Trump driving migrant debate among GOP field

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Trump

driving migrant

GOP field …

I get it! :newidea: Trump is Simon Legree …

the migrant being driven is a slave …

… and the GOP field is the plantation and the scene of the crime. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

THIS headline writer may have a brilliant future ahead of him/her in the “field” of subliminal spin!
 
The question of what to do with illegals already here is a problem that vexes anyone that isn’t inclined, as President Obama and the Democrats are, to grant them amnesty and forget about it. Reasonable people can differ about possible solutions to the problem but there’s nothing reasonable or practical about a proposal that assumes the U.S. government is capable of capturing and deporting 11 million people
But is it really unreasonable or impractical? Illegal aliens I have known go back and forth to their home countries regularly. Some have no intention of staying permanently; they want to raise money to be “ahead of the Joneses” back home and intend to go home.

Such people will almost certainly “self deport” eventually. The problem arises when and if they decide to return, which many do.

I realize people will think this is an awful thing to say, but deporting most illegals is not like sending them to hell. Mexico, for example, is not a third world country, and has a lower unemployment rate than does the U.S. Wages there are about 1/3 what they are here, but so is the cost of living. The average Mexican wage in Mexico is greater than in ANY Eastern European country.

The real attraction for those who work here is not so awfully much the opportunity to make a living as it is to take advantage of the relative value of the dollar to their own currency. The ability to work for three times the pay, then spend it at 1/3 American prices is a very attractive proposition. The real question, at least for Mexicans, isn’t whether they make a living or not, but whether coming here gives them an advantage over their neighbors back home. One might compare it to an American oil worker who goes to Kuwait for a few years to make the “big bucks”, then comes back to the U.S. having out-earned oil workers who stayed here and buys a bigger house and has a better car that the “stay at homes” can. I maintain that many of the illegals aren’t coming here for “social justice”, but for the “social injustice” of acting illegally to obtain opportunities at the economic cost of American workers and the social cost to their own citizens back home.

Finally, one is aware that a foreigner cannot own land in Mexico or a controlling interest in any enterprise there. Why? It’s exactly because the Mexican government is far more aware of the relative value of currency than are most Americans. It takes advantage of the currency differential but will not allow any foreigners to do it.
 
Prayers for all of those Americans killed by illegal immigrants, there have been 3,000 such murders committed by illegal immigrants in Texas alone in the last several years and many other crimes.

:gopray:
I do think we don’t need sanctuary cities, and we don’t need illegals who are committing crimes allowed to be out on the streets, just as we don’t need American gangs shooting innocent people. This is not compassion for the poor or minorities to not punish these people with long jail sentences. And the Mexican government should take a stand putting those who are breaking our laws by murder, drugs, etc. in their own prisons.

In fact, a lot of this is Mexicos fault, and no one but Trump sees it. I’m not saying I agree with everything hr says, but I heard that to obtain a visa to come over here, you have to bribe officials to get one! No wonder then we have people crossing the border in great numbers.

And as far as the babies getting citizenship, it’s not fair for a Mexican mother about to give birth, crawling over the border to give birth here. Then many of them go back to Mexico and our school system must educate them as they’re “American citizens” even though they’re back in Tijuana. If a family comes here to live, and they have children then no, they shouldn’t be deported. But we do need better enforced stringent laws. If we need more officials at the border we should do it. Look at our neighboring county, Canada. To get through, you need documents and you seldom hear of people taking advantage of their immigration laws.

This isn’t new. Many immigrants in the early 20th century were turned back if they were ill or sometimes if they had no relatives here. So we need to have a fair way for immigrants to come here, but there needs to be laws barring unaccompanied children, drug cartels, etc. to protect our own country.
 
Unfortunately, I think in the days ahead, any sign of open support for Donald Trump is going to create alot of tension in certain areas of the country, as signs, stickers and buttons that read Trump, will be regarded as signs, stickers and buttons that read “I Hate Hispanics”.
 
