Troy Davis makes final appeal before execution

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Birdpreacher said:
SO? we have crazy people who have killed more individuals who are kept alive in state run institutions. If we dont kill those guys, then why are we going to kill this guy?
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Because there is no consistency in the approach of the various jurisdictions, for one thing. Some states allow capital punishment and some don’t. Some are more indulgent of mental illness than others.

But properly speaking, most people who kill because of insanity can be medicated to be less dangerous, and pretty much are. Even a paranoid schiz, whom many consider the most dangerous of all. But medication is of no value with a sociopath who is otherwise in full control of his thinking processes.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Because there is no consistency in the approach of the various jurisdictions, for one thing. Some states allow capital punishment and some don’t. Some are more indulgent of mental illness than others.
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Killing someone who is incompetent is a violation of Due Process since Ford v. Wainright (1986) If a mentally incompetent person kills someone, they go to mental facility indefinitely.
 
Ridgerunner said:
There are all sorts of systems we could think up. But truly secure prisons are not what we have. I’m talking about the here and now. If a truly psychopathic killer, particularly one who is utterly unrepentant, and even more particularly one who is with the Aryan Brotherhood, a very violent and deadly organization, is there any way, in reality (not ideally or fantastically) to deter THAT PERSON from killing or maiming or raping in the future, short of capital punishment?

Maybe supermax prisons for every dangerous prisoner in America (and that’s lots of them) would do it, but that’s not what we have or what we’re at all likely to have.

It seems then, for some criminals, the only way to truly protect the innocent potential victims is capital punishment.

I’m not defending capital punishment. I personally oppose it (as I said before, only because JPII did, and I oppose it out of reverence for him alone), but I am pointing out that there is a problem with carte blanche condemnation of it. And that problem is that prison is not an effective deterrent to many of worst criminals. And if it isn’t, are we not making the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty? Are we not failing in a moral duty to protect potential victims?
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WOnder how the rest of the civilized world functions without being overrun by these violent offenders. Seriously, if it wasnt for Commie China and Sharia Islamists, America would be one of the few countries which still kills people
 
Birdpreacher said:
Killing someone who is incompetent is a violation of Due Process since Ford v. Wainright (1986) If a mentally incompetent person kills someone, they go to mental facility indefinitely.
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Incompetence is one thing. A mental illness not sufficient to meet the M’Naughton Rule, for example, is another altogether. They are not treated in the same way. I was not talking about people who are truly incompetent.
 
Supreme court has denied his appeal.

May God have mercy on his soul.
 
Birdpreacher said:
WOnder how the rest of the civilized world functions without being overrun by these violent offenders. Seriously, if it wasnt for Commie China and Sharia Islamists, America would be one of the few countries which still kills people
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I am not a criminologist or penologist, and can’t tell you. Maybe there’s no such thing as the Aryan Brotherhood or MS-13 in, say, Germany. But regardless, I wasn’t talking about the nation being “overrun” by violent offenders. I never said it is. But it’s just a fact that there are lots of rapes, assaults and murders in prisons and unknown numbers ordered from prisons. And if so, then obviously imprisonment as we know it in this country, is insufficient to protect victims.

It isn’t just China and Islamic countries, though admittedly most developed countries don’t have capital punishment. It’s also permitted in Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, all first world countries operating under the rule of law, and all use it. There are others where it’s permitted but just isn’t used. It’s permitted in Israel only for military crimes.

But the real question remains unanswered. If prison does not protect victims, then are we not making potential victims pay the price for having no capital punishment of the perpetrators?

And if we are, why should we do that?

A second question would be, then, whether those who oppose capital punishment ought to direct their efforts toward increasing the funding to create more supermax prisons instead of trying to abolish capital punishment when adequate protection of victims is not there?
 
Ridgerunner said:
There are all sorts of systems we could think up. But truly secure prisons are not what we have. I’m talking about the here and now. If a truly psychopathic killer, particularly one who is utterly unrepentant, and even more particularly one who is with the Aryan Brotherhood, a very violent and deadly organization, is there any way, in reality (not ideally or fantastically) to deter THAT PERSON from killing or maiming or raping in the future, short of capital punishment?

Maybe supermax prisons for every dangerous prisoner in America (and that’s lots of them) would do it, but that’s not what we have or what we’re at all likely to have.

