Trump driving migrant debate among GOP field

[Path_Finder]

Go for it.

Hey, as long as you are not flirting (knowingly or unknowingly) with neo-fascism, it’s all good from where I stand.

So, Americans who do not want more immigration are Neo-Fascists because the USA is already

Number one in the world per allowing immigrants, they are 14.7% of the population (though percentagewise, other countries may be ahead of us like Saudi Arabia):

1. United States of America

Immigrants: 45.8 million
Pct of population: 14.3%
GDP (PPP) per capita 2012: $49,922
Gov’t immigration goals: Maintain

usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/28/countries-with-most-immigrants/2886783/

.

Okay, just so we put such views of other Americans in perspective.

 

[FollowChrist34]

So, Americans who do not want more immigration are Neo-Fascists because the USA is already

Number one in the world per allowing immigrants, they are 14.7% of the population (though percentagewise, other countries may be ahead of us like Saudi Arabia):
.

Okay, just so we put such views of other Americans in perspective.

Were your ancestors North American?

“Germany for the Germans, foreigners out!”
spiegel.de/international/germany/new-right-wing-alliance-of-neo-nazis-and-hooligans-appears-in-germany-a-1000953-2.html

 

[Path_Finder]

Were your ancestors North American?

“Germany for the Germans, foreigners out!”
spiegel.de/international/germany/new-right-wing-alliance-of-neo-nazis-and-hooligans-appears-in-germany-a-1000953-2.html

Do you not like African-Americans? Americans to get jobs?

Does it bother you that Americans like Kate Steinle are killed by Illegal Aliens? How about the woman, a veteran who was raped and murdered in California by illegals?

An illegal immigrant from Mexico accused of murder in the rape and torture death of a California Air Force veteran entered a not-guilty plea Thursday in a Santa Maria courtroom.

Victor Aureliano Martinez, 29, who is here illegally and had racked up several arrests and jail time before the July 24 attack on Marilyn Pharis, 64, entered the plea i a brief appearance. He’ll be back in court Sept. 17 for the purpose of setting a preliminary hearing, where a judge decides whether there’s enough evidence to hold a trial.

That same day, the other man in custody over the killing, Jose Fernando Villagomez, 20, who did not enter a plea, will be back in court to do so.

foxnews.com/us/2015/08/13/illegal-immigrant-pleads-not-guilty-in-rape-fatal-hammer-attack-on-air-force/

Speaking about “Native Americans” then, how about those people who were killed for being Good Samaritans, these stories go on for quite a bit.

foxnews.com/us/2015/07/31/man-killed-montana-good-samaritans-because-daughter-laughed-at-him-say-cops/

An 18-year-old man executed a Native American couple who stopped to help him on a Montana roadside Wednesday because their daughter “laughed” at him, an FBI agent said in court Thursday.

Jason Shane, 51, and Tana Shane, 47, died Wednesday following the shooting on an Indian reservation in the small town of Pryor, and their daughter, 26-year-old Jorah Shane, was shot in the back when she tried to run away, the woman’s aunt, Ada Shane, told The Associated Press. Jesus Deniz, also known as Jesus Deniz Mendoza, of Worland, Wyo., told federal investigators he shot the three, who had stopped to help him because Jorah Shane laughed at him.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Do you not like African-Americans? Americans to get jobs?

Does it bother you that Americans like Kate Steinle are killed by Illegal Aliens? How about the woman, a veteran who was raped and murdered in California by illegals?

I don’t oppose deporting felons. I don’t oppose effective immigration reform.

I oppose this nonsense about deporting 11 million people and especially the hateful rhetoric this suggestion is unleashing about “foreigners”. Especially in people who call themselves Catholic or American. In a country of immigrants. I am willing to bet not a single person on this thread can fully trace his ancestors to Native American roots.

 

[Monkey1976]

Were your ancestors North American?

How far back does one have to go to be considered “North American”? My own ancestors were among the first Europeans to establish colonies on the east coast of what would become the United States, so I’ve got roots here some 400 years deep. But I’m just as much an American as those who take their oaths of citizenship today.

And there’s the rub - yes, every non-Amerind in the US is an “immigrant” at some point, but the difference is that most people’s ancestors followed the laws established for immigrating here. Today, why should someone who wants to immigrate to the US go through all the time and trouble of applying for citizenship when they can just hop the border? It’s a slap in the face to everyone who did immigrate legally.