But is it really unreasonable or impractical? Illegal aliens I have known go back and forth to their home countries regularly. Some have no intention of staying permanently; they want to raise money to be “ahead of the Joneses” back home and intend to go home.
Is it impractical to deport 11 million people? Yes, I would say so. The number of police and federal immigration officers needed to successfully deport 11 million people would be enormous, at a cost of very likely in the billions. How long do you think this would take to accomplish? 6 months? 30 years? I cannot think of any recent event in history to compare it to, can you? In a civilized nation? And this is from the wing of the party that wants to reduce government…
The American Action Forum, a conservative research organization, attempted to estimate the cost of deporting all of the country’s undocumented immigrants, while deporting new undocumented immigrants who arrive. Doing so would take 20 years and cost between $420 billion and $619 billion, the group concluded. The group also predicted that removing a large and important segment of the American workforce from the country would reduce the size of the economy by 5.7 percent after two decades.
Trump’s plan would triple the number of Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, but it does not discuss how to pay for the additional jail beds that would be necessary if federal agents were to arrest three times as many undocumented immigrants. Nor does it discuss the administrative costs that would come with processing their cases.
“You need prosecuting attorneys, and you need enough judges and magistrates,” said Thad Bingel, who served as the chief of staff of Customs and Border Protection in the Bush administration.
washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/08/17/understanding-trumps-plan-to-end-citizenship-for-undocumented–immigrants-kids/
Mexicans are approximately 57-62% percent of all illegal immigrants.
Country / Raw number / Percent of total
Mexico 6,650,000 62%
El Salvador 530,000 5%
Guatemala 480,000 4%
Honduras 320,000 3%
Philippines 270,000
India 200,000 2%
Korea 200,000 2%
Ecuador 170,000 2%
Brazil 150,000 1%
China 120,000 1%
Other 1,650,000 15%
According to the Migration Policy Institute, about 87 percent of the United States’ undocumented immigrants — some 10 million people — have no serious criminal record. If those turn out to qualify as Mr. Trump’s “good ones,” what purpose would be served by deporting them only to “bring them back rapidly”? washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trumps-immigration-plan-would-wreck-havoc-on-us-society/2015/08/17/19703368-451d-11e5-8ab4-c73967a143d3_story.html
Do you have documentation or statistics for this below comment - I only ask because I don’t see a vast majority of these folks headed back any time soon.
The real attraction for those who work here is not so awfully much the opportunity to make a living as it is to take advantage of the relative value of the dollar to their own currency. The ability to work for three times the pay, then spend it at 1/3 American prices is a very attractive proposition. The real question, at least for Mexicans, isn’t whether they make a living or not, but whether coming here gives them an advantage over their neighbors back home. One might compare it to an American oil worker who goes to Kuwait for a few years to make the “big bucks”, then comes back to the U.S. having out-earned oil workers who stayed here and buys a bigger house and has a better car that the “stay at homes” can. I maintain that many of the illegals aren’t coming here for “social justice”, but for the “social injustice” of acting illegally to obtain opportunities at the economic cost of American workers and the social cost to their own citizens back home.
Finally, one is aware that a foreigner cannot own land in Mexico or a controlling interest in any enterprise there. Why? It’s exactly because the Mexican government is far more aware of the relative value of currency than are most Americans. It takes advantage of the currency differential but will not allow any foreigners to do it.
Not only is deporting 11 immigrants impractical (especially if the "good"ones are turning around and coming back), but it would serve to undermine elements of the US economy.
A useful case study is California, whose economy accounts for about 13 percent of U.S. gross domestic product and whose 2.6 million undocumented workers include almost a tenth of the state’s workforce.
For starters, the state’s farms and orchards, where a third to a half of agricultural workers are undocumented, would be crippled. So would their output, comprising more than half the fruits and vegetables consumed in this country. The labor market in construction, where about 14 percent of workers are undocumented, would be severely disrupted. Ditto for hospitality, child care and landscaping.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trumps-immigration-plan-would-wreck-havoc-on-us-society/2015/08/17/19703368-451d-11e5-8ab4-c73967a143d3_story.html
 
Unfortunately, I think in the days ahead, any sign of open support for Donald Trump is going to create alot of tension in certain areas of the country, as signs, stickers and buttons that read Trump, will be regarded as signs, stickers and buttons that read “I Hate Hispanics”.
I still think all of this is a net gain for the country, whichever party you support. We need to discuss this issue and work out reasonable policies and solutions. I am actually glad Trump has set off this bomb. It is forcing everyone to do their homework and come up with a response.
 