It seems then, for some criminals, the only way to truly protect the innocent potential victims is capital punishment.

I’m not defending capital punishment. I personally oppose it (as I said before, only because JPII did, and I oppose it out of reverence for him alone), but I am pointing out that there is a problem with carte blanche condemnation of it. And that problem is that prison is not an effective deterrent to many of worst criminals. And if it isn’t, are we not making the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty? Are we not failing in a moral duty to protect potential victims?
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As long as you mentioned “reality,” isn’t it the case that many convicted murderers on death row wait years for execution based on appeals? What kind of due punishment and swift justice is this? And isn’t it also true that whether or not an alleged murderer receives the death penalty often depends on what calliber of legal defense they can afford? Witness the many celebrity trials in which the accused are exonerated. The reality of the situation is that poverty is a factor of inequity in our legal system. Note I’m not playing the race card, but the class card.
 
meltzerboy said:
As long as you mentioned “reality,” isn’t it the case that many convicted murderers on death row wait years for execution based on appeals? What kind of due punishment and swift justice is this? And isn’t it also true that whether or not an alleged murderer receives the death penalty often depends on what calliber of legal defense they can afford? Witness the many celebrity trials in which the accused are exonerated. The reality of the situation is that poverty is a factor of inequity in our legal system. Note I’m not playing the race card, but the class card.
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They sure do spend a lot of time on death row. That’s not very swift justice, but it sure may result in due punishment. At a certain level, I have little doubt that the quality of legal representation (and, perhaps more importantly, “experts” and auxiliaries hired by them) makes a difference. But is there really any substantial evidence that it does below that level? Lawrence Brewer didn’t have a pot, but does anybody truly question his guilt? I haven’t seen a single person on here even suggest that. Troy Davis, of course, is viewed differently, for reasons about which we can speculate. But I would bet dollars to donuts witnesses in Brewer’s trial’s memories have changed just like they did with Davis.

Nobody ever said executions are something to be desired for their own sake. My questions don’t relate to that at all, but to the failure of deterrence in extreme cases. Can anybody really imagine that a guy like Brewer would NOT be dangerous even in prison?
Can anybody truly believe he would be unable to eventually kill someone there if he really had it in his mind to do it, or if the AB ordered him to do it?

Do you remember the guy who killed the child-abuser priest, Geoghan, in prison? His killer was under a life sentence in a state where a life sentence is the max penalty. He hated Geoghan because he had been sexually abused himself as a boy. He had absolutely nothing to lose in killing Geoghan, and he knew it. I’m not crying for Geoghan here. I’m just pointing out that his killer’s earlier life sentence was no deterrent at all.
 
abcnews.go.com/US/troy-davis-execution-delayed-supreme-court-decision/story?id=14571862

Troy Davis’ execution was delayed tonight as the Supreme Court weighed arguments by Davis’ legal team and the state of Georgia over whether he deserves a stay.

At 7:05 p.m., five minutes after his scheduled death, Davis’ supporters erupted in cheers, hugs and tears outside the jail in Jackson, Ga., as supporters believed Davis had been saved from the death penalty. But Davis was granted only a temporary reprieve as the Supreme Court considers the decision.

The warrant for Davis’ execution is valid until Sept. 28. The Georgia Resource Center, part of Davis’ legal defense team, said it was unsure how long the delay would last.

Davis was convicted of the 1989 murder of Savannah, Ga., policeman Mark MacPhail, and had his execution stayed four times over the course of his 22 years on death row, but multiple legal appeals during that time failed to prove his innocence.

Public support grew for Davis based on the recanted testimony of seven witnesses from his trial and the possible confession of another suspect, which his defense team claimed cast too much doubt on Davis’ guilt to follow through with an execution.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I But it’s just a fact that there are lots of rapes, assaults and murders in prisons and unknown numbers ordered from prisons. And if so, then obviously imprisonment as we know it in this country, is insufficient to protect victims.
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But the real question remains unanswered. If prison does not protect victims, then are we not making potential victims pay the price for having no capital punishment of the perpetrators?
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And if we are, why should we do that?
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Hi Ridge-
I agree with everything you say. In general, I am against the death penalty except in a case such as you mention above.