If we want to go far enough back, every living human has “North American” ancestors - Purgatorius was a genus of small, squirrel-like mammals which were the ancestors of all primates some 66 million years ago, and it lived in what is now Montana.

 

[Path_Finder]

I don’t oppose deporting felons. I don’t oppose effective immigration reform.

I oppose this nonsense about deporting 11 million people and especially the hateful rhetoric this suggestion is unleashing about “foreigners”. Especially in people who call themselves Catholic or American. In a country of immigrants. I am willing to bet not a single person on this thread can fully trace his ancestors to Native American roots.

How many innocent Americans should die, in car accidents or whatever incident by someone who is not in this country legally? That seems hateful to me.

Oh, afterwards, we may find out they are a felon? I am sure there are cases where there is no criminal record to speak of.

 

[FollowChrist34]

How far back does one have to go to be considered “North American”? My own ancestors were among the first Europeans to establish colonies on the east coast of what would become the United States, so I’ve got roots here some 400 years deep. But I’m just as much an American as those who take their oaths of citizenship today.

If we want to go far enough back, every living human has “North American” ancestors - Purgatorius was a genus of small, squirrel-like mammals which were the ancestors of all primates some 66 million years ago, and it lived in what is now Montana.

But wait, that would include Mexicans and Irish, no?

How ironic, I have family from Montana, though they were from Europe. Montana for them was kind of a homecoming after all, long way about. I wonder how the Native Americans would feel about this argument. The ones on the reservations.

 

[FollowChrist34]

How many innocent Americans should die, in car accidents or whatever incident by someone who is not in this country legally? That seems hateful to me.

Oh, afterwards, we may find out they are a felon? I am sure there are cases where there is no criminal record to speak of.

I agree this is hateful. But then I think it is hateful when innocent Americans die in car accidents or whatever incident by someone who is in this country legally too. Oh, and perhaps I neglected to mention I don’t oppose deporting felons.

 

[Path_Finder]

11 million? Could be 30 million. That is obviously, about 3 times.

Former Mexican Ambassador: 30 Million Illegals Living in the US

Mexico’s former ambassador to the United States said Tuesday there are 30 million “undocumented immigrants” currently living in the United States, far more than the U.S. government’s claim of around 11 million.

“If you were to deport the 30 million undocumented immigrants in the United States, that’s going to cost you about $130 billion,” Arturo Sarukhan told MSNBC.

As Sarukhan continued to talk, a graphic flashed on the screen that said it would cost $137.5 billion to deport 11 million undocumented immigrants.

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com newsmax.com/Newsfront/former-mexico-ambassador-30/2015/08/18/id/670740/#ixzz3jI82BWRE

So we should maybe just be open-minded, not make the effort and who knows how many more come in? Is this our country? How about 60 million persons? Where does it end?

 

[Path_Finder]

I agree this is hateful. But then I think it is hateful when innocent Americans die in car accidents or whatever incident by someone who is in this country legally too. Oh, and perhaps I neglected to mention I don’t oppose deporting felons.

But we work to lower the death rate by drunk driving and now texting and being on the phone. Why bargain for more problems?

 

[Monkey1976]

Oh, afterwards, we may find out they are a felon? I am sure there are cases where there is no criminal record to speak of.

By definition, anyone who is in this country illegally is a felon. I don’t buy into the “undocumented immigrant” rhetoric - we have laws regulating border crossing and immigration, and they’re ignoring them. Apologists give the excuse that legal immigration is “too hard”. Should I be allowed to rob a bank because making $100,000 per day is “too hard”?

 

[FollowChrist34]

As Sanders is coalescing the socialist left, so is Trump coalescing the nationalist right. I predict this could well be the new Tea Party - nationalism - the US answer to the National Front.

What is fascinating is that though Sanders and Trump couldn’t be more different culturally, their programs overlap a great deal. “What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy,” Sanders said recently. “Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don’t believe in that.” Trump’s immigration paper states that “real immigration reform puts the needs of working people first — not wealthy globe-trotting donors.” Trump has said that there’s little daylight between them on the issue of trade, while Sanders has praised Trump’s favorable statements on single-payer health care. The establishments of both parties have proved pitifully inept in fending off their respective nationalist and socialist insurgencies. I suspect they’ll eventually succeed. But I also suspect this is not the end of the challenge, merely the beginning.