Path_Finder;13210645:
I think those who use an emotional compassionate argument should consider being the first ones to step up for the housing of illegal immigrants by using their own homes.
👍 Sure, have you heard about them bringing them into their own homes?
 
Not only is deporting 11 immigrants impractical (especially if the "good"ones are turning around and coming back), but it would serve to undermine elements of the US economy.
A useful case study is California, whose economy accounts for about 13 percent of U.S. gross domestic product and whose 2.6 million undocumented workers include almost a tenth of the state’s workforce.
To me, this argument is similar to the refusal of the DOJ to go after banks like HSBC for money-laundering because they were too big and it would hurt the economy.

(Side note: I have no solution, just this observation.)
 
But is it really unreasonable or impractical? Illegal aliens I have known go back and forth to their home countries regularly. Some have no intention of staying permanently; they want to raise money to be “ahead of the Joneses” back home and intend to go home.

Such people will almost certainly “self deport” eventually. The problem arises when and if they decide to return, which many do.

I realize people will think this is an awful thing to say, but deporting most illegals is not like sending them to hell. Mexico, for example, is not a third world country, and has a lower unemployment rate than does the U.S. Wages there are about 1/3 what they are here, but so is the cost of living. The average Mexican wage in Mexico is greater than in ANY Eastern European country.

The real attraction for those who work here is not so awfully much the opportunity to make a living as it is to take advantage of the relative value of the dollar to their own currency. The ability to work for three times the pay, then spend it at 1/3 American prices is a very attractive proposition. The real question, at least for Mexicans, isn’t whether they make a living or not, but whether coming here gives them an advantage over their neighbors back home. One might compare it to an American oil worker who goes to Kuwait for a few years to make the “big bucks”, then comes back to the U.S. having out-earned oil workers who stayed here and buys a bigger house and has a better car that the “stay at homes” can. I maintain that many of the illegals aren’t coming here for “social justice”, but for the “social injustice” of acting illegally to obtain opportunities at the economic cost of American workers and the social cost to their own citizens back home.

Finally, one is aware that a foreigner cannot own land in Mexico or a controlling interest in any enterprise there. Why? It’s exactly because the Mexican government is far more aware of the relative value of currency than are most Americans. It takes advantage of the currency differential but will not allow any foreigners to do it.
What I find amazing is one study I read said virtually all job growth, in this non-recovery, has gone to illegal aliens. And folks wonder why wages are not increasing while corporate profits are healthy.
 
Is it impractical to deport 11 million people? Yes, I would say so. The number of police and federal immigration officers needed to successfully deport 11 million people would be enormous, at a cost of very likely in the billions. How long do you think this would take to accomplish? 6 months? 30 years? I cannot think of any recent event in history to compare it to, can you? In a civilized nation? And this is from the wing of the party that wants to reduce government…

Mexicans are approximately 57-62% percent of all illegal immigrants.

Do you have documentation or statistics for this below comment - I only ask because I don’t see a vast majority of these folks headed back any time soon.

Not only is deporting 11 immigrants impractical (especially if the "good"ones are turning around and coming back), but it would serve to undermine elements of the US economy.
Of course it can be done. Those who say it can’t ignore the fact that vast numbers of illegal aliens go back and forth betwen this country and their home countries. I don’t know how many are out of the country at any one time, but it would not be a small number. How many Americans are out of the country for one reason or another at any one time? It’s a pretty sizeable number. It’s not so much a problem of getting a lot of cops to go hunt them down as it is to intercept them upon return and provide severe penalties for return. Its also a matter of allowing employers to actually investigate identification and penalizing them if they don’t.

And maybe the economy needs to adjust to a situation in which prices are not artificially depressed by the tacit importation of helot labor. How much more, for example, would your chicken sandwich cost if the poultry producers had to hire Americans at higher wages? Is nobody willing to bear that cost when we’re already bearing the cost of free education and all kinds of other benefits for the illegals? I think if people really knew the true cost in terms of higher taxes, an uncontrolled deficit, declining schools, crime and lower wages for Americans, they would pay more for the chicken sandwich and be glad to do it.

