Trump calls out Biden on religion

[HomeschoolDad]

To be frank, the last two presidential election cycles have produced weak and problematic candidates and many (most?) of us had to just hold our noses and vote for one.

That’s exactly what we’ve had the last two cycles. Putting aside her stance on abortion, Hillary was an awesomely qualified candidate, but she had a people problem and a likeability problem (neither of which her husband shared). This needn’t have been a problem if a college of electors chose the president. When you’re appealing to the masses in a binary choice, though, it’s a big issue.

 

[Freddy]

NevermoreLenore:

To be frank, the last two presidential election cycles have produced weak and problematic candidates and many (most?) of us had to just hold our noses and vote for one.

That’s exactly what we’ve had the last two cycles. Putting aside her stance on abortion, Hillary was an awesomely qualified candidate, but she had a people problem and a likeability problem (neither of which her husband shared). This needn’t have been a problem if a college of electors chose the president. When you’re appealing to the masses in a binary choice, though, it’s a big issue.

It seems like you agree with me to a certain degree. That the system is broken.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This is inaccurate.

Please, link me to one executive order or passed legislation by the Trump.administration that does not contain any exceptions, with no loopholes. Just one.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Agree. With a single Executive Order he could ban Plan B.

What has POTUS done to end IVF?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

NevermoreLenore:

To be frank, the last two presidential election cycles have produced weak and problematic candidates and many (most?) of us had to just hold our noses and vote for one.

That’s exactly what we’ve had the last two cycles. Putting aside her stance on abortion, Hillary was an awesomely qualified candidate, but she had a people problem and a likeability problem (neither of which her husband shared). This needn’t have been a problem if a college of electors chose the president. When you’re appealing to the masses in a binary choice, though, it’s a big issue.

It seems like you agree with me to a certain degree. That the system is broken.

It’s not “broken” so much as it is being used in a way that it was not intended to be used, “trying to fit a square peg in a round hole”. The Senate, likewise, was intended to be appointed by the various states, not popularly elected. The House was the popularly elected body. The presumption was that the states were sovereign over all things, aside from those rights and prerogatives that they signed over to the new federal government. It was more akin to the EU.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Agree. With a single Executive Order he could ban Plan B.

What has POTUS done to end IVF?

Yes, and you would have rioting in the streets. Oh, wait…

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yup. Mr Trump is a populist. He is going to say what people want to hear and his team bets that the supporters will not really dig deep.

For example, people don’t take the time to actually read the Mexico City Policy and learn all of the exemptions in it.

 

[Jeanne_S]

There’s some mental gymnastics …

 

[HomeschoolDad]

So I didn’t read the entire thread, but get where the two camps are coming in. What I get from this is.

If you claim to be Catholic and don’t strictly adhere to every teaching of the Church, you should be called out and put on public display and be made to explain why you disagree or go against Church teaching as a public official.

Yet:

If you are not Catholic, but claim to be christian, you don’t have to explain any of your personal actions which clearly go against most everything that Christianity or the Catholic Church teaches or stands for, as long as you are mostly anti abortion.

Yes, Catholics are called to a higher standard. We have a teaching magisterium and we are supposed to “know better”. Even non-Catholics are able to remind us of that. We realize that non-Catholic Christians (i.e., Protestants) interpret the Bible — their sole rule of faith — so many different ways, that there are conceivably as many Protestant churches as there are Protestants. They have no overriding authority to settle disputes. If the Bible is that authority, then why do different people read it different ways? If the Holy Spirit is guiding them, then why does the Holy Spirit tell one person, or one denomination, one thing, and then He tells another person or denomination something entirely different? Go for a ride in the country about 10 or 15 miles, take down the name of every church you pass, then do some research to see who believes what, and how they differ. The point should be clear.

Because someone is not Catholic we give them a pass. I guess all the Catholics who have ever used birth control, had abortions, gotten divorced and remarried, received communion when not in a state of grace, or done any list of things that goes against the teachings of the Church should simply stop claiming to be Catholic.