As the daughter of a murder victim, my father, 52 at the time, was murdered in 1975 when I was 20, in a home invasion. My mother was beaten, strangled, and left for dead. Her jaw had been broken in 3 places.

As shocked beyond belief at the loss of my father, and the manner in which he was taken away from us that I was, I never felt any sort of need for revenge towards his killers. They were a sorry excuse for humans.

I truly felt they were just pathetic spirits in human flesh. Not even evil, just non humans dressed up like humans. The facts about these people hiding in the yard, waiting for my dad to come home and turn off the alarm, were never in dispute, but the police never really pursued them for this murder because his case was in line after others for which they would serving life sentences. One only got 8 years. He blamed his accomplice, who had died in a prison fight, for pulling the trigger.

I can only speak for myself, but I never felt any need for revenge. I just don’t ever want to think somebody who committed a crime like this could get out and do it again.

I missed him so much when I had children, that they didn’t have their grandfather. My dad was great as a grandfather, but he died before it was their turn.

When Christ tells us to love the unlovable and to forgive 70x7, this is what I have to do.

I cannot pray for the people who killed my dad. I cannot pray for Troy Davis, so I pray for the ability to pray.

This thread brought back a lot of deep memories.

May :blessyou:God bless all who post here.
 
SamH said:
There is no doubt of his guilt for both murders.

I agree, I hope that people can find it in their hearts to forgive him for his crimes, but he still have a debt to society to pay.
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Is there not? I was under the impression that his case was based on eye witness accounts and yet most of the eye witnesses who testified at his trial have either recanted or changed their testimony. I’ve also heard that at least one juror who voted for the death penalty at his trial has stated publicly that if she knew then what she knew today about the case, she would never have voted for the death penalty since she now has doubt as to his guilt. I’m not really informed very much about the case, but from news accounts I thought there was doubt as to his guilt.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Remember that he is a member of a white supremacist gang that operates in the prisons as well as on the outside. (Might be the Aryan Brotherhood, but I don’t know that for a fact. Sounds like it though.) It’s reasonable to assume he would continue in that relationship if his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment or some shorter term. I think you and Rich would want to consider that, as well as the violent and criminal nature of such groups in prisons and out of prison in making your argument against his execution.

Just looked it up. Yes, he was with the Aryan Brotherhood in prison. Among other crimes, the Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison and has the power to order them on the outside as well.

Your turn, guys.
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I believe there are ways of making sure that criminals behind bars do not continue their crimes short of executing them. I also don’t believe in executing someone for the potential crimes they may commit. I have no doubt that Mr. Brewer is a criminal deserving of incarceration and that he has committed evil in his time, but I don’t understand why I have to condone evil against him in order to pass judgement on his evil.
 
anp1215 said:
abcnews.go.com/US/troy-davis-execution-delayed-supreme-court-decision/story?id=14571862

Troy Davis’ execution was delayed tonight as the Supreme Court weighed arguments by Davis’ legal team and the state of Georgia over whether he deserves a stay.

At 7:05 p.m., five minutes after his scheduled death, Davis’ supporters erupted in cheers, hugs and tears outside the jail in Jackson, Ga., as supporters believed Davis had been saved from the death penalty. But Davis was granted only a temporary reprieve as the Supreme Court considers the decision.

The warrant for Davis’ execution is valid until Sept. 28. The Georgia Resource Center, part of Davis’ legal defense team, said it was unsure how long the delay would last.

Davis was convicted of the 1989 murder of Savannah, Ga., policeman Mark MacPhail, and had his execution stayed four times over the course of his 22 years on death row, but multiple legal appeals during that time failed to prove his innocence.

Public support grew for Davis based on the recanted testimony of seven witnesses from his trial and the possible confession of another suspect, which his defense team claimed cast too much doubt on Davis’ guilt to follow through with an execution.
Click to expand...
I used to be pro death penalty . Being a pro life activist praying outside the clinic I was posed a question :" How can you people be pro life in this way if you are not in putting people to death by death penalty ? I though to myself this is a good question . How can I be pro life and anti abortion if I support the death penalty ? I changed my view and am against the death penalty. PRO LIFE ALL THE WAY . I believe that many of us are hippocrites if they support the death penalty but at the same time hold anti abortion signs .
 
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