sunday Missal and be able to follow and appreciate the beauty of the Latin with the translation beside it.

BTW—If you want to hear something ugly, listen to Italian opera sung in English or, worse yet, German 😦
 
Yes, the “Opera Argument” has always been a good one for me. Opera is meant for a given language, as is the ROMAN liturgy. No one is demanding we translate opera, and yet people still go and enjoy it.
Hopefully, we’ll get a new and approved daily/Sunday Missal and be able to follow and appreciate the beauty of the Latin with the translation beside it.
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Yup. And then you can go to any country with your own missal, and the mass is the same and you can follow along in English even if you are in Germany with a Chinese priest and a congregation of visiting Brazilians, because there is a common medium of translation: latin. Everything’s in latin, so each person only needs one missal to translate into their tongue no matter where they are. Nowadays, if I was travelling around Europe, I would need a French-English missal, a Spanish-English missal, an Italian-English missal, a German-English missal, a Swedish-English missal, a Hungarian-English missal…you get the point. And I’m not even sure such missals exist (except for Spanish-English which I have seen)

By reducing it to one language, you have a common reference point which then any person can convert to their own language by owning only ONE book.
 
bkovacs said:
Oh so now were defending the Novus Ordo Mass. Guaranteed he wasn’t saying the Mass in Latin!. Shame on Him!. It’s a disaster so that is an exception!. Is that what you all think?. Guaranteed their will be more Hurricanes to hit New Orleans. You all forget that the Ukranian Orthodox Christians had to deal with the victims of Chernobyl, which mind you was way worse than a Hurricane!. Children who were not born at that time have still suffered because of the effects their parents endured through radiation!. But we still let our faith endure. We don’t give in to liberals and we know our faith. Even if a disaster occurs our worship is still the same. Does not change!. We have holy tradition.
Watch This Slideshow!.
pixelpress.org/chernobyl/
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Dude/dudette, in Chernobyl the Churches where they could say Mass weren’t destroyed. In New Orleans, the Churches were flooded and transportation was just about impossible for days after the hurricane. How did this turn into a Chernobyl discussion?🤷 This isn’t even a discussion of Novus Ordo vs. Tridentine.
 
Tridentine in vernacular is an oxymoron. Violates both Trent and Vatican II.
 
Actually,
the Tridentine Mass done in the Vernacular would be an unbelievably beautiful liturgy.
The time that I did attend a Tridentine mass, I followed along in the Missal in English because I don’t understand Latin.

The disciplinary liturgical laws of Trent or V-2 can easily be set aside by the Pope or a Council for the greater good, and the Old Mass in the vernacular would be wonderful and very enriching.
 
BobP123 said:
Tridentine in vernacular is an oxymoron. Violates both Trent and Vatican II.
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Rubbish. The Council of Trent did not wholesale reject the vernacular, it simply said that it did not seem appropriate at that time to switch. Subsequent popes allowed the Pian Mass to be said in the vernacular, in various parts of Eastern Europe and in China. And the extension of the vernacular in the Pauline Mass had the approval of Pope Paul VI. Catholic understanding is that in a matter of discipline, the pope cannot be bound by a previous pope, let alone a council.
 
The biggest problem with this would be the translation. I have seen the differences in translation from Latin to English be so simplified as to lose their beauty and reverence; namely the translations in The Handbook of Indulgences as compared to the translations in The Raccolta.
 
From Session 22 of the Council of Trent:

Canon IX.—Si quis dixerit, Ecclesiæ Romanæ ritum, quo submissa voce pars canonis et verba consecrationis proferuntur, damnandum esse; aut lingua tantum vulgari missam celebrari debere; aut aquam non miscendam esse vino in calice offerendo, eo quod sit contra Christi institutionem: anathema sit.

Canon IX.—If anyone saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ: let him be anathema.
 
GoLatin said:
I prefer the Tridentine Mass in Latin, over any other Rite of Mass in any other language.

Some things are so beautiful, that you don’t really care if you don’t understand every word.

