Trump calls out Biden on religion

[farronwolf]

farronwolf:

Yet, many Catholics, and even the Church herself is kind of waffly on the Sacrament of marriage .

Please elaborate further.

This topic could be an entire thread or weeks long evenings of discussion.

In the Church:

Baptism, permanent, for life as long as it meets conditions, regardless of faith one is baptized in.

Confirmation, permanent for life.

Holy Orders, permanent, even if a priest is laicized he is still a priest although not permitted to practice, sacraments are still valid if he follows the norms of the Church. Fault falls with priest, not with recipient of the sacrament.

Marriage, not so permanent even though the vows say it is, and the participants went through marriage prep and was approved by a priest. Can happen multiple times even within the Church if the Church dictates that the marriage which once was valid, now is invalid, but then the next one is going to be valid.

In the past several decades this has become all to common practice within the Church.

Like I said, this topic can be a very, very lengthy one regarding the sacrament of marriage and what the Church will allow, won’t allow, will allow under some circumstances ect.

 

[RhodesianSon]

our current POTUS is using EOs as his way to rule

A habit he continued from his two predecessors.

 

[TheLittleLady]

and if nothing else, be able to shame all of the other pro-choice Catholics? Possibly shame a few of them into following suit?

Where are we taught to shame our fellow Catholics? Where did Christ say "let you so shame others that they see your works and glorify your Father in heaven’s?

Shame as evangelization is not a directive.

But the disconnect between Biden’s professed faith, and his public action, are indeed his Achilles’ heel, and Trump would be a fool not to work it for all it’s worth. And Trump could always call in Catholic advisers to help him get the argument right. I hope he does.

Then by the same token, Mr Trump’s opponents ought make hay of his public sins, flaws and disconnects.

This.is not what will heal our land.

We need respect and civility. As this is a secular office in a secular country, the founding fathers took care there is no religious test for office.

 

[Naga]

Can happen multiple times even within the Church if the Church dictates that the marriage which once was valid, now is invalid, but then the next one is going to be valid.

I believe an important thing to remember is that marriages are PRESUMED valid. A declaration of nullify doesn’t make a valid marriage invalid. It merely establishes that an impediment made it impossible to receive the sacrament validly, thus the marriage was invalid from the beginning.

Regardless, I agree with you that it is happening far too often nowadays. I believe the problem is a lack of proper formation in the faith, thus leading to a mistaken notion of what marriage is.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Where has Trump used executive orders? Obama who had the phone and pen bypassed the protocol more than a few times to get his agenda in place.ACA for one,with the help of a John Roberts who engaged in some Olympic worthy mental gymnastics to put in to law.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Marriage, not so permanent even though the vows say it is, and the participants went through marriage prep and was approved by a priest. Can happen multiple times even within the Church if the Church dictates that the marriage which once was valid, now is invalid, but then the next one is going to be valid.

Do start a new topic. Seems there is some serious misunderstanding on the lifelong permanance of valid marriage. The Church cannot invalidate a valid marriage.

 

[TheLittleLady]

List of United States federal executive orders - Wikipedia

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Marriage, not so permanent even though the vows say it is, and the participants went through marriage prep and was approved by a priest. Can happen multiple times even within the Church if the Church dictates that the marriage which once was valid, now is invalid, but then the next one is going to be valid.

I agree. Let’s say 25 percent of all Catholic marriages fail. In what other form of human endeavor, let alone religion, would it be tolerable to have a 25 percent failure rate? What business would stay open for very long, if 25 percent of its products or services didn’t work right? Anyone ever hear of TQM or Six Sigma?

You could well make the case that it is a failure of quality control on the front end. This said, matrimony is the only sacrament that even barely catechized people, as long as they are baptized, can validly confer upon each other. I think a case could be made as well, to have a kind of “RCIA for marriage”, with various phases, scrutinies, and so on — something far beyond pre-Cana, more like a “novitiate” for those contemplating marriage. Try to tease out problem areas, blind spots, and maybe, just maybe, get some couples to see that it’s not such a good idea for them to marry each other after all, if there’s a problem that just won’t go away. Better never to attempt the sacrament in the first place, than to confect it, and have things fall apart.