Read more at: nationalreview.com/article/422716/donald-trump-bernie-sanders-populism

 

[Path_Finder]

If one were to cast doubts as to the motives of others via being nativist then, let’s go the full way.

We want to help poor people, let’s go to Laos and Congo and Bangladesh and get the people. Let’s do it per capita income than just coming into our country via unsecured borders. There are people worse off.

 

[Path_Finder]

As Sanders is coalescing the socialist left, so is Trump coalescing the nationalist right. I predict this could well be the new Tea Party - nationalism - the US answer to the National Front.

Read more at: nationalreview.com/article/422716/donald-trump-bernie-sanders-populism

Hardly, you throw those terms around, at least Trump is sympathetic to families who have had family members murdered by those with no right to be in this country. Oh, the big bad national front.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Hardly, you throw those terms around, at least Trump is sympathetic to families who have had family members murdered by those with no right to be in this country. Oh, the big bad national front.

Perhaps I neglected to mention that I did not oppose deporting felons.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The question of what to do with illegals already here is a problem that vexes anyone that isn’t inclined, as President Obama and the Democrats are, to grant them amnesty and forget about it. Reasonable people can differ about possible solutions to the problem but there’s nothing reasonable or practical about a proposal that assumes the U.S. government is capable of capturing and deporting 11 million people plus the untold number of U.S. citizens to which they have given birth.

The notion that the American people will stomach such an exercise or pay what Politico estimates (probably conservatively) the $166 billion it would cost to pull off such a horrifying spectacle is a pure fantasy.

What needs to be emphasized here is that wherever you stand on birthright citizenship or mass deportations, so long as it is these ideas that Republicans are discussing (as Trump did last night with Bill O’Reilly on Fox News), then they are losing the debate about immigration and very likely the next presidential election. No one is going to be elected president on a platform of depriving people born in this country of citizenship no matter who their parents might be. Nor, despite the cheers Trump gets from his fans, will the American people ever countenance the kinds of intrusive measures and the huge expansion of the federal immigration bureaucracy and police powers that would be needed to pull off a mass deportation.

Let’s be clear. This isn’t a matter of appeasing a Hispanic vote that is probably locked up for the Democrats even if the GOP nominates a pro-amnesty Hispanic. It’s about derailing a productive discussion about real-world solutions to problems into an ideological trap that will only convince moderates and independents, and probably some conservatives as well, that the Republicans are not ready for prime time.

These are the same voters who are likely to agree with Republicans when they say any immigration reform must only come after the border is secured by reasonable measures rather than by reconstructing the Great Wall of China or perhaps the epic ice wall from “Game of Thrones” on the Rio Grande that will be paid for by Mexico in Trump’s dreams. These voters were horrified by the murder of Kate Steinle and support efforts by the Republicans to pass a “Kate’s Law” that would penalize Democrat-run cities that flout federal authority to the detriment of the rule of law and the safety of citizens. They want the border to be secured and are disturbed by Obama’s efforts to circumvent the constitution to grant amnesty. But they aren’t likely to applaud Trump’s effort to ignore settled law or throw out American-born kids.

The point is, contrary to the conventional wisdom of the liberal mainstream media, a conservative stance on illegal immigration is a political winner for Republicans so long as they stick to points on which they have a clear advantage. But when they follow Trump into circular debates about birthright citizenship or fantasize about throwing all illegals out, including citizens or children raised here, they are losing the voters they need to win back the presidency.

commentarymagazine.com/

 

[meltzerboy]

How many innocent Americans should die, in car accidents or whatever incident by someone who is not in this country legally? That seems hateful to me.

Oh, afterwards, we may find out they are a felon? I am sure there are cases where there is no criminal record to speak of.

The last statement sounds like Trump when he said “I assume some of them are good people,” which is reminiscent of the old saying “Some of my best friends are…” I would wager MOST of “them” are good people and do not commit any crimes.

If you want to protest illegal immigration, it might be better to do so on the basis of immigration law rather than the fact that SOME of them commit crimes, because if you use the latter argument, one can just as easily state that SOME legal immigrants also commit crimes, so maybe we should put a halt to all immigration. Of course the latter is likewise nonsense since some people already living in the U.S. for many years also commit crimes, so perhaps they too should be deported after serving time.