Trouble is, nobody tells the full truth about all of that; not even Trump. All we hear about is the “cost of deporting 11 million”. Nobody EVER talks about the fact that they haven’t been glued to the factory floors, and are actually easy to find if anybody is allowed to look. They’re more mobile by far than are Americans.
 
Of course it can be done. Those who say it can’t ignore the fact that vast numbers of illegal aliens go back and forth betwen this country and their home countries. I don’t know how many are out of the country at any one time, but it would not be a small number. How many Americans are out of the country for one reason or another at any one time? It’s a pretty sizeable number. It’s not so much a problem of getting a lot of cops to go hunt them down as it is to intercept them upon return and provide severe penalties for return. Its also a matter of allowing employers to actually investigate identification and penalizing them if they don’t.

And maybe the economy needs to adjust to a situation in which prices are not artificially depressed by the tacit importation of helot labor. How much more, for example, would your chicken sandwich cost if the poultry producers had to hire Americans at higher wages? Is nobody willing to bear that cost when we’re already bearing the cost of free education and all kinds of other benefits for the illegals? I think if people really knew the true cost in terms of higher taxes, an uncontrolled deficit, declining schools, crime and lower wages for Americans, they would pay more for the chicken sandwich and be glad to do it.

Trouble is, nobody tells the full truth about all of that; not even Trump. All we hear about is the “cost of deporting 11 million”. Nobody EVER talks about the fact that they haven’t been glued to the factory floors, and are actually easy to find if anybody is allowed to look. They’re more mobile by far than are Americans.
👍
 
Path_Finder;13210645:
I think those who use an emotional compassionate argument should consider being the first ones to step up for the housing of illegal immigrants by using their own homes.
My wife and I sponsored a family from El Salvador. They got here legally. It’s very risky to sponsor an immigrant. But my parents did it and I felt it was my duty to them to do it as well.

I’m not anti-immigration, but it sickens me that there are all these people who want to be “compassionate” at somebody else’s expense. “Oh, shove it on the taxpayers, or future generations by way of debt.” Nothing noble or compassionate about that, particularly when you consider that most illegals weren’t starving where they came from.

Americans really need to learn what currency differentials are and what a big deal they can be. For goodness sake, China just devalued its currency for the third time this summer. Why? Because it gives them a trade advantage. Meanwhile, the value of the dollar has been going up, meaning our products are more expensive overseas. But it also means it makes it more attractive for illegals to come into this country to work for increasingly valuable American dollars and spend them at home at lower prices than Americans pay.

And a lot of the money does go back to their home countries. Anybody who has seen Mexicans and Central Americans lined up at post office windows to send money orders back to the home country, would not doubt that for a minute.

And meanwhile, what’s the unemployment rate among black youth? Last I knew it was over 50%.
 
ringil;13211561:
My wife and I sponsored a family from El Salvador. They got here legally. It’s very risky to sponsor an immigrant. But my parents did it and I felt it was my duty to them to do it as well.

I’m not anti-immigration, but it sickens me that there are all these people who want to be “compassionate” at somebody else’s expense. “Oh, shove it on the taxpayers, or future generations by way of debt.” Nothing noble or compassionate about that, particularly when you consider that most illegals weren’t starving where they came from.

Americans really need to learn what currency differentials are and what a big deal they can be. For goodness sake, China just devalued its currency for the third time this summer. Why? Because it gives them a trade advantage. Meanwhile, the value of the dollar has been going up, meaning our products are more expensive overseas. But it also means it makes it more attractive for illegals to come into this country to work for increasingly valuable American dollars and spend them at home at lower prices than Americans pay.

And a lot of the money does go back to their home countries. Anybody who has seen Mexicans and Central Americans lined up at post office windows to send money orders back to the home country, would not doubt that for a minute.

And meanwhile, what’s the unemployment rate among black youth? Last I knew it was over 50%.
Isn’t one of the problems with legal immigration that it often takes several years (I’ve heard as many as 10 to 20 years) for immigrants to be able to come to this country? Maybe if the waiting period were shortened, it would encourage more people to take the legal route.