Sin is one thing. We are all sinners. It is dissent from the teaching Church that is the problem, living your life in the public forum in such a manner, and saying such things, that tell the world in effect, “the Church is wrong and I am right”.

It would be so refreshing, to hear Joe Biden say something like “yes, I know that what the Church teaches is true, I believe in it, and I’ve never caused anyone to have an abortion — but I know that unless I am willing to enact laws, and appoint judges, who will uphold the legal right of a woman to murder her unborn child, I can’t get elected! — I am only doing what I have to do, to get elected in the first place”, then I could at least give him points for being honest.

 

[arvo]

It would be so refreshing, to hear Joe Biden say something like “yes, I know … I can’t get elected! — I am only doing what I have to do, to get elected in the first place” , then I could at least give him points for being honest.

I was born in the family of workers, yet I was trying to move upwards through my life. Partially I succeeded, partially not. Actually - it is not that hard to move into circles of MPs, ministers, entrepreneurs, scientists if you have ideas and are necessity to do this. It is not that hard to move into groups that generates ideas and takes decisions, or at least moves them through parliament and government or non-governmental bodies.

But to do this I had to have to learn a lot about emotional intelligence, about manners, about mental models and I had to learn and understand all this consciously because I had not that inbred breeding from my family (and I still need to learn a lot! There is still levels to catch). There are lot of rules and manners, but one of the - you are not required to be explicit about your ideas, intentions, feelings, you are not required to go graphic and blunt. It simply does not pay off. The market rewards more complex behavior.

Of course, there will be fringes who yearn for other behavior - but is it profitable to act towards them?

 

[F_Marturana]

Then it would be challenged in the courts.

And I’m not even sure that it would get to the Supreme Court. Plan B is just a high dose oral contraceptive. Doctors could still prescribe a pill pack, and a combination of the pills would be the same.

Or did you mean RU-486?

My understanding that the main goal to vote for the Republican candidate is to get the correct mix on the Supreme Court, that they eventually will overturn Roe. Oddly the same ones that would theoretically overturn Roe are the ones that have voted for Federal death penalty cases to continue.

So. As long as that’s the goal, and nothing else matters. Kids stolen from their parents? We tolerate that because trump is prolife. Torture? We don’t really know what torture is, we tolerate it because trump is prolife. The betrayal of the Kurds? Again we tolerate it because Trump is prolife.

Eventually he’ll get the Supreme Court mix right. Because of that we tolerate 150,000 dead and still no end insight.

Because he might be antiabortion.

So was Ceacescu of Romania.

 

[farronwolf]

I am only doing what I have to do, to get elected in the first place” , then I could at least give him points for being honest.

So, do we detract points for being dishonest? How does the scale tip if that is the measure?

This shouldn’t be twisted into a protestant debate and the nuances of religion. A good christian, whether Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, whatever their religion, acts a certain way, as Christ has called us to act. To love our neighbors as ourselves.

If one claims to be a christian, and exhibits zero christian behavior, there is no room for any passes simply because they are not Catholic.

I know people would love for Biden to do this or that, well guess whatm we don’t get to dictate what other Catholics do. That is between them and God. I would love for many Catholics to do certain things as well, but they don’t.

Lets just pick my greatest pet peeves, the Sacrament of Marriage. When I took my vows, it was not incumbent on my wife keeping her vows. I promised to love and cherish, in good and bad and everything till death do us part. Not as long as she was doing the same. I told God that I would do those things, period. The same as other Catholics. This is something that must be done every single day for the rest of my or her life, as I told God I would do. Even if my wife decides to break her vows, I am still obligated to what I told God I would do. I get no pass.

Yet, many Catholics, and even the Church herself is kind of waffly on the Sacrament of marriage.

No Trump isn’t Catholic, and I don’t know what his marriage vows were in particular but my guess is that all of them had somewhat similar language in them. Yet folks are very, very quick to point out that he isn’t Catholic so we can’t judge him based on what we believe. Wrong. If someone makes a promise, and they fail to fulfill that promise they have broken their word. No ifs and or buts about it. They get no pass because they aren’t Catholic. If they claim to be christian, there is no lower standard that we should allow them to live by.

