Troubled by Matthew 7:13

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catholic.org/bible/book.php?bible_chapter=7&id=47

“Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” - Matthew 7:13

This one line in the bible (or at least, the way I always see it being interpreted) has always bothered me because of the great deal of cognitive dissonance it causes in me.

The main reason I worship God is not because he is all-powerful, but because he is all-loving. Indeed there are numerous verses in the bible that talk about how loving and compassionate God is, about how he was so compassionate that he died to forgive our sins, about how no matter how much we sin and how horrible our sins God will never stop loving us and about how he will welcome us back with open arms the moment we repent (sinners are compared to Lost Sheep and Runaway Sons).

God’s love gives me hope: the world is a cruel place. It is a place full of remorseless monsters who go their whole lives without being punished for their cruelties and of innocent people who suffer and die unduly.
In the face of this, I have always taken comfort in the knowledge of God’s Love. The idea that no matter how unfair the world or life might be, God IS fair and will not damn the innocent or the repentant.

Then a lot of Christians on The Internet claim that the vast majority of humans on earth go to Hell, and cite Matthew 7:13 as evidence of this. If God loves every human being, than why would he stack the cards against us? Matthew 7:13 makes it seem like God doesn’t even want us to go to Heaven.

I do not see how it can be possible for a world ruled by a all-loving God to also be a world in which 8 out of every 10 humans (or even a majority of humans) go to Hell. To be honest the very idea makes me sick, and even now I can not hear or read a reference to “The Narrow Path” in a Christian Context without feeling a little disgusted.

Does Matthew 7:13 mean something else? Are there any other possible interpretations?

Because the idea of more humans going to hell than to heaven is one that I can not reconcile with the idea of an All-Loving God.
Also see: Philippians 2

12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.[k] 13 For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. 14 Do everything without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation,[l] among whom you shine like lights in the world, 16 as you hold on to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

[k] 2:12 Fear and trembling: a common Old Testament expression indicating awe and seriousness in the service of God (cf. Ex 15:16; Jdt 2:28; Ps 2:11; Is 19:16).
[l] 2:15–16 Generation…as you hold on to…: or “…generation. Among them shine like lights in the world because you hold the word of life….”
 
Those apparitions are not approved.

In my opinion, ‘reasonable’ is an odd way of approaching the question, since salvation is the reception of divine grace through the use of free will. It is something that God does not have control over., in spite of his omnipotence, which in this case has been forfeited.

Being damned is unreasonable but this is the act of the soul. According to private revelation, the banishment to hell is in itself merciful because a soul that has perpetually rescinded grace would be even more tormented in the direct presence of God than they would in the distant place they dwell. The damned have a severe repulsion to everything that is holy. Although even in their distant place - where their torment is decreased - the torment they suffer makes the worst earthly suffering appear trifling. Being consumed in an earthly fire is, according to St Padre Pio, being immersed in fresh water compared to the fire beyond.
So, you must have a problem with… most people go to Purgatory…part, is that because you think God is showing too much Mercy ?
 
Those apparitions are not approved.

In my opinion, ‘reasonable’ is an odd way of approaching the question, since salvation is the reception of divine grace through the use of free will. It is something that God does not have control over., in spite of his omnipotence, which in this case has been forfeited.

Being damned is unreasonable but this is the act of the soul. According to private revelation, the banishment to hell is in itself merciful because a soul that has perpetually rescinded grace would be even more tormented in the direct presence of God than they would in the distant place they dwell. The damned have a severe repulsion to everything that is holy. Although even in their distant place - where their torment is decreased - the torment they suffer makes the worst earthly suffering appear trifling. Being consumed in an earthly fire is, according to St Padre Pio, being immersed in fresh water compared to the fire beyond.
It is always interesting to see what people think of the definition of mercy.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Mercy

The disposition to be kind and forgiving. Founded on compassion, mercy differs from compassion or the feeling of sympathy in putting this feeling into practice with a readiness to assist. It is therefore the ready willingness to help anyone in need, especially in need of pardon or reconciliation.
 