In regard to your comment about ‘compassionate’ people’s behaving this way toward illegal immigrants at the taxpayer’s expense, this may be so but it is also at their own and their family’s expense if they are taxpayers. This is not meant as an excuse to volunteer others’ money, but rather an observation that the so-called “do-gooders” are willing to foot the bill as well.

Are you suggesting that illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from black youth? Perhaps, but I cannot help recalling the same outcry among settled minority groups with regard to legal immigrants for each successive generation. Illegal immigration may have contributed in part to the higher unemployment rate among black youth, but the situation is no doubt more multidetermined than that.

A final observation. Liberals in particular often wonder whether the same negative reaction to illegal immigrants would occur if the majority of illegals were NOT Hispanic. IOW, is there an underlying ethnic prejudice responsible for many of the protestations (not from you, but in general), which has been disguised in terms of pointing to crime rates and unskilled labor?
 
Exclusive — AZ Sheriff Takes Dr. Ben Carson on Helicopter Tour Of Cartel Sites
FLORENCE, Arizona — “Nobody does,” Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu told Breitbart News when asked who has operational control of this region of the United States of America.
Babeu was on a helicopter tour of Mexican drug cartel scout locations in caves in the side of mountains throughout the desert about 70 miles inside the U.S. border. Essentially, that means U.S. sovereignty is gone for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of square miles throughout the American southwest.
Babeu was leading the helicopter tour with Dr. Ben Carson, a GOP presidential candidate, after briefing Carson on everything happening at the border.
Among other things that Babeu showed Carson and Breitbart News on this helicopter tour were how this far inside the border on high ground there are scores of scout sites where cartel operatives serve as lookouts for smugglers bringing drugs, people and other contraband into the country.
breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/exclusive-az-sheriff-takes-dr-ben-carson-on-helicopter-tour-of-cartel-sites/

We aren’t even controlling parts of our country. Also, lax borders encourages the people smugglers more and more.

In the olden days, there was a soft spot for many who came illegally, it was mainly about finding a better job; those days are gone. All kinds of things happen in the border region. A bit of a no man’s land.

At a minimum, as they say, secure the border, a wall and then, decide what to do with those that are here. As it is, you decide on amnesty or to allow legal status, then another wave will come and more after that.

Let alone, is it not widely thought, some strains of influenza came to the USA through this illegal immigration and some American children may have even died from those strains? At the least, they got very sick.
 
The hordes of illegal immigrant minors entering the U.S. are bringing serious diseases—including swine flu, dengue fever, possibly Ebola virus and tuberculosis—that present a danger to the American public as well as the Border Patrol agents forced to care for the kids, according to a U.S. Congressman who is also medical doctor.
This has created a “severe and dangerous” crisis, says the Georgia lawmaker, Phil Gingrey. Most of the Unaccompanied Alien Children (UAC) are coming from Central America and they’re importing infectious diseases considered to be largely eradicated in this country. Additionally, many of the migrants lack basic vaccinations such as those to prevent chicken pox or measles, leaving America’s young children and the elderly particularly susceptible, Gingrey reveals.
judicialwatch.org/blog/2014/07/illegal-alien-minors-spreading-tb-ebola-dengue-swine-flu/

And even reported in the Daily Beast:

thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/02/there-are-now-two-cases-of-the-h1n1-swine-flu-virus-along-the-u-s-mexico-border.html

thinkprogress.org/immigration/2014/07/11/3456878/are-central-american-child-refugees-bringing-in-diseases/

And Think Progress, hardly a conservative news outlet; I’m pretty sure some American children died over these diseases that came in.
 
A final observation. Liberals in particular often wonder whether the same negative reaction to illegal immigrants would occur if the majority of illegals were NOT Hispanic. IOW, is there an underlying ethnic prejudice responsible for many of the protestations (not from you, but in general), which has been disguised in terms of pointing to crime rates and unskilled labor?
Of course, the left wonders this, accuse others of bigotry, not much up their sleeve really.

Conservatives wonder if with liberals, they should take responsibility if illegal immigrants kill someone like Kate Steinle, if an African American boy in St. Louis dies from a sickness that may have come into this country over the border.