Many may disagree with this, that is their call.

 

[dscath]

We know what he thinks about Biden’s commitment to religion. I wonder if he thinks this about his own commitment? Just sayin!
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[VonDerTann]

So, just so we’re clear: are you saying that you’re not pro-life unless…what?

You sign an executive order, banning…what? Contraception?

To be “pro-life,” must I never agree to ever allow abortions under any circumstances (even say ectopic pregnancies)?

(And are you troubled that that US constitution contains no express provisions for executive orders, at all?And that even on a good day such orders can’t be used willy-nilly, i.e. The executive must have the power to begin with)?

I would respectfully ask you to consider that your definition of pro-life is precisely as I mentioned: you define it so narrowly that essentially no one is pro-life.

One thing is clear: trump is a lot more pro-life than is Joe Biden.

 

[Hodos]

Tell you the truth, I think Trump is better served not going there. He is not particularly scripturally literate, and his personal conduct speaks volumes of this. He is better served showing how he has protected freedom of religion as compared to the hostile policy stances taken by the Democrats in general, and Biden in particular.

 

[farronwolf]

Not really following you.

Do you hold Catholic politicians to a higher standard than non Catholic politicians? If so why?

As far a separating political and religious beliefs, there are times that one must actually do that as a citizen and a politician.

For example, several years ago, our parish started it’s first Spanish Masses. There was some turmoil in the parish over it. Some took it to mean that the parish was encouraging illegal immigration, or that if they are in this country they should be able to speak English.

I called nonsense on their arguments. God could care less what language you pray to him in, and Catholics praying to God in English came well after many other languages. As a Catholic, we should encourage people coming from a country which is predominantly Catholic to stay in their faith, and as a Church we should do what we can to ensure they do so. Many protestant churches were catering to the hispanics and they were leaving the Catholic faith.

A Catholic politician is elected to represent all the people of his city, county, district, state, nation, whatever level he/she is elected at. Them being Catholic or some other religion doesn’t mean they just represent the people of their religion. As an elected official they have an obligation based on the oath of office to do so according to the law. So if the law says that two men have equal rights to be married as a man and a woman and enjoy the same benefits, that is what the oath of office requires them to adhere to. They don’t have to agree with the law, but they must uphold the law equally. If they can’t, they don’t need to be in office because they are lying when they take the oath. There is no caveat in an oath of office that says unless it goes against my religion, since there is a separation of church and state.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

My understanding that the main goal to vote for the Republican candidate is to get the correct mix on the Supreme Court, that they eventually will overturn Roe. Oddly the same ones that would theoretically overturn Roe are the ones that have voted for Federal death penalty cases to continue.

So. As long as that’s the goal, and nothing else matters. Kids stolen from their parents? We tolerate that because trump is prolife. Torture? We don’t really know what torture is, we tolerate it because trump is prolife. The betrayal of the Kurds? Again we tolerate it because Trump is prolife.

Eventually he’ll get the Supreme Court mix right. Because of that we tolerate 150,000 dead and still no end insight.

Because he might be antiabortion.

So was Ceacescu of Romania.

Yes, that is true. If I am understanding correctly, though, it is not because Ceaucescu believed abortion was murder — he just wanted there to be more Romanians. It worked for a while.

You are correct, that is the reason we need to have four more years of Republican presidency, and at least four more years of Republican control of the Senate. I’m not optimistic that Roe v Wade can ever be overturned — conservative justices, in the confirmation process, are forced to acknowledge RVW as “settled law”, just as public servants in the Soviet bloc were forced to affirm socialism. It’s either that, or don’t get confirmed.

All of the other things you cite, families being separated, torture, the betrayal of the Kurds, yes, those are horrible things, but we are basically held hostage by the ghost of a chance that some abortions will be prevented. That’s just how it is. I can hold my nose over a lot of things, if it means saving babies.