HomeschoolDad:

and if nothing else, be able to shame all of the other pro-choice Catholics? Possibly shame a few of them into following suit?

Where are we taught to shame our fellow Catholics? Where did Christ say "let you so shame others that they see your works and glorify your Father in heaven’s?

Shame as evangelization is not a directive.

It’s not evangelization, it’s saving unborn lives. And there is such a thing as a person needing to be put in bad conscience, put under conviction, even if shame is what it takes to do that. Some people need to have cognitive dissonance stoked within them from outside.

I’d rather be shamed into repentance and conversion, than to lose my soul with my pride intact.

HomeschoolDad:

But the disconnect between Biden’s professed faith, and his public action, are indeed his Achilles’ heel, and Trump would be a fool not to work it for all it’s worth. And Trump could always call in Catholic advisers to help him get the argument right. I hope he does.

Then by the same token, Mr Trump’s opponents ought make hay of his public sins, flaws and disconnects.

He does an exquisite job of making that hay all by himself.

 

[buffalo]

Covers a lot - worth a watch

 

[TheLittleLady]

And there is such a thing as a person needing to be put in bad conscience, put under conviction,

That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

We need to stick to our job description, be salt and life, love our enemies, do good for those we hate.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Covers a lot - worth a watch

Yaaaahhhh! LifeSite News!

Feh! Drink your own poison!

… just kidding, sarcasm alert. I assess facts and arguments on their own merits, not on where they come from. I read things from all across the spectrum that would make your hair curl (assuming it’s not curly already), then make up my own mind.

I’ll take a look at this.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Anyone ever hear of TQM or Six Sigma?

Yep.
Sacraments and marriage are not business programs.

People are broken.

More than 25 percent of those baptized commit mortal sin. We don’t consider that a failure of baptism.

Anyway, another thread seems best for this tooic

 

[buffalo]

I’ll take a look at this.

Near the end Fr Frank makes some good points…

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

And there is such a thing as a person needing to be put in bad conscience, put under conviction,

That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

We need to stick to our job description, be salt and life, love our enemies, do good for those we hate.

I love your posts, but I respectfully come at this from another angle.

Forcing someone to come to grips with their own sin and hypocrisy, even if it means frustrating them, embarrassing them, or making them deeply uncomfortable, can be a great act of charity. I would be very grateful — even if I might bitterly resist it at the outset — if I were on the wrong path in life, and someone forced me to take a good look at myself, and see my evil for what it is, for the very first time. To quote Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket (the video obviously cannot be shared here), “you will not like me, but the more you hate me, the more you will learn”. Some people need to be dealt with on that level. On a purely secular level, I had a professor in college who publicly castigated me for my lack of social justice awareness — and he was right. I couldn’t stand that guy for years afterwards. But here I am, almost 40 years later, and time and again, I have to admit, he had a point. I have a very good feeling towards him on account of it. But maybe that’s just me. Here decades later, my son whom I’m homeschooling is the beneficiary of lessons I resisted when I was first taught them.

HomeschoolDad:

Anyone ever hear of TQM or Six Sigma?

Yep.
Sacraments and marriage are not business programs.

People are broken.

More than 25 percent of those baptized commit mortal sin. We don’t consider that a failure of baptism.

Anyway, another thread seems best for this tooic

Some people may be too broken to confect the sacrament of matrimony, just as some men should not become priests, even if they want to. And we don’t seek to declare people’s baptisms invalid because they fall into mortal sin. Respectfully, I see this as apples and oranges.

I agree, this thread is segueing into something that would well be advised to become its own thread.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Hear hear!