To give some non-Latin examples:
  1. Italian opera, Nessun Dorma in particular(sung by Pavarotti at the Olympic Opening Ceremonies) is so beautiful, that I don’t care if I don’t understand the words. I don’t know what the meaning of Nessun Dorma is, but it is beautiful to listen to.
  2. One song in Welsh that I have heard is so beautiful, that again, I don’t care if I don’t understand the words.
Both of these examples above are not, of course, appropriate to sing at Mass.
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👍
 
BobP123 said:
From Session 22 of the Council of Trent:

Canon IX.—Si quis dixerit, Ecclesiæ Romanæ ritum, quo submissa voce pars canonis et verba consecrationis proferuntur, damnandum esse; aut lingua tantum vulgari missam celebrari debere; aut aquam non miscendam esse vino in calice offerendo, eo quod sit contra Christi institutionem: anathema sit.

Canon IX.—If anyone saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ: let him be anathema.
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:sleep:
  1. No one has condemned the canon being recited in a low tone.
  2. No one has said that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only. Further, if that means what YOU think it means, then several post Tridentine popes (but pre VII) anathematized themselves because they allowed it to be offered in the vulgar tongue.
 
Council of Trent, Session 22
Canon IX.—Si quis dixerit, Ecclesiæ Romanæ ritum, quo submissa voce pars canonis et verba consecrationis proferuntur, damnandum esse; aut lingua tantum vulgari missam celebrari debere; aut aquam non miscendam esse vino in calice offerendo, eo quod sit contra Christi institutionem: anathema sit.
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Canon IX.—If anyone saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ: let him be anathema.
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👍
 
Jaypeeto3 said:
Actually,
the Tridentine Mass done in the Vernacular would be an unbelievably beautiful liturgy.
The time that I did attend a Tridentine mass, I followed along in the Missal in English because I don’t understand Latin.

The disciplinary liturgical laws of Trent or V-2 can easily be set aside by the Pope or a Council for the greater good, and the Old Mass in the vernacular would be wonderful and very enriching.
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Martin Luther said something like that too.
 
Singer1 said:
Amen to that!

Seems that when I was grade school in the 40’s, we had a book that was called a missal and it had the latin propers and the ordinary on one side and an authentic english translation on the other side of the page. Never was a problem for me to understand what was going on.

There is an aura of solemnity and a generation of a real sense of awe and majesty in the “old” Mass that is missing in any vernacular translation. There is also a loss of “global community”. I remember in the 60’s attending Masses in Germany, France, the Low Countries and Italy and really appreciating what it was to be a part of a truly catholic comminity.

Hopefully, we’ll get a new and approved daily/Sunday Missal and be able to follow and appreciate the beauty of the Latin with the translation beside it.

BTW—If you want to hear something ugly, listen to Italian opera sung in English or, worse yet, German 😦
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LOL…I’ll pass
 
BobP123 said:
Martin Luther said something like that too.
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Quo Primum was promulgated in 1570. Luther died (and was thus unavailable to offer comment) in 1546.

At any rate, if you’re implying that BECAUSE Martin Luther advocated the use of the vernacular in worship it is, ipso facto, of the devil, then you committed the genesis fallacy, ie, that something is incorrect simply because of its origin, its genesis.
 
BobP123 said:
Council of Trent, Session 22

👍
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:sleep: :sleep::sleep:

Once again:
  1. No one has condemned the canon being recited in a low tone.
  2. No one has said that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only. Further, if that means what YOU think it means, then several post Tridentine popes (but pre VII) anathematized themselves because they allowed it to be offered in the vulgar tongue.
 
Looking on the bright side of it, at least if Mass is celebrated in Latin, it would be hard for priests to ad-lib parts of the Mass (especially those who don’t know much Latin; it would take years of study).

I’m fearing though, will the Liturgical Wreckovators study Latin thoroughly and then translate those heretical songs in Latin and turn them into Gregorian Chant to make them more ‘acceptable’/ use their knowledge to ad-lib the parts of the Mass?
(Somehow, I think ‘On Eagle’s wings: Latin chant version’ is an oxymoron. It wouldn’t work. Plus, it would really be awkward. Perhaps.)
 
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