It is always interesting to see what people think of the definition of mercy.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Mercy

The disposition to be kind and forgiving. Founded on compassion, mercy differs from compassion or the feeling of sympathy in putting this feeling into practice with a readiness to assist. It is therefore the ready willingness to help anyone in need, especially in need of pardon or reconciliation.
Right, so which is it…God’s Justice or God’s Mercy ?
 
catholic.org/bible/book.php?bible_chapter=7&id=47

“Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” - Matthew 7:13

This one line in the bible (or at least, the way I always see it being interpreted) has always bothered me because of the great deal of cognitive dissonance it causes in me.

The main reason I worship God is not because he is all-powerful, but because he is all-loving. Indeed there are numerous verses in the bible that talk about how loving and compassionate God is, about how he was so compassionate that he died to forgive our sins, about how no matter how much we sin and how horrible our sins God will never stop loving us and about how he will welcome us back with open arms the moment we repent (sinners are compared to Lost Sheep and Runaway Sons).

God’s love gives me hope: the world is a cruel place. It is a place full of remorseless monsters who go their whole lives without being punished for their cruelties and of innocent people who suffer and die unduly.
In the face of this, I have always taken comfort in the knowledge of God’s Love. The idea that no matter how unfair the world or life might be, God IS fair and will not damn the innocent or the repentant.

Then a lot of Christians on The Internet claim that the vast majority of humans on earth go to Hell, and cite Matthew 7:13 as evidence of this. If God loves every human being, than why would he stack the cards against us? Matthew 7:13 makes it seem like God doesn’t even want us to go to Heaven.

I do not see how it can be possible for a world ruled by a all-loving God to also be a world in which 8 out of every 10 humans (or even a majority of humans) go to Hell. To be honest the very idea makes me sick, and even now I can not hear or read a reference to “The Narrow Path” in a Christian Context without feeling a little disgusted.

Does Matthew 7:13 mean something else? Are there any other possible interpretations?

Because the idea of more humans going to hell than to heaven is one that I can not reconcile with the idea of an All-Loving God.
This is not about an all loving God which He is, doing His part to love us which He does. It’s about US doing our part to love Him.

The 2 greatest commandments are

    • Love God with our whole heart soul mind and strength
    • Love our neighbor as ourself
    How does God define and qualify love for HIM?
    • If you love me keep my commandments, iow do what I say [Jn 14:15]
    Mt 17:13
    Jesus, the one who judges EVERYONE, is telling us in advance how few people actually persevere till the end, doing that, (keep those commandments)
 
Right, so which is it…God’s Justice or God’s Mercy ?
You say it is either one of the other and not both?

God’s mercy is over all His works (Ps. 145:9)
All of God’s ways are merciful (Ps. 25:10)

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Divine Justice

The constant and unchanging will of God to give everyone what is due him or her. Every possible form of justice is possessed by God. He practices legal justice in that through the natural and moral law he co-ordinates creatures to the common good; distributive justice because he gives to his creatures everything they need to fulfill the purpose of their existence; remunerative justice because he rewards the good; and vindictive justice because he punishes the wicked.
 
You say it is either one of the other and not both?

God’s mercy is over all His works (Ps. 145:9)
All of God’s ways are merciful (Ps. 25:10)

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Divine Justice

The constant and unchanging will of God to give everyone what is due him or her. Every possible form of justice is possessed by God. He practices legal justice in that through the natural and moral law he co-ordinates creatures to the common good; distributive justice because he gives to his creatures everything they need to fulfill the purpose of their existence; remunerative justice because he rewards the good; and vindictive justice because he punishes the wicked.
I know it’s both, my point is that it seems that some people on this forum want to stress God’s Justice, while other like me want to stress God’s mercy.
 
I remember reading some Private Revelation where the Virgin Mary told someone that most people go to Purgatory, the next amount go to Hell,and the last few go straight Heaven.
Do you have a reference for that private revelation?

Matthew 7:13-14

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Re: Purgatory, it is only for those who die in a state of grace (no mortal sin) therefore, they are going to heaven after final purification. They by definition then are also on that narrow road because they also will enter the narrow gate,… heaven .