Oh, and the majority of illegals are Hispanic are we saying?? So, I thought we were talking about a melting pot, glad that is somewhat an admission that we are NOT talking about a melting pot; but a change in demographics.

And no, the rest of the nation should not become a 1 party system like California and every state have senators like Feinstein and Boxer and a Governor like Jerry Brown.

Now, who is discriminating against whom?
 
Before demonizing undocumented children, we should look at the facts: The vast majority of Central Americans are vaccinated against all these diseases. Governments concerned about health, and good parents investing in their kids, have made Central American kids better-vaccinated than Texan kids. We fear them not because they are actually sick, but because of powerful anti-immigration narratives that link foreigners to disease.
Consider, for example, Guatemala. According to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), Guatemalan kids are more likely than Texans to be immunized for most infectious diseases. Guatemala has universal health care. Vaccines are 100 percent funded by the government.
By comparison, one in six kids in Texas is uninsured, and even insured families often must pay for vaccination. That means that many Texas kids fall behind on vaccinations, or miss them altogether when their family can’t afford a doctor’s visit. Other families refuse vaccination.
Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet, a Fox News commentator and former director of the ultra-conservative political group Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, writes in the McAllen Monitor that measles is among the “diseases the United States had controlled or virtually eradicated” that are “carried across the border by this tsunami of illegals.”
Fact check: UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That’s better than American kids (92 percent).
Furthermore, it’s absurd to claim that the U.S. has eradicated measles while Central America has not. In fact, measles outbreaks have resurged in some American cities. By contrast, according to the World Health Organization, neither Guatemala nor Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.
texasobserver.org/disease-threat-immigrant-children-wildly-overstated/
 
Of course, the left wonders this, accuse others of bigotry, not much up their sleeve really.

Conservatives wonder if with liberals, they should take responsibility if illegal immigrants kill someone like Kate Steinle, if an African American boy in St. Louis dies from a sickness that may have come into this country over the border.

Oh, and the majority of illegals are Hispanic are we saying?? So, I thought we were talking about a melting pot, glad that is somewhat an admission that we are NOT talking about a melting pot; but a change in demographics.

And no, the rest of the nation should not become a 1 party system like California and every state have senators like Feinstein and Boxer and a Governor like Jerry Brown.

Now, who is discriminating against whom?
It is not an admission but a fact that the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic/Latino. There are illegals from other countries as well but most are Hispanic, and Mexican in particular. The term “melting pot” is from the late 1960’s and has not been used for many years. Today we talk about identity and diversity counterbalanced by different forms of assimilation to the mainstream culture. Yes, there has been a rather dramatic shift in demographics in the U.S. We are no longer a majority Caucasian culture, but why should that be a problem? My point, however, is that for some (not you) this IS the main problem, based on White European cultural identity which they feel has been slipping away.
 
An interesting article; at the same time, I would think the CDC would be an authoritative source, the Center of Disease Control:
In straightforward defiance against the White House position of non-transparency, previous communication from the Center for Disease Control discovered Tuesday acknowledged that 97 percent of the measles found in United States this year could be attributed to “importations from at least 18 countries.”
Soon, after school doors opened this semester, doctors and hospitals across the country began tackling massive flare-ups of infectious diseases and severe respiratory illness among children. Experts have called these outbreak unprecedented.
“It’s worse in terms of scope of critically ill children who require intensive care,” noted Children’s Mercy Hospital’s division director for Infectious Diseases, Dr. Mary Anne Jackson. I’ve practiced for 30 years in pediatrics, and I’ve never seen anything quite like this.”
While analyzing hundreds of documents, articles, and releases for this article, this examiner discovered on Tuesday that the** Center for Disease Control (CDC)** disclosed in a May 29, 2014 press release that “nearly all cases of measles this year have been associated with international travel by unvaccinated people.” As thousands of illegal immigrants from South and Central America crossed over the U.S.-Mexico border,** the CDC **recognized that this was “the largest number of measles cases in the United States in the first five months of a year since 1994.”
By the end of May, CDC also declared that 97 percent of the measles cases “were associated with importations from at least 18 countries. More than one in seven cases has led to hospitalization.”
examiner.com/article/cdc-admitted-disease-imported-as-states-data-reveals-illegal-immigrant-links

CDC
 
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