If one claims to be a christian, and exhibits zero christian behavior, there is no room for any passes simply because they are not Catholic.

I’m not sure Trump comprehends what “being a Christian” even is. He does have the apparently good example of his mother, of whose faith he speaks fondly, and on the last day, that may be what will save him. We are always called upon to “give people passes” for being ignorant — look at how gently we approach the subject of contraception, for instance, because so many Catholics do it, and supposedly they don’t know any better, supposedly they don’t comprehend, there are so many reasons they might be using it, they go ahead and receive communion, and we’re considered judgmental villains if we object.

Trump would be entirely within his rights to say “being a Christian means different things to different people, how dare you judge me? — but at least I don’t hear my Church telling me that abortion is murder, profess to accept the religion that this Church teaches, and go ahead and do everything imaginable to enable what my Church tells me is murder”.

Yet, many Catholics, and even the Church herself is kind of waffly on the Sacrament of marriage.

Please elaborate further.

 

[RhodesianSon]

It’s one thing for a catholic to publicly claim to be catholic, and uphold the churches teachings publicly but still having private failures to follow all the teachings of the Church and God perfectly. It is quite another publicly dissent from Church teaching and push policies that promote programs and actions contrary to Church teaching.

Trump isn’t catholic. He’s not even a particularly good person, but he’s never claimed to hold any particular moral ideology so he can’t be judged for failing to live up to one.

Biden claims his faith is the bedrock of who he is yet supports abortion. That is incongruent.

Trump is clearly saying this for political gain, and it’s a good move on his part to hold his opponent to a self imposed standard that he himself doesn’t have.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

No Trump isn’t Catholic, and I don’t know what his marriage vows were in particular but my guess is that all of them had somewhat similar language in them. Yet folks are very, very quick to point out that he isn’t Catholic so we can’t judge him based on what we believe. Wrong. If someone makes a promise, and they fail to fulfill that promise they have broken their word. No ifs and or buts about it. They get no pass because they aren’t Catholic. If they claim to be christian, there is no lower standard that we should allow them to live by.

He hasn’t done anything that legions of lesser-known Christians, both Catholics and non-Catholics, haven’t done. Many people have a problem understanding the concept of “permanent vows no matter what”.

Here, too, nothing would make me happier. Can you imagine how powerful it would be, for a formerly pro-choice Catholic to have a change of heart, and if nothing else, be able to shame all of the other pro-choice Catholics? Possibly shame a few of them into following suit?

Tell you the truth, I think Trump is better served not going there. He is not particularly scripturally literate, and his personal conduct speaks volumes of this. He is better served showing how he has protected freedom of religion as compared to the hostile policy stances taken by the Democrats in general, and Biden in particular.

You have a point. No, he’s not particularly scripturally literate, as you put it. “Personal conduct speaking volumes”, though, is simply a sin problem. We all have it, just different sins. I know I have a history of it. But the disconnect between Biden’s professed faith, and his public action, are indeed his Achilles’ heel, and Trump would be a fool not to work it for all it’s worth. And Trump could always call in Catholic advisers to help him get the argument right. I hope he does.

Trump isn’t catholic. He’s not even a particularly good person, but he’s never claimed to hold any particular moral ideology so he can’t be judged for failing to live up to one.

Biden claims his faith is the bedrock of who he is yet supports abortion. That is incongruent.

Trump is clearly saying this for political gain, and it’s a good move on his part to hold his opponent to a self imposed standard that he himself doesn’t have.

You brilliantly sum up this entire scenario. Thank you.

 

[TheLittleLady]

My definition is that of Holy Mother Church. From conception til natural death. Any direct abortion is wrong.

Ectopic pregnancy may be resolved without direct abortion.

The. Constitution and Executive Orders is not the meat of this discussion, however, our current POTUS is using EOs as his way to rule. I think people ought to learn more about them, but, his constituents seem to be tickled with them.