NOT SO for those going through the wide gate, taking the wide road, the easy way, that leads to destruction (hell). They don’t die in a state of grace. Everyone of THEM, as in everyone else is on THAT road. No purgatory for them. It’s hell for them
 
Do you have a reference for that private revelation?

Matthew 7:13-14

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Re: Purgatory, it is only for those who die in a state of grace (no mortal sin) therefore, they are going to heaven after final purification. They by definition then are also on that narrow road because they also will enter the narrow gate,… heaven .

NOT SO for those going through the wide gate, taking the wide road, the easy way, that leads to destruction (hell). They don’t die in a state of grace. Everyone of THEM, as in everyone else is on THAT road. No purgatory for them. It’s hell for them
Go to post # 37
 
So, you must have a problem with… most people go to Purgatory…part, is that because you think God is showing too much Mercy ?
I dont have a problem with any of it, except that they are not approved apparitions.

1 person going to hell is too many, yet before the world even began there were already swarms upon swarms of condemned spirits. God’s mercy on man has already been exercised to its fullness on the Cross, which has its graces poured out in every Mass. It is impossible to save somebody that has rescinded grace. After death, the rejection of grace is the same as an angel rejecting grace: it is permanent and mechanical. Keeping the damned in the sight of God would be unspeakably more horrible for them than if they were banished. The damned in hell endure a finite amount of agony for an eternal duration, which could be greater depending on the nature of their rejection. Catholics generally suffer greater in hell than others, or anybody who was given greater light than most.
 
I dont have a problem with any of it, except that they are not approved apparitions.

1 person going to hell is too many, but God’s mercy has already been exercised to its fullness on the Cross, which has its graces poured out in every Mass. It is impossible to save somebody that has rescinded grace. After death, the rejection of grace is the same as an angel rejecting grace: it is permanent and mechanical. Keeping the damned in the sight of God would be unspeakably more horrible for them than if they were banished. The damned in hell endure a finite amount of agony for an eternal duration, which could be greater depending on the nature of thekr rejection. Catholics generally suffer greater in hell than others.
Just because something has not yet been approved does not automatically make it not true.
 
here is post #37

could you show me where it says most people go to purgatory and not hell?
No, it was a message from the Virgin Mary to a visionary in Medjugorje that I Had read, believe it or don’t believe.
 
here is post #37

how does that answer what I responded to in #48

could you show me where it says most people go to purgatory and not hell?
I Corinthians 3:11-15:

10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Matthew 5:24-25
23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. 25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Need for Purification

Revelation 21
22 And I saw no temple therein. For the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof, and the Lamb. 23 And the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it. For the glory of God hath enlightened it, and the Lamb is the lamp thereof. 24 And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
 
I Corinthians 3:11-15:

10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Matthew 5:24-25
23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. 25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
Right, that the point I’m trying to make, that there are Hellish Levels in Purgatory
where prayers for these souls won’t do any good for them because they forgot Jesus and now Jesus forgets them.
 
T H E

S E C O N D

K I N G D O M

From the Mystical Revelations of Maria Valtorta

The Purifying Flames

JESUS :

"I want to explain to you what Purgatory is and in what it consists. And I explain it Myself, with a form that will clash with so many who believe themselves to be trustees of knowledge of the Beyond — and are not.

The souls immersed in those flames suffer only from love.

Not undeserving of possessing the Light, but not yet worthy of entering immediately into that Kingdom of Light, these souls, upon presenting themselves to God, become clothed with the Light. It is a brief, anticipated bliss, which makes them certain of their salvation, and makes known to them what their eternity will be. It makes them experience what they had committed toward their soul; thus defrauding it of years of the blessed possession of God. Immersed thereafter in the Place of Purgation, they are clothed with the expiatory flames.

In this matter, those who talk of ‘Purgatory’ speak rightly. But where they are not right is in wanting to apply various names to those flames.

These flames are a conflagration of Love. They purify by enkindling souls with love. They give Love because, when the soul has reached in them that love which it did not reach on earth, it is liberated and joined to Love in Heaven.

This seems to you a different doctrine than what is known — true? But reflect.

What does God, One and Triune, want for the souls created by Him? The Good.