 

[anthony022071]

Uh, with you on some of this. I like the part about social justice being morality - has a nice ring. Doesn’t change my opinion that some bishops emphasize moral issues and ignore social justice ones. I agree with the spirit of your comments that some bishops overemphasize social justice concerns. I won’t speculate as to why. I fully agree this group can often downplay or sidestep critical moral issues. My ideal bishop would be a balance between these two groups.

If bishops teach the laity to be charitable to the poor and just in their dealings with people that work for them and strangers and to vote for politicians that are most in agreement with natural law morality, that is usually sufficient for social justice teaching.

The reason that some bishops emphasize personal morality over social justice matters ought to be clear. God gave us commandments that are aimed at us individually and he calls us to holiness and perfection. An essential part of holiness and perfection is chastity - purity with regard to the body. This is more important to our salvation and more pleasing to God than government policies that appear to be compassionate to the poor and immigrants and workers. The government does things in a mechanical,bureaucratic manner,and often with base motives,so there is little virtue or merit to the help it gives to people. And it does not add to our own virtue and merit. We will not be judged by how the government treated others, but how we treated others. We must obey God’s commandments regardless of whether we choose to concern ourselves with broad social justice matters and regardless of unjust social conditions.

Again, I agree with some of this - a nation has a right to protect its cultural identity, heritage and its people. But the US is a nation built on immigration and also one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. There is a place for immigration. All I am saying is that I want legal immigration, those individuals coming in first. Also I want immigration to come in waves that we can handle, so we can assimilate newcomers. I don’t want immigrants who retain their culture to the point of a separate identity. Figuring out what to do with 11 million people is a tall order. I don’t think sending them all back in boxes is the answer. Did Trump go to college - does anyone know? “Flooded with foreigners” is getting a little skinhead for my taste, a little National Front.

Many nations were built on immigration. But once a nation has been built up and become settled,then the people want to preserve what they are and what they have. There are limits to welcoming foreigners and tolerance of them. It depends on the degree of common identity and the age of the nation. America is very large and diverse and not old and has always been home to people different of different races. There is not much of a national identity and culture to protect,and the nation is not precious for its age. But millions of people still take offence at the flood of foreigners and the undermining of the country and states and towns,and that is a reality that Catholic clergymen will have to accept.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The last statement sounds like Trump when he said “I assume some of them are good people,” which is reminiscent of the old saying “Some of my best friends are…” I would wager MOST of “them” are good people and do not commit any crimes.

If you want to protest illegal immigration, it might be better to do so on the basis of immigration law rather than the fact that SOME of them commit crimes, because if you use the latter argument, one can just as easily state that SOME legal immigrants also commit crimes, so maybe we should put a halt to all immigration. Of course the latter is likewise nonsense since some people already living in the U.S. for many years also commit crimes, so perhaps they too should be deported after serving time.

Except, of course, that virtually all illegals who work here have committed the crime of fraud by producing forged documents of identity to employers, to banks, to officers of the law, and to others. Some produce false documents to medical providers, and I have seen that, to drivers’ license bureaus and I have seen that too. I recall being in the Dept of Revenue office to renew my license when the clerk suddenly got incensed and gave a Hispanic man his papers and told him to get out. When it was my turn, I asked her what the deal was. Apparently the man had bought a bad set of ID, none of which he could read, that included “his own” death certificate.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The last statement sounds like Trump when he said “I assume some of them are good people,” which is reminiscent of the old saying “Some of my best friends are…” I would wager MOST of “them” are good people and do not commit any crimes.

If you want to protest illegal immigration, it might be better to do so on the basis of immigration law rather than the fact that SOME of them commit crimes, because if you use the latter argument, one can just as easily state that SOME legal immigrants also commit crimes, so maybe we should put a halt to all immigration. Of course the latter is likewise nonsense since some people already living in the U.S. for many years also commit crimes, so perhaps they too should be deported after serving time.

I agree.

A certain political commentator has been filling her twitter feed with crimes committed by immigrants. I was amused when she mentioned a crime committed by a member of a reality show dealing with Gypsies in the US.

She hadn’t bothered to check that they are not a new immigrant group, but have been in the US since its founding. This particular group were of Romanichal Gypsies, they originated in England, and migrated to the US in the early 1800’s.