If Biden does get elected — and let’s face reality, he probably will be — our task will be then to envelope him mightily in prayer, penance, fasting, rosaries, Masses, and everything else in the Catholic quiver. Put on the heat in all ways and don’t let up. No lesser sage than Saul Alinsky reminds us that this is the way you get things done. Remember that, if elected, he will be the first Catholic president since JFK, and let’s focus on that. Never give up.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Yes, and he had some pretty effective tactics. Some were immoral and some were morally neutral. Smart guy, and people-smart on top of that, in a big way. His play book is not complicated.

 

[Hodos]

You have a point. No, he’s not particularly scripturally literate, as you put it. “Personal conduct speaking volumes”, though, is simply a sin problem. We all have it, just different sins. I know I have a history of it. But the disconnect between Biden’s professed faith, and his public action, are indeed his Achilles’ heel, and Trump would be a fool not to work it for all it’s worth. And Trump could always call in Catholic advisers to help him get the argument right. I hope he does.

Yes, but here is the issue. I don’t think Trump could adequately articulate the articles of faith upon which he would hold Biden accountable, and Biden would be right to say that many of Trump’s actions are no more in concert with his professed faith either. Last, but not least, the Office of the President is not a Christian position. It is a secular position. While I agree that the President should uphold Christian values, not all Americans believe that this is so, or can agree on what those values should be. What we can agree with is the social contract we all agreed upon in the Constitution, and particularly in the Bill of Rights. Trump can make a very clear case that he strongly supports the First Amendment right of Freedom of Religion to include Free Exercise without drawing criticism upon himself. He can do the same to defend his pro-life stances by appealing to the Declaration of Independence which states that the government exists to protect life, and with the Vth Amendment which states that no one shall be deprived or life or liberty without due process. These are principles that every American should be able to agree with regardless of religious persuasion, and I think Trump would be wise to use that to his advantage. If it is a contest of character, both of these guys come off looking bad, and it helps neither side.

 

[F_Marturana]

yes, those are horrible things,

But those things happened because of this administration.

Not ending abortion. Those things are evil. We can’t accept evil things to allow something good.

Each child stolen from their parent had and has dignity.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Yes, but here is the issue. I don’t think Trump could adequately articulate the articles of faith upon which he would hold Biden accountable, and Biden would be right to say that many of Trump’s actions are no more in concert with his professed faith either.

As I said, he needs experts to help him with this. Maybe a little one-on-one with Archbishop Vigano via Skype? I would say Father Frank Pavone, but lately, he’s been ordered not to do political consulting anymore, and being the obedient priest he should be, he’s ceased doing that. There are others. If I were a bishop, and had a priest who could help Trump, I’d say go ahead, keep it on the down low, just educate the man and get him up to speed. Doesn’t have to be some big production, again, there is Skype, FaceTime, and similar programs, both for discretion and for social distancing.

 

[Hodos]

As I said, he needs experts to help him with this. Maybe a little one-on-one with Archbishop Vigano via Skype? I would say Father Frank Pavone, but lately, he’s been ordered not to do political consulting anymore, and being the obedient priest he should be, he’s ceased doing that. There are others. If I were a bishop, and had a priest who could help Trump, I’d say go ahead, keep it on the down low, just educate the man and get him up to speed. Doesn’t have to be some big production, again, there is Skype, FaceTime, and similar programs, both for discretion and for social distancing.

Its Trump man. No amount of tutoring from anyone is going to change him. And quite frankly, if you really want to look at how it should work, he should be a member of a local parish, under the leadership of a local pastor or chaplain, if he is even inclined to do so (maybe he is, maybe he isn’t, I am not aware of him being involved in any parish). The unfortunate thing is that his chaplain is a whacko whose Christianity is suspect to begin with (Paula White). So, it just ain’t gonna happen. Let him stick to his strong points, he has defended the Constitution, which is his job description anyway. Trump isn’t a pastor, it isn’t his job to be one. Let the Church proclaim God’s word, let Trump do his job and defend their right to do so.