He Who wants the Good for a creature, what sentiments does He have for that creature? Sentiments of Love.

What are the first and the second commandments, the two most important? Those of which I have said there are no greater, and in which are the keys for reaching Eternal Life? They are a commandment of love: ‘Love God with all your strength, love your neighbor as yourself.’

Through My own mouth and by the prophets and the saints, what have I said to you an infinite number of times? That Charity is the greatest of absolutions. Charity consumes the faults and the weaknesses of man, because he who loves lives in God, and by living in God he sins little; and if he sins he at once repents, and for him who is repentant there is the forgiveness of the Most High.

What is lacking to souls? Love. If they had loved much, they would have committed few and light sins, connected with your weakness and imperfections. But they would never have reached a conscious obstinacy in faults, even venial ones. If they would have striven not to grieve their Love, Love also, seeing their good will, would have absolved them even of the venial transgressions they committed.

How does one repair, even on earth, a fault? By expiating it — even if only with difficulty — through the means with which it was committed. He who has damaged something, by restoring whatever he has taken away with his insolence. He who has calumniated, by retracting the calumny, and so on.

Now: if poor human justice wants this, will not the holy Justice of God want it? And what means will God use to obtain reparation? Himself, that is, Love, and by exacting love.

All pivots on love, Maria, except for the truly ‘dead’: the damned. For these ‘dead,’ even Love is dead. But for the three Kingdoms — that of the heaviest: the Earth; that in which the weight of matter is abolished, but not of the soul burdened by sin: Purgatory; and finally that in which its inhabitants share with their Father the spiritual nature which frees them from every duty — for all three the motor is Love. It is by loving on earth that you work for Heaven. It is by loving in Purgatory that you conquer Heaven which in life you had not known how to merit. It is by loving in Paradise that you enjoy Heaven.

When a soul is in Purgatory it does not do anything but love, reflect, repent in the light of Love which has kindled for it these flames — which already are God, but which hide God from it for its punishment.

Behold the torment. The soul remembers the vision of God it had in its particular judgment. That memory is carried with it and, since to have even but glimpsed God is a joy which surpasses every created thing, the soul thus has anxiety to enjoy again that joy. That memory of God and that ray of light which had clothed it at its appearing before God, thus cause the soul to ‘see’ in their true essence the failures committed against its Good. And this ‘seeing,’ together with the thought that it has voluntarily forbidden itself the possession of Heaven and union with God for ages or centuries, constitute its purgative pain.

It is love, and the certainty of having offended Love, which is the torment of those being purged. The more a soul in life has failed, the more it is as if blinded by spiritual cataracts which make more difficult its knowing and reaching that perfect repentance of love which is the first collaboration with its purgation and its entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Love is weighed down and slowed down the more a soul has oppressed it with guilt. But as the power of Love cleanses it little by little, its resurrection to love is quickened and, in consequence, so is its conquest of Love — which is completed in the moment in which, having finished its expiation and reached the perfection of love, it is admitted into the City of God.

bardstown.com/~brchrys/
 
Right, that the point I’m trying to make, that there are Hellish Levels in Purgatory
where prayers for these souls won’t do any good for them because they forgot Jesus and now Jesus forgets them.
The the souls go immediately upon death, to hell, purgatory, or heaven.
  • Sate of Hell - prayers do not help them
  • State of Purgatory - temporary state, prayers do help them
  • State of Heaven
 
The the souls go immediately upon death, to hell, purgatory, or heaven.
  • Sate of Hell - prayers do not help them
  • State of Purgatory - temporary state, prayers do help them
  • State of Heaven
Actually I’m talking about the ante-purgatory if you know what that means.
 
Right, that the point I’m trying to make, that there are Hellish Levels in Purgatory
where prayers for these souls won’t do any good for them because they forgot Jesus and now Jesus forgets them.
Where are you getting this from?

A soul in Purgatory is saved. Jesus never forgets anybody in Purgatory and there is no teaching that there are souls in Purgatory who cannot benefit from prayers. What you are saying is that the Church on Earth or in Heaven can intervene on behalf of a soul in suffering and this will be in vain